<p>Well, Walt. When you post on a message forum you get what you pay for! You don’t get to dictate what people post in response, especially when you don’t keep up with your own thread.
The question you posed was bound to generate some heated discussion on this forum, which has a particular fondness for debating the merits of paying a lot for more selective schools. </p>
<p>Like I said, everyones entitled to their opinion, as for keeping up with my thread, maybe it’s not something I do all the time, as you can see it’s my 9th post not my 16,013 like you, sorry, I did not get the memo of rules when posting. And like you said, it is my post, so i can try and keep the thread on point like I am doing. Thanks for your comments anyway</p>
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<p>Unless you are absolutely sure they wish to pursue one of a very small handful of career paths (IB, Wall Street Law) NOT ONE DANGED UNIVERSITY IS WORTH 60K+ a year. Period! The fact that we have been manipulated and mind f’d into believing it is worth spending 250k for an undergrad degree just proves the general gullibility of the masses. Really, good grief.</p>
<p>If you have the means to play this kind of $$ (and yes, for the record, we could) and you choose to do so, well wheeeee go for it. If it means living on a shoe string for decades to make a child’s ‘dream come true’ then what other dreams have been put on hold in the process? Frankly, the pressure put on a child who knows how much their parents have to sacrifice to give them their dream is an unreasonable burden.</p>
<p>I guess the answer is, it’s worth it if you can afford it and if it’s worth it to you. It’s your money and your daughter. Ask a group like this one and you’ll get a lot of people saying no, it’s not worth it, no way, nohow. For most of us, it wouldn’t be worth it. But it’s your money. If it’s worth it to you then go for it.</p>
<p>If there’s a Villanova thread, how about going on there and asking? </p>
<p>I called VU admissions and asked if there was someone who I could talk to, as you can imagine, I explained VU was her #1, how happy she was when we opened the acceptance video in her Nova account, I gave it my best shot, but the reply was simply “you need to do what’s best for your family”; Villanova does not match offers…</p>
<p>We have discussed the issue over the weekend with our D. She is going to visit other University’s again, and we have not said “No” to VU, what we have said is…We will co sign for whatever you need to go to the school you want, we can only give X amount, the rest is on you. If X pays for it all, great, if X pays half, then you need to finance the balance. D understands and is weighing the fact that there might be loans and this is all part of growing up and making important decisions that have future impact. She is cogitating the entire situation. We never gave D or S a price range they needed to stay within, we explained what we could do and the rest was on them. My son wanted to go to BU (accepted) but when we explained the numbers , debt, etc…HE choose to go to Drexel and will graduate with very little debt. If D choses a different school, she will have the same result, but I personally think she will be a Wildcat. </p>
<p>I don’t think anyone can answer the question of “is it worth it?” for you because that depends so heavily on any number of factors specific to you. </p>
<p>As most people here are suggesting, Villanova is not objectively worth 100K more than St. Joe’s. It isn’t going to increase your D’s earning potential by that amount, especially if she goes into teaching, and the academic offerings, while superior, probably aren’t worth paying that much extra for either.</p>
<p>On the other hand, it is possible that the other schools will not be sufficiently challenging for a student of your D’s caliber - even Villanova was a pretty safe choice – and, of course, there are other intangibles that may be worth something to you and to her.</p>
<p>So, IMO, it comes down to your financial position. If you are making enough that you could comfortably, even if not painlessly, send your D to Villanova without going into your 401K, adopting a Spartan lifestyle, or saddling her or you with huge loans, I might say to go for it. True, Villanova isn’t Harvard, but clearly, your daughter wasn’t interested in the super elites anyway, and Villanova is substantially better than the other schools she did apply to. I don’t think refusing to pay something you can afford on the principle that it isn’t “worth” it, in pure economic terms, is necessarily the best option. A Ferrari isn’t objectively worth that much more than a Honda, but not everyone who purchases one is being foolish, and a four year college experience is a lot more important than the car you drive.</p>
<p>But, if paying for Villanova would be a hardship, even if you could theoretically do it, then I agree with those who say that it just isn’t a smart thing to do. This is especially true if your EFC is below the cost of attendance and Villanova isn’t agreeing to meet it. </p>
<p>Basically, if you have the money, you have the luxury of deciding whether or not it is worth it TO YOU and to your daughter, even if it isn’t worth it by other metrics. If you don’t have the money (and “I could manage to come up with the money, but it would really hurt” is, to me, not having the money), then it isn’t worth it in any case. </p>
<p>This looks like it is one of the first of the seasonal series of posts by parents or students who are facing a letdown when the admission to the “dream school” comes with an unaffordable price, while the safeties were just disappointing throw-ins that the student does not really like or fit well at for some reason. Other variants are admission only to safeties that the student did not really care for to begin with, or a complete shut-out due to not having any safeties.</p>
<p>I.e. the application list was made naively, and the parents and students are now realizing (too late) that the application list could have been made better (check the net price calculators, make sure that the safeties are schools that the student actually likes, discuss the price limit early, agree that admission without enough financial aid or scholarships = rejection, etc.).</p>
<p>You calculated that your daughter would have a loan payment of $1500 a month after taxes to attend Villanova.</p>
<p>The answer to your question is obvious. </p>
<p>Mooops…</p>
<p>I suggested that they contact Nova and see if they’ll provide any merit since she has other merit offers.</p>
<p>I suggested that they find out if any other good Catholic schools will still offer her merit…such as UDayton. </p>
<p>I don’t know why you implied that I didn’t offer any suggestions.</p>
<p>Nova is a very good school, but it’s not worth crazy family gymnastics and big loans to afford so a child can become a teacher or virtually any other career. (I’ll probably get flamed for that, but oh well)</p>
<p>@sally305
"
By the way, I am a big believer in “fit.” I just don’t think ANY 18-year-old can have only one path to success that is dependent on his or her “dream” working out re college. As mom2collegekids says, there are dozens of schools at which the OP’s niece could thrive. It seems so many parents nowadays have to deal with a massive sense of entitlement among their kids (of course, they are partly to blame for their kids being this way).</p>
<p>Adaptability is a good “life skill” more kids should develop, in my opinion.
