Isn't the whole college in high school thing getting a bit crazy?

<p>The problem starts with inferior instruction in elementary school. In most public schools, kids are with the same classroom teacher all day, who is responsible for teaching all core subjects, including math. Many of these teachers have a love of humanities and social sciences, but a fear of, or disinterest in, math.</p>

<p>In our middle school a select few (which thankfully has been increasing to about 1/3 of the class in the last few years gets accelerated to algebra in 8th grade. The only kids who get it in 7th have parents who stamp their feet and are also aware that there are kids who have successfully started algebra in 7th. We're lucky with foreign languages - everyone gets them in 6th grade and some schools in the district start in elementary school. I think most kids could be pushed much more than they are - especially in middle school - where my kids learned almost nothing.</p>

<p>Our elementary school teachers actually were quite good at teaching math and the kids often picked it as their favorite subject when polled.</p>

<p>My kids also had exceptional math instruction in their elementary gifted program, as well as 8th grade algebra, advanced high school math, etc., but unfortunately this is not the norm throughout the U.S.</p>

<p>As someone said earlier on this thread, it seems to be the norm throughout C.C. Almost as common as an 800 on the Math II subject test.</p>

<p>Does anyone remember new math? My 15 year was unfortunate to be the first class to learn new math. She was taught the concept of addition/subtraction/multiplication/division, but never really had to practice it. They didn't memorize the multiplication table or traditional way of doing long division. Our D2 would tell us math just wasn't her thing because she was struggling with it.</p>

<p>One day in fourth grade, I saw her trying to do addition by using her fingers and toes (yes, toes). As a Chinese mom with a math degree, I went a bit "crazy." We enrolled her in Kumon. They started with basics (1+1, 1+2, 1+3...2+1, 2+2) then (1x1, 1x2, 1x3), no theory or "concept," just drills. She did it for 6 months for about 15 min/day. We notice she started getting A and A+ in math. I think she was so uptight about not able to do basic math that she couldn't even focus on what her teacher was teaching in class.</p>

<p>Not at all the norm. My kids had some math teachers who were quite mediocre Some were like the teachers described by Liping Ma (link to her book provided above by Tokenadult).
One key difference is that students are taught by specialists beginning in 6th grade in a lot of countries so that 6th graders are not only taught by people who are experts in specific fields, but the teachers can also better discern which students need support and which students should be accelerated.</p>

<p>I guess my D has been lucky with math teachers. Her 6th grade math teacher was phenomenal and really instilled an enduring love of math, and she's had other decent ones along the way. </p>

<p>She has been cursed with terrible science teachers, though. On the night before her big final in physics, I had to explain to her that the "right hand rule" of electromagnetism did not actually require a human hand to wrap around the magnet in order to generate an electric current! That was how the picture in the book showed it, so she figured the hand was an important part of the process! And despite that degree of ignorance, she got an A+ in that exam! Just don't tell the college adcoms this story, OK?</p>

<p>Columbia_Student,
ITA with your statement "You don't need a lot of education for IT department". Yes, you could be a very successful and talented computer programmer at age of 12, if you happen to either naturally posses or develop strong analytical thinking. Most people do not have it naturally. The only subject that I am aware of that develops the thinking process that reguires when writing a computer program or develop an engineering system is math. CS prof that I mentioned in a previous post who said that quality of students went down over period of time, meant exactly this. He said that the kids do not have ability to think certain way to be successful programmers any more. That was at local college where the best students probably do not apply. However, we should not be talking about the best when we discuss the purpose and goals of public education. Everybody who has developed the skill of reading english should also have developed sufficient analytical thinking thru taking math and science at public schools. In addition, the actual knowledge of these subjects is a necessary background for engineering majors.</p>

<p>"Isn't the whole college in high school thing getting a bit crazy?"</p>

<p>Short answer to OP's question: YES!</p>

<p>
[quote]
I guess my D has been lucky with math teachers. Her 6th grade math teacher was phenomenal and really instilled an enduring love of math, and she's had other decent ones along the way.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That's really the point, Vicariousparent. </p>

<p>When S was in 5th grade, he had a phenomenal teacher. But she was phenomenal as an English teacher, not as a math one. She'd done a wonderful job with S1 as an assistant teacher when she was going for her MEd. I was in awe of her creativity then. After she received her Master's, she was in charge of all teaching in 5th grade as homeroom teacher. Math was definitely her weak spot. And that is the norm rather than the exception in american schools. </p>

<p>But apart from teacher qualifications, I still think that the American middle school curriculum is totally undemanding. International comparisons show that through 4th grade, American students more than hold their own. But they have fallen behind by 8th grade. While they are slowed down academically in order to focus on their psychological and social development, in other countries, 6th grade is when learning kicks into high gear.</p>

<p>Our hs district minimized the craziness described in the OP by limiting the number of AP courses students could take-none frosh/soph years and 3 jr/sr years. Students could petition to take some AP's frosh/soph years or more than 3 jr/sr years but none did to my knowledge while our son was in hs.</p>

