Isn't the whole college in high school thing getting a bit crazy?

Parents Forum
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<p>
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Columbia_Student,
ITA with your statement "You don't need a lot of education for IT department". Yes, you could be a very successful and talented computer programmer at age of 12, if you happen to either naturally posses or develop strong analytical thinking. Most people do not have it naturally.

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<p>I used to sit next to the manager of the IT department and she called our local community colleges looking for IT people. So that is why I made that statement. Some IT jobs paying almost near minimum wage, I think $12.</p>

<p>According to TIMMS, UK and US rank way below these Asian Countries, but guess who invented the WWW and internet(besides Al Gore of course)</p>

<p>Hoover</a> Institution - Education Next - Why Students in Some Countries Do Better</p>

<p>UK/Swiss
Tim</a> Berners-Lee - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia</p>

<p>USA/Arpanet - defense project
Internet</a> Society (ISOC) All About The Internet: History of the Internet</p>

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<p>Not all countries have different tracks. Actually some of them require exactly the same classes for everybody. No choice of schedule whatsoever, kid is with the same 30+ kids in all classes. Good or bad, I do not know. Result is definately very good college prep with superior analytical skills for everybody, although many do not go to college at all.</p>

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<p>Columbia_Student,
My manager has hardest time looking for qualified IT people. The salary starts in mid $63,000 in one of the most economically depressed area of the country. It depends on department/positions. As I mentioned, in 9 companies that I have worked, IT depatment population is getting very old, close to retirement.</p>

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<p>I still get the best IT talent in NYC, not India, China or even London. Americans have a real can do attitude. My NY team will always find a way to get a job done. There were a few instances when our London team couldn't get something done, they had to send people from NY to fix it. But many IT developers in NY make 200+.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Columbia_Student,
My manager has hardest time looking for qualified IT people. The salary starts in mid $63,000 in one of the most economically depressed area of the country. It depends on department/positions. As I mentioned, in 9 companies that I have worked, IT depatment population is getting very old, close to retirement.

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<p>Back in the dot com bubble, it was paid nearly $100K for someone with no experience and also from 2-year CC.
I only heard recently that for some functions of IT, people only get paid as low as $12/hour. I know from my work experience, sometimes you just need an IT person to come and take the hardware away. Maybe those are the ones that are getting $12.</p>

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Americans have a real can do attitude.

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I agree with the statement.</p>

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<p>"But many IT developers in NY make 200+."</p>

<p>Shouldn't this then be IS developers? IT covers a lot of ground from those that put together PCs, install software, do user support, develop applications, software engineers, etc. When you use the term IT developer, the connotation to me is someone that develops applications which is quite a different skillset compared to someone trained in something like VMWare.</p>

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<p>These developers do sales & trading applications, slightest hiccup could cause the firm millions.</p>

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<p>"These developers do sales & trading applications, slightest hiccup could cause the firm millions."</p>

<p>They should have processes and procedures in place so that they don't get hiccups. At any rate, these people sound more like programmers and developers and using more specific terms to describe what they do makes for a more clear argument.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
"These developers do sales & trading applications, slightest hiccup could cause the firm millions."

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<p>It seems to me that these software should be tested throughly. I could only see slightest hiccup as network problem but not software problem. If it's software problem then it's not a hiccup. It's a bug or feature whichever term you prefer.</p>

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<p>
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My point is simple- just because other countries are forcing their young students to do higher and higher level math at earlier and earlier ages, we should not raise expectations across the board.

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<p>"Force" connotes that students in other countries sacrifice other things to keep up with their rigorous programs. Having grown up in one of those other countries and gone through their (public) elementary and middle school curricula, I can say that having a more advanced curriculum isn't stressful or harsh like I suspect many people imagine. </p>

<p>My experience was that educators simply emphasized understanding concepts, exposed students to interesting problems, and made sure everyone understood what was going on. Everyone was expected to perform at a reasonable level. We also had very good programs in music, art, and the humanities. And the classes were also fairly large, some with nearly 50 students. Looking back, I felt the schools did a good job of fostering creativity, analytical thinking, and an appreciation for intellectual pursuits. </p>

<p>My point was that the US could have similarly good schools. US students as a whole, I think, are not any less talented than students from other countries. Foreign schools are able to challenge their students more in high school because their students are given solid educations from an early age, and these benefits accumulate over time. </p>

<p>
[quote]
I don't think we should join an 'arms race' with other countries about how advanced our kids are in math (or science or any other subject). The genius of America lies in being a country of free thinkers who are creative, innovative, and well-rounded. It does not lie in being a country that leads its young down a straight and narrow path of academic achievement.

