Is UMich - Ann Arbor at par with the Ivy?

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Michigan
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<p>That’s all interesting cdz512. I seem to recall a poster who got this thread really going by saying that Michigan wasn’t in the same league as ANY Ivy school.</p>

<p>“No. Umich is not on par with the ivies.” </p>

<p>You guys both make me laugh. The OP originally was asking about the graduate program. Personally, I think all of the rankings are a bunch of bunk designed to sell magazines. At the UG level, no public school can be rated too highly on USNWR. It’s set up that way. I don’t think any Ivies are overrated. I just think posters put too much faith in a faulty system and feel that somehow makes their biases more believable.</p>

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<p>Peace out, I have to leave, it has been nice debating with you guys, I’m going to catch some Z’s</p>

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<p>I hope you think more clearly when you wake up. LOL. Just teasing you cdz512. ;-)</p>

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<p>Oh UM isn’t at par with the entire Ivy, yes I do agree to a certain degree that it at par with some, Brown, Dartmouth, maybe Cornell. But not all. Also the OP asked for equivalent school like Stanford, Duke, JHU, MIT</p>

<p>Yes I agree, ranking means little, and it can go both ways, we never know for sure if UM is the same as Ivy or not, it really is personal.</p>

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<p>That was the original point I was making cdz512. By the way, Michigan is also a peer of JHU and Duke as well according to the USNWR. ;-)</p>

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<p>Before I fully leave (yes I lied I’m still here but this is my last post, I had to do this)
Hey rjkofnovi, you live in Novi right? Course you do, lets meet up for lunch, I know this place called Olive Garden.
I’m from Novi too. =) For real</p>

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<p>Actually I don’t live in Novi anymore. Just too much work to change everything over to a new screen name. By the way, I hate the Olive Garden. It’s way overrated. LOL.</p>

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<p>“That was the original point I was making cdz512. By the way, Michigan is also a peer of JHU and Duke as well according to the USNWR. ;-)”</p>

<p>Where does it say that?</p>

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<p>Try post #13. Now go to bed!</p>

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<p>“Alexandre, that SAT range for admitted students at Michigan is still a full 100 points lower on each end of the range. I would call that significant.”</p>

<p>Giants, 100 points out of 1600 is significant (50 points per section) but not large. However, 100 points out of 2400 (30 points per section) is actually negligible. Out of 1600, Michigan’s average SAT score for admitted students is 1385 and Penn’s average SAT score for admitted students is 1435. I would compare SAT averages for enrolled students, but Penn does not publish that data, so in order to compare apples to apples, I have dug up Michigan’s students admitted stats. </p>

<p>[Penn</a> Admissions: Incoming Class Profile](<a href=“http://www.admissionsug.upenn.edu/profile/]Penn”>http://www.admissionsug.upenn.edu/profile/)</p>

<p>[Office</a> of Undergraduate Admissions: About Michigan](<a href=“http://www.admissions.umich.edu/about/]Office”>Explore & Visit | University of Michigan Office of Undergraduate Admissions)</p>

<p>[Admission</a> Statistics | Columbia University Office of Undergraduate Admissions](<a href=“http://www.studentaffairs.columbia.edu/admissions/applications/stats.php]Admission”>http://www.studentaffairs.columbia.edu/admissions/applications/stats.php)</p>

<p>Columbia’s stats for admitted students are interesting. They only include stats of students admitted into Columbia College and the college of Engineering. What of the students admitted into the Columbia undergraduate programs of General Studies and Nursing?</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.columbia.edu/cu/opir/abstract/admissions_2006-2008.htm[/url]”>http://www.columbia.edu/cu/opir/abstract/admissions_2006-2008.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Combined, that adds up to 650 unaccounted students. I wonder how the average SAT scores of those 650 students (35% of Columbia’s overall student body) would affect the overall SAT averages of the university. Too bad Michigan cannot resort to the same “fuzzy math”. Michigan’s mean SATscore would probably be higher if Michigan only reported SAT averages of LSA and Engineering students. </p>

<p>“(I’m not sure what superscoring is, would it account for that?)”</p>

<p>Superscoring means that if an applicant takes the SAT several times, a university takes the highest score in each section. Most private universities superscore and report their SAT averages on a superscored base. Most public universities do not superscore and take the highest overall score in a single sitting. For example, if student X takes the SAT three times and gets a 600 CR, 710 M and 650 W the first time, a 660 CR, 660 M and 660 CR the second time and a 630 CR, 690 M and 720 W the third time, a private university like Columbia or Penn would report that student as having a 2090 on the SAT whereas Michigan would report that student as having a 2040. </p>

<p>“All I’m trying to say here is that there aren’t SO MANY (50% of) students here who are Ivy-caliber.”</p>

<p>Again Giants, I disagree. In fact, I think 50% is on the lower end of the estimate. If you take the average GPA, class rank, SAT and ACT results of the top 50% of Michigan’s student body enrolled in those three colleges, I am willing to bet you would have statistics very comparable to those at Brown, Cornell and Penn.</p>

<p>“4) If you look at UM’s website (Office of Undergraduate Admissions: About Michigan) it also stated that “Middle 50th Percentile of the Admitted Class” not enrolled class.
So, your statement is false, especially because it comes from their website.”</p>

<p>cdz, whenever I post statistics on Michigan (and Brown and Cornell), I use infornmation from their Common Data Set. The Common Data Set only lists statistics of enrolled students, not of admitted students. Columbia and Penn do not have Common Data Sets and the data they share is purely for admitted students. </p>