<p>Colleges knew of these "rules" via the hs profile and it did not impact admissions at all it seemed.</p>

<p>The real upside is that it minimized academic stress, allowed students to engage in out of classroom activities and "passions". However the greatest benefit imho was that it allowed AP teachers to teach those classes at a genuine college level, something not possible if students were taking 4, 5 or 6 AP classes. There would be not enough time in the day given the amount of reading and homework assigned by our AP teachers. It seemed to minimize the competition between students too, though that may have been my perception because of our son and friend's attitudes.</p>

<p>Marite,
ITA with your "But apart from teacher qualifications, I still think that the American middle school curriculum is totally undemanding. International comparisons show that through 4th grade, American students more than hold their own. But they have fallen behind by 8th grade. While they are slowed down academically in order to focus on their psychological and social development, in other countries, 6th grade is when learning kicks into high gear." </p>

<p>Very true in other countries. They start chem, physics, algebra in 5 - 6 grade and they continue teaching them for several years all thru HS. Math is actually all divided into algebra, geomentry and trig and taught simulteniuosly. They are not every day classes, 2 -3 times a week. I am not sure if trig is even taught at every school in US. As an example, you cannot study Electrical Engineering without trig. Then they teach very basic trig in college? Total waste. The point is there are probably few adegaute schools that are at least trying to broadly prepare kids for college, but most do not. There are a lot of resources getting wasted as US public education is one of the most expensive (if not the most expensive) in a world.</p>

<p>Miamidap:</p>

<p>Yes. I attended a French lycee many many years go. We started English and Latin (I was in the classics track) in 6th grade; those in the modern language track added another modern language (usually Spanish, German or Italian) in 8th grade and those in the Latin track had the option of adding Ancient Greek in 8th grade (which I did, since I did not feel exactly overwhelmed by the academics and French students do not have organized ECs or expected to have part time jobs). In addition to these languages, we all started learning math (algebra, geometry, throughout, trigonometry in 11th grade and calculus in 12th). There were different degrees of difficulty for different tracks (then classics, sciences and math; the tracks are now languages and literature; social sciences and economics; and math and sciences). We also learned physics, biology and chemistry throughout 6-12th grades as well as history and literature.
This kind of curriculum is why students with a baccalaureat are eligible for Advanced Standing at most US colleges.</p>

<p>I am not sure S2 would have done well in such a highly structured curriculum because he had covered all the high school math curriculum before getting there. But for his brother, it would have worked perfectly.</p>

<p>could i just point out that in other countries, students are set on different tracks, and the ones that are used in the test score comparisons are simply the academic tracks, not the vocational ones, as the vocational ones don't have to take the same tests? also, by separating the children out at a younger age, of course they are able to learn more. a lot of statistical differences come from the different ways of reaching the statistics though.</p>

<p>^^ Very true. But our high school also has a vocational track, just as there was in my lycee. It just starts in 9th grade rather than 6th. We were not divided into CP and Honors classes, by the way. So if we compare the honors track at my kids' hs and my own education, my lycee curriculum was more rigorous and covered more subjects throughout high school. And it applied to all students not in the vocational track.</p>

<p>
[quote]
could i just point out that in other countries, students are set on different tracks, and the ones that are used in the test score comparisons are simply the academic tracks, not the vocational ones, as the vocational ones don't have to take the same tests?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That is entirely untrue as to eighth graders in the countries that have the biggest lead on the United States at that age. All the eighth graders are taking the same general curriculum, and that general curriculum is far above the United States level for everybody, including for the below-average pupils who will eventually have a different high school curriculum. You can read the TIMSS reports to find out more.</p>

<p>
[quote]
There are a lot of resources getting wasted as US public education is one of the most expensive (if not the most expensive) in a world.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That's another important point. The issue is not just results, but return on investment. The money spent intentionally slowing down many United States pupils to keep them at the pace of the slowest learners could be spent on many more worthy tasks that are good for society.</p>

<p>I read an article about the recent TIMSS tests and it said that two states, Massachusetts and Minnesota finished near the top of the pack against the top Asian city-states. So there are a few places doing better for large population groups.</p>

<p>Minnesota (where I live) was still substantially behind Taiwan and a few other countries, all of which educate all middle-school age pupils to a high standard. </p>

<p><a href="http://timss.bc.edu/TIMSS2007/PDF/TIMSS2007_InternationalMathematicsReport.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://timss.bc.edu/TIMSS2007/PDF/TIMSS2007_InternationalMathematicsReport.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>BCeagle:</p>

<p>Yes, and MA has one of the more demanding curricula and high stake tests. But I still think that our otherwise excellent k-8 school fell short in the 6-8 grades in certain respects because the state frameworks were less demanding than that of French schools that I and my various nieces and nephews have attended and some of the teachers (mostly otherwise excellent) were not specialists in the disciplines they were asked to teach.
At the other end, there are so many high schoolers taking Harvard Extension classes that the superintendent negotiated with Harvard college to let high school students take regular, day-time college classes for high school credit. This expanded the range of classes available to the students enormously.</p>