"</p>
<p>I completely agree…especially with that last line.</p>
<p>"We will co sign for whatever you need to go to the school you want, we can only give X amount, the rest is on you. If X pays for it all, great, if X pays half, then you need to finance the balance. "</p>
<p>oh gag! No 18 year old truly understands the impact of such debt. Part of me hopes she takes you up on your cosigning offer…and then she defaults and you can pay for not putting your big boy pants on.</p>
<p>Actually OP it is your question that is NOT obvious. Which is it?</p>
<p>1) Is a Villanova education $100,000 better than Widener?</p>
<p>2) Should I borrow some unknown amount of money from my unknown balance of my 401 K at my unknown age so my daughter gets to attend her #1 choice college?</p>
<p>3) Should I knowingly allow my daughter to graduate with a $1500 monthly loan that she will have to repay upon graduation?</p>
<p>4) why does choosing a university have to be about cost rather than about where my daughter fits in the best?</p>
<p>Now my question.</p>
<p>Is the OP really Mooops posing a question so that we can all see how wonderfully outside the box he thinks while the rest of us buddies are all just unimaginative, defeatist, bargain shopping , first class living red herring throwing shlubbs that are sad we didn’t pay the big bucks for the dream school?</p>
<p>I added “shlubbs” the rest of the descriptors are compliments of mooops. </p>
<p>If not, I even feel a teeny tiny bit bad for Mooops having taken all his time to chastise us all when the OP had no interest in hearing anything he was saying anyway.</p>
<p>No family should plan on straining themselves financially, because there is way too much risk that something unexpected will arise. How many families had planned ahead for the Great Recession – let alone accidents, lawsuits, becoming a victim of crime, grandparents in need of assistance, etc? Every family should have emergency funds set aside, and some margin of error in planning their finances. </p>
<p>With an affordable offer on the table from St. Joes’, I suggest that Widener should be off the table. St. Joes has some nice facilities, and I imagine they probably treat their students much better than some of the state universities. I’d spend time checking out their education major.</p>
<p>A family should also keep in mind that a merit offer will not increase with inflation. It is a flat offer. If tuition, room and board goes up $8 K a year over the 4 years, that is the family’s responsibility. In comparison, for the few universities that truly meet 100% of need, the aid will increase with increased costs (assuming the family’s finances remain unchanged).</p>
<p>Also, an education major needs to complete student teaching according to an approved schedule, after completing education prerequisites. I believe that would prevent graduating in 3 years from any college. </p>
<p>OP- ask your D to research the entry level and average teaching salaries in places she wants to live- my guess is that if she’s tied to your local area, the fact that a HS chemistry teacher in Palo Alto can make 100K per year isn’t going to be especially relevant to her circumstances. Then you can help her figure out where a $1500 per month loan payment fits into that. There are some school districts where after taxes and the other paycheck deductions, that will represent the bulk of her take home income. So if she- and you- are comfortable with her living at home and taking public transportation, then that’s workable. If she has plans for a cute apartment with a friend after graduation and some semblance of a social life that involves expending cash- not so much.</p>
<p>Or she can move to a place which pays teachers at the high end of the salary scale where the first few years will be spartan but will be more comfortable later on.</p>
<p>Kids sometimes see the extremes of salary surveys “Oh, architects can make up to $300K per yer” and not realize that the entry level architects at a firm in the city THEY want to live in (not SF or Boston) are making $45K per year and that’s after a Master’s degree with loan repayments…</p>
<p>I still think the answer to your question is that Villanova is a fine regional college with many smart and hard-working students, but not “life altering” intellectually or academically to such an extent that it’s worth raiding retirement for. But it’s your money and your daughter, and frankly, the lifestyle post-graduation is going to be yours to manage, not mine. </p>
<p>I don’t believe that 18-year-olds can possibly comprehend the implications of a $1500/month loan payment after college. It’s too abstract. The gain is upfront and will give them something they want now, while the pain is later in a hazy future they can’t visualize. Parents of teens have a duty to prevent their children from making that kind of financial mistake. Student debt blights so many lives. Four years of a 'dream college" is not worth 10-15 years of financial misery and foregone opportunities.</p>