<p>And cdz, when it comes to average salaries, one must be careful and interpret the data properly. First of all, most Ivy League alumni live in the Northeast (primarily in the NYC and Boston areas). Most Stanford alums live in the West Coast, primarily in LA and the Bay area. Roughly half of Michigan alums live in the Midwest, primarily in Chicago and Detroit. The cost of living in the Midwest is significantly lower than the cost of living in the West or East coasts. Just as an example, for $2,000/monthm a fresh college graduate can rent a pretty nice appartment in the Midwest. $2,000 won’t get you much in the East or West coasts. For $300,000, a family of 4 can buy a reasonably nice home in a good neighborhood in the midwest. In the East or West coasts, such a home would probably cost upwards of $500,000. If you adjust for cost of living (and compare alums working in similar careers), I am fairly confident that Michigan alums will earn as much as their Ivy League comarades.</p>

<p>At any rate, all this debate about quality of student body isn’t answering the question the OP has asked. Is Michigan as an institution, and not its students, on par with the Ivies? I say yes. When you look at an academic institution in its totality, Michigan is comparable to some Ivies, most notably Cornell and Penn.</p>

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<p>Regarding the OP, Michigan is a peer to Harvard and Stanford at the graduate level.</p>

<p>Engineering? Yes (to S)
Law? Yes (to H and S)
Social Sciences? Yes (to H and S)
Medicine? Yes (to H)</p>

<p>In fact, since my background is mostly sociology, Michigan, Harvard and Stanford are ranked similarly in the field.</p>

<p>The list goes on…</p>

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<p>Alexandre, were have you been? I have been holding up this thread for hours. You aren’t going to use that, “I was sleeping” excuse again are you? ;-)</p>

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<p>I apologize for my absence rjk, I was in fact sleeping. It is only 7:25 in the morning here. Besides, I have two full time jobs; consulting and a lovely wife! hehe! Well, consulting is a job, the wife is pure joy, but boy is she time-consuming!</p>

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<p>I don’t disagree that Michigan, as an entire institution, is comparable to some Ivy League programs, and even better in certain fields. But unless you find a way to counter my observations and interactions with the average individual in the undergraduate student body during my time at Michigan, I stand by my opinion. You can throw around all the high school GPA and class rank statistics you want. The average UM undergrad cannot touch the average Ivy Leaguer, from my personal observations.</p>

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<p>When did we allow USNWR and its ridiculous use of alumni giving rate in rankings to affect our impressions of excellence in education? UMichigan may not be in the top 15 or top 10 of the USNWR undergrad rankings for the nation, but that certainly does NOT mean that it is not one of the 15 or 10 best schools in the U.S.</p>

<p>If we are going to rely on a single source for our perceptions of schools lets at least use one that doesn’t create rankings solely to create a profit…</p>

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<p>Giants, you are entitled to your opinion, but then you must stress that it is an opinion. There is very little evidence to support your opinion. I assume you studied at both Michigan and an Ivy League as a basis for your opinion.</p>

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<p>UM is certainly on peers with the Ivies from a certain perspective. For example, in terms of quality of faculty, laboratory space, academic peer ratings, gross endowment, international reputation, research, etc. Michigan matches and even exceeds some Ivies (and other top schools). And for graduate school, there are few places better. I go to this school, and I’m very proud of it!</p>

<p>However, I definitely concede that the average student at Michigan is certainly not the average student at Harvard. I don’t think anyone here is trying to argue that! Of course this must be the case due to Michigan’s status as a large public flagship - its duty to the state & nation is to admit as many students as possible that are qualified, and that it can support. This will definitely result in a weaker body than the hyper-selective privates, but I think it’s a noble cause that sets UM apart. It certainly doesn’t make it an “inferior” university, and if anything it’s amazing that Michigan can post such great numbers given its size. But if you shrink Michigan’s undergraduate class to say its top 5000 students, the size of a school like Princeton - now the caliber of students is comparable.</p>

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<p>Very well stated elixirs. I couldn’t agree with you more.</p>

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<p>“Giants, you are entitled to your opinion, but then you must stress that it is an opinion. There is very little evidence to support your opinion.”</p>

<p>In my previous post, I used the words “my opinion” and “personal observations”.</p>

<p>I actually am currently an upperclassmen at UM, and have not attended an Ivy League school. I attended a top 100 ranked public high school (let’s not get into another rankings argument, the fact that my high school is ranked is not my point). My high school sent at least 50 kids to Ivies or their peers (Stanford, MIT, CalTech, etc.). I also happen to know several other individuals that attend Ivy League schools or their peers that did not go to my high school. Taking the average intelligence of the individuals I know that currently attend the Ivies or their peers and measuring them against the average undergraduate I have encountered during my time at UM, the average Ivy kid wins.</p>

<p>Yes, my argument comes from my own personal experience, and it is my opinion, I fully admit that. I also happen to know several people at U of M that share my opinion, based on their own personal observations and experience. It is very hard for me to accept your argument, given my personal experience. Now, I am not trying to say that the average UM undergrad is astronomically inferior to the average Ivy kid. The average UM kid is actually quite intelligent, just not quite at the level of the average Ivy kid.</p>

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<p>giants, I have actually attended an Ivy. I spent two whole years there as a graduate student. I even TA’d and mentored their undergrads when I was there. I did not see a significant difference in the quality of the student body.</p>