<ol>
<li><p>I will absolutely back up Pizzagirl on her house being very straight laced. AND they're one of the "better" houses on campus.</p></li>
<li><p>It sounds more and more, upon further reflection, that your view of Greeks is heavily influenced by the greek systems in the south (for more on the differences between Northern and Southern greeks, check out greekchat.com). Really, honestly, there's a big, big difference.</p></li>
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RacinReaver, ... ummm... Carnegie Mellon football.
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<p>You mean the DIII team that's had non-losing seasons for around the past 20 years? Heck, one of the years I was there they were actually undefeated through regular season play. That's an achievement for any team, especially one which isn't allowed to do any sort of recruiting in the style of DI or DII play.</p>
<p>And, heck, while at CMU one of my good friends, a Catholic guy, joined the Jewish fraternity. Are you sure the fraternities only select certain people, or could it also be that only certain people rush each fraternity? I imagine at a lot of schools it's similar to the undergraduate house system here at Caltech where each house attracts its own type of students. Each house has its own personality, and the people that choose to join those houses tend to share in that attitude.</p>
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Too...Republican
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<p>Yeah, if you're visiting UVA, SMU, and TCU...</p>
<p>whats wrong with being too... republican</p>
<p>pnthrs,</p>
<p>I've been a registered Independent for three decades. I voted for John Anderson in 1980, just to give you an example. I'm a fairly conservative guy, but I'd vote for a left wing, socialist commie before I'd vote for a Republican. George W. Bush, the ultimate overgrown frat boy, personifies everything I think of when i think of Republicans and Greek life on campus. Revolting. Nuff said.</p>
<p>But as a 17 year old college freshman many years ago, I didn't quite get why I should subject myself to the whims of 20 and 21 year old upperclassmen who still had pimples. Why should I beg to be accepted into some "club?" Why should I let someone boss me around, make me go through some stupid machinations to be "accepted?" I never quite understood why other kids were willing to do that. It may have been harsh, but back then I assumed they all had self-esteem problems, or a huge need to be led, not unlike inner city kids who join gangs. They're looking for an identity.</p>
<p>Greek Life just feels very "cultish" to me. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's my sense of it.</p>
<p>There are so many wonderful colleges and universities out there without Greek life, or without significant Greek involvement, that if non-Greek is your predilection, I don't see why you have to go any further.</p>
<p>You sound incredibly bitter.</p>
<p>what's wrong with being a Republican? I've got one Presbyterian and one Jewish parent and I'm upper middle class, and from the Northeast.....and I support McCain and the Republican Party. Does that mean I'm mentally deficient or something?</p>
<p>Plainsman: Why did you ask the question if you refuse to listen to anybody's answers...including first hand experiance from people who don't like the steryotypical Greek scene any more than you do?</p>
<p>Once again: you're allowed to think anything you like. But keep an open mind, and while there's nothing wrong with being an advisor, I think you should also let your daughter find her own path in regards to these things.</p>
<p>"not unlike inner city kids who join gangs. They're looking for an identity."</p>
<p>off topic PERHAPS, but my impression has been a sense of "family", safety and protection.</p>
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But as a 17 year old college freshman many years ago, I didn't quite get why I should subject myself to the whims of 20 and 21 year old upperclassmen who still had pimples. Why should I beg to be accepted into some "club?" Why should I let someone boss me around, make me go through some stupid machinations to be "accepted?" I never quite understood why other kids were willing to do that. It may have been harsh, but back then I assumed they all had self-esteem problems, or a huge need to be led, not unlike inner city kids who join gangs. They're looking for an identity.</p>
<p>Greek Life just feels very "cultish" to me. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's my sense of it.
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<p>I have no doubt that on some campuses, in some settings, that's exactly what Greek life is -- and that it resembles Animal House. But I don't think you're listening to what some of us are telling you -- that there are houses / campuses where what you are describing is not the case. I never begged to be accepted into a club -- I went through rush, met a lot of new people, gravitated towards some people more than others -- no different from how life generally works out, no? No one "bossed me around," and I never had to go through any machinations to be "accepted." </p>
<p>In many regards, going to a university where many of us were quite studious in high school, joining a frat / sorority gave us some structured socializing opportunities -- built-in ways to meet new people, meet new members of the opposite sex, have a built-in network of sorts. Do you belong to an alumni network for a college or a company you've worked for, Plainsmen? It serves somewhat of the same role. If I were to move to a new city, I could join the alumni group of my sorority and have a built-in network. That's a nice thing, not a bad thing.</p>
<p>There are also many ways in which Greek life can lead to leadership opportunities. I myself think that I went from being shy and retiring to being able to be outspoken and assertive, to set a vision and lead others to it, to manage activities and so forth through the leadership opportunities in my house. Don't underestimate philanthropy as well. My school raises hundreds of thousands of dollars for philanthropies, much of it due to the Greek system. I was involved with Student Blood Services and it was always easier to get the Greeks to donate, because they would (in a friendly way) cheer each other on, have contests to see what house would give most, etc. </p>
<p>It's your prerogative not to like Animal House fraternity life. I don't either (except as a movie). The MTV sorority show leaves me cold because it bears no relationship to reality. Greek life reflects the caliber of students at a university. Students at a university where partying rules will find partying opportunities whether Greek or not Greek. Students at a university where academics are paramount will still find academics paramount.</p>
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Students at a university where academics are paramount will still find academics paramount.