<p>^Exactly, NJSue. I have had this discussion with my son, who would spend like a drunken sailor if he had the money. If he could borrow $20K a year for college “incidentals,” he would, because he is one of those people who believes the future will magically work itself out. My daughter, on the other hand, could have a tall stack of $100 bills in her room and not touch them, ever. She is pushing for an affordable college as much as we are, and if she read this thread she would say it’s “stupid” to incur so much future financial pain for some vague benefit now.</p>
<p>When D1 was in college, she thought having few hundred $$ spending money was a lot. Now she is on her own, she doesn’t think having few thousand excess a month makes her feel very well off. Difference between now and then? Her spending money in college was just for extra, we took care of every unexpected spend. As a self supporting person she realizes she may have unexpected health payments, replacement of appliances, travel…D1 is a lot more financially savvy than she was 7 years ago. To ask an 18 year old about how much loan she would be comfortable in taking out is not reasonable, that’s what we are here for. We should know better how much someone could afford, an 18 year old without real life experience is not capable of making that decision. To say you are willing to co-sign as much as your D wants to take out, you are not being financially responsible for yourself (you would be ultimately responsible for the loans) and for your D. </p>
<p>"I don’t believe that 18-year-olds can possibly comprehend the implications of a $1500/month loan payment after college. It’s too abstract. The gain is upfront and will give them something they want now, while the pain is later in a hazy future they can’t visualize. "</p>
<p>Right. One of the main problems is this: Young folks think that they’ll be earning - say $35k per year - upon graduation. So if you tell them that they’ll be paying $12-15k per year for student loans, the kid thinks, “that’s ok, I can easily live on the other $20k per year”…cuz that’s so much more than they’re earning now.</p>
<p>However, they’ve never paid TAXES, rent, electric bill, water bill, cable, internet, phone, car insurance, car expenses (gas/repairs), food, etc. Some have never paid for much of their clothing or entertainment. </p>
<p>My Math Education niece has no debt for undergrad, but she did do an intensive Masters program at a top private and had to borrow about $40k. That $40k of debt is going to impact where she can get jobs. She’s trying to find a position where she can live at home and commute to her job to pay that debt down. </p>
<p>I keep reading on this thread that “it’s not like she’s going to Harvard”. What I’m wondering is would Harvard make a difference? Harvard still seems like a waste of money to me for a student who likely wants to major in English and/or secondary education. At least if borrowing is in the picture.</p>
<p><a href=“http://quicken.intuit.com/support/help/budgeting-basics/home-budget--cost-of-living-reality-check/INF16169.html;jsessionid=1JFuMhOCPS8KfkN-AeBevg**.p42-6”>http://quicken.intuit.com/support/help/budgeting-basics/home-budget--cost-of-living-reality-check/INF16169.html;jsessionid=1JFuMhOCPS8KfkN-AeBevg**.p42-6</a></p>
<p>here is a nice budget breakdown for a salary of $35,000 from Quicken</p>
<p>Harvard makes a significant difference to me if we’re talking about the family cutting its lifestyle and dipping into savings, but not if we’re talking about the student borrowing $100k plus. That’s madness, including for a computer science major at MIT. It’s the job of the grownups in the picture who understand taxes, utilities, mortgages, etc. to help the child see the error of that choice. Though, in that case, I’m at least sympathetic to the view that the student is missing out on some unique value by saying no to MIT/Harvard, because s/he is.</p>
<p>I’ve put my money where my mouth is here: I have personally told a Harvard admit (whose parents were rich but did not want to pay) that if she could not change their minds, she should take her full ride at Emory. I did this at a Harvard admitted students event where I was an alumni volunteer with the task of selling Harvard. No 18-year-old should take on six-figure student loans for undergrad. Ever.</p>
<p>Hanna, but an 18 year old with rich parents (whether or not they want to pay full tuition, at Harvard or anywhere else) is in a very different position vis-a-vis debt than a kid with middle class parents. I’m not advocating that a kid take on 100K in loans- don’t get me wrong- but the kid from the affluent family may have access to a car (with someone else, i.e. mom and dad paying insurance) once he or she graduates (or even during college.) The kid from the affluent family is likely to be invited on the “family vacation” during Christmas week which can surely take the sting out of living on rice and beans for the other 51 weeks of the year. The kid from the affluent family likely has mom’s credit card- not for daily use- but to buy a dress for a family wedding, for example. Rich folks don’t want their 24 year old daughter- no matter how modest her circumstances right now- showing up looking like a bag lady at a cousin’s fancy “event”.</p>
<p>So there’s a difference. I had a roommate post college who struggled to pay her share of the rent every month (modest job and big loans) but had the largesse of mom and dad to help with the rest!</p>