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<p>I would definitely agree with you about the importance of creativity, innovation, and well-roundedness. I would also argue that academic achievement and innovation are not mutually exclusive, but instead go hand in hand. It's difficult to inspire future scientists and engineers, for example, in schools that don't challenge students in math or science. Also, a lot of achievements in science and engineering are not a result of one brilliant person, but the combined efforts of many smart, motivated people working together. I wouldn't call it an arms race, but I think there are tremendous benefits to popularizing intellectual pursuits, not only in math and science but also in literature, music, humanities, and fine arts.</p>

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<p>
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Foreign schools are able to challenge their students more in high school because their students are given solid educations from an early age, and these benefits accumulate over time.

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<p>That's the crucial difference. United States students are let down by what happens in their early years of schooling. </p>

<p>
[quote]
I would also argue that academic achievement and innovation are not mutually exclusive, but instead go hand in hand. It's difficult to inspire future scientists and engineers, for example, in schools that don't challenge students in math or science. Also, a lot of achievements in science and engineering are not a result of one brilliant person, but the combined efforts of many smart, motivated people working together.

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<p>Hear. Hear. Again, it is easier to be creative with a store of correct knowledge of reality before tackling some tough new problem.</p>

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<p>Another piece of the puzzle is parental attitude. Parents will pay for extracurricular activities (academic or otherwise) and support discipline in the schools.</p>

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<p>New York Times column by Thomas Friedman (who grew up near where I grew up, by the way): </p>

<p><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/24/opinion/24friedman.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/24/opinion/24friedman.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>^^^ Thanks for the link. Here is a crucial paragraph from it:</p>

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<p>Should we 'reboot' the educational system and expect more from our teachers and schools? Yes, absolutely. But we should do it the right way. The schools we end up with should be improved versions of American schools- not clones of Chinese, or Indian or Korean schools.</p>

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<p>I quoted that same paragraph in a Brand X online forum, with the implication that Americans have to learn from what is genuinely better about other countries rather than to assume that they have nothing to learn from them.</p>

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<p>Add parents and students too.</p>

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<p>Interestingly enough, the asians copied the good parts of the US system a few decades ago. Back in the 1960s and 1970s, the asians emphasized rote learning. My wife is a product of this approach and it is hard for her to learn independently because of this approach. The asians took criticisms of their rote approach and looked to the US to work on problem-solving, critical thinking and creativity. We have lots of good ideas over here but they're not always implemented well.</p>

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<p>I don't think we are in great disagreement about what needs to be done. We need to learn from them, but we need to recognize our own strengths and not throw the baby out with the bath water.</p>

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<p>It would probably be helpful if those whose taught mathematics in this country actually understood it - especially in the primary grades.</p>

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<p>^^ Yes, absolutely! You are singing Tokenadult's song and mine!</p>

<p>American schools, at least the better ones, are great at cultivating critical thinking and creativity. But when it comes to math teaching, it's all about rote-learning of procedures because the teachers don't really understand the math. I recall so well the look of panic on my S's 5th grade teacher's face because he suggested there was a different way at arriving at the (correct) solution. She only knew one--the one in the book. Sh'e memorized it and had learned how to explain it, but did not truly understand the math behind it. BUT she was a great humanities teacher.</p>

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<p>One problem is indeed the quality of primary/secondary education itself, as recent posts have been discussing.</p>

<p>But the main point here, I think, is the impact of colleges granting credit for HS work.</p>

<p>I agree with others earlier on in this thread who have said that AP tests should be used more for placement than for credit. Except in extremely rare circumstances, people should not have second-semester junior standing at their college at the start of their second year merely because of courses taken in HS.</p>

<p>In my case, my high school did not offer any AP-designated courses on principle, but it taught me how to think analytically and how to write. Despite not having AP scores to show for it, it's been pretty clear to me from my college courses that my high school better prepared me for college than most that had "advanced" placement.</p>