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<p>Which is, of course, why Greek average GPAs are almost universally above university averages.</p>
<p>I'm still in High School, but my oldest brother (he went to the University of Washington) had very bad experiences with the fraternity scene there. He was under a lot of pressure to drink and whatnot, and he ended up leaving. Obviously, this might not be representative of all fraternities, but I think it shows that there definitely are bad eggs. I think it really depends on the school and what kind of people go there.</p>
<p>"and I support McCain and the Republican Party. Does that mean I'm mentally deficient or something?"
No, but it certainly indicates it.</p>
<p>Pizzagirl, I have three university alma maters. I'm not active in any of the alumni networks. The way I figure it, I don't owe them anything. I paid for my education out of my own pocket. Why should I keep paying for decades afterwards? </p>
<p>pinkpineapple, I didn't say you or anyone else was "mentally deificient." I did say I find George W. Bush to be a revolting, overgrown frat boy. When I think of Greek life I think of George W. Bush and Republicans. The pressure to conform, to follow the chosen leader. To obey. It's hard for me to separate the two--Republicans and Greek Life. I don't know why. </p>
<p>Anyway, I don't think I can be objective on this topic with my D, so what I've decided to do is try to steer her to colleges where Greek Life is nonexistent or lowly regarded. Letting her go to a college/university where Greek Life is big and then convince her not to join would be too difficult, if not impossible. If she goes to a college where Greek life does not exist, I don't have to worry.</p>
<p>Thanks for all the opinions and advice. I guess I just can't get over my disdain for such organizations.</p>
<p>You/your D can always be suspicious of Greek life and go to a school that has one. The likelihood that somebody on your D's hall will be anti-Greek life too is pretty high at any college she chooses.</p>
<p>Most of my male and female high school peers joined Greek organizations their first year. My impression was that they were not bullied into it or bullied while in it (I'm thinking of schools like NYU, WashU, MIT, and Cornell) but that they were looking for an organization that gave them a social and extracurricular outlet, and they found one right away.</p>
<p>On my end, I was a little disappointed that they didn't explore more with being independent and not having those comforts from the outset to find their own unique niche rather than joining a preset one. But, then again, maybe their social needs are different from mine. Maybe they wanted ritual, rah-rah, t-shirts, secrecy, sisterhood/brotherhood, hosting parties. I do fine without that. (Though I happen to be an active member of my residential college, and somebody could make the argument that my residential college is like a frat/sorority).</p>
<p>The only negative story I can share is that two of my good friends wanted to join a specific fraternity/sorority and weren't let in. It was a disappointment to them and to their self-esteem. But students get rejected from opportunities all the time.</p>
<p>Anyway, as others have said before, the Greek system is not inherently bad and students who join don't do so for inherently bad reasons.</p>
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Anyway, I don't think I can be objective on this topic with my D, so what I've decided to do is try to steer her to colleges where Greek Life is nonexistent or lowly regarded. Letting her go to a college/university where Greek Life is big and then convince her not to join would be too difficult, if not impossible. If she goes to a college where Greek life does not exist, I don't have to worry.
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<p>Geez. Mind control helicopter much?</p>
<p>Just another thought for all of you. I have a slight anti-Greek bias, as mentioned above. I recently was asked to interview a legal intern whose undergrad activities were all Greek (Social Chairman, Membership Chairman, Chapter Vice President, etc.). I was really not impressed. Someone with a favorable Greek experience/bias would probably have been much more impressed with all of these activities, and drawn a positive conclusion. Just like work in politics (volunteering for a Republican or Democratic candidate or congressperson), activities in college says something about you to future job interviewers or Grad School Admissions officers. They might have a favorable impression from your choices...or a negative one. Biases can have the potential to affect your kids' future either way. </p>
<p>We warn our kids about Facebook and MySpace, but we might also want to warn our kids that their choice of activities can be used to define them.</p>
<p>""and I support McCain and the Republican Party. Does that mean I'm mentally deficient or something?"
No, but it certainly indicates it."</p>
<p>Okay, this is where I get confused. If somebody with an extremely good shot at a top college, good scores and grades, ACTUAL POLITICAL AWARENESS not only of American issues but of GLOBAL PROBLEMS chooses to be a Republican, what's wrong with that? Isn't it better than a kid who knows absolutely nothing about the world blindly becoming a Democrat because mommy and daddy are? Now this could be reversed obviously, but I want to know.</p>
<p>Haven't read the whole thread, so apologies if this is repetitious. I also chose a school in part because it had no greek life. I didn't want greek life and it is as legitimate a criteria as size, weather, location, etc. to want or not want a greek presence. I dont see it as "narrow minded". I see it as an aspect of college life that is enjoyable to some and not to others.</p>