<p>My take on this is:</p>
<p>I am on track to MV Calc and Differential Equations for my Soph. year. My plan is to take that and take theoretical/philosophy classes next semester. A lot of my classes are either advanced hs classes or classes at a community college nearby, neither of which have the facilities to handle work of such caliber.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, I think most high school have a curriculum that is just not challenging enough. I have taken and am taking the hardest course load available... and I NEVER have homework. The highest math we offer is Calc AB, and it's such a slow class, I think I could have taken it in 9th grade. Personally, I think the problem lies with the school. When Calc AB is the hardest math we have, and only the "smart kids" are in it, others don't feel the need to take that course; they take lower level courses, even though many of them are capable of the workload. I think certain classes should be required for certain grade levels (with the exception of students with learning disabilities, etc.), and I think Calc AB should be a REQUIREMENT for all seniors, not just the smart ones. IMHO, students are becoming too lazy, and school administrators are adjusting to it.</p>
<p>Not so oddly enough, this is rarely a question that a person interested in the humanities would pose. In fact, if you read the statistics of most of the students who post on CC, and see where/what field they are interested in pursuing, I think you would conclude that a very large majority are Math/Science oriented. Nothing wrong with that, it's just a much smaller percentage of the entire high school demographic than one would encounter outside of CC. For those students who are driven in this direction, AP, IB, com. col. courses are perfectly fine, and hopefully available. But that is a very small percentage of actual high school students. The reason young people interested in what are traditionally thought of as the Humanities do not need to pursue their education in this way, is that what they are investigating is not quantifiable, and thus not something that can be measured as accurately by standardized tests. You will find many m/s students who can score very well on the reading/verbal/writing portions of the SAT but not nearly as many, say, English/philosophy/history students who can score equally well on the math portion of the same test. This says very little about the overall intelligence of the people involved, except that one group can, or chooses to, memorize formal data much more than the other. In a free-ranging discussion or analysis of a non-quantifiable subject, however, which students are best suited to carry the day is still debatable. I know mathematicians who are so far beyond me in "their" thinking that I am often astounded; on the other hand, when I attempt to have them grapple with rather rudimentary philosophical concepts, they often seem as little children. It's not that they can't grasp what I'm talking about, it's that they can't even acknowledge the possibility of it's existence. I find this all very interesting insofar as "intelligent" people are concerned.</p>
<p>Right, intelligence flies in many directions. But why do you suppose the science/math accelerates at an earlier age?</p>
<p>For most kids, it is not getting crazy. The majority of kids in the average school are looking at state and local schools. For many of them, the state flagship is their biggest reach school. Where it gets crazy is with the most selective schools. More kids than ever are applying to those schools, making it even more competitive and selective.</p>
<p>I was a humanities kid who ran out of classes to take at my high school, back in the dark ages of the early nineties. By the end of my junior year I had taken every possible social science and English elective our school offered. I was bored silly. My GC suggested dual enrollment at a local state U and I thrived. I took no classes at my high school my senior year. The experience also helped me clarify exactly what I wanted in a college.</p>
<p>I suggested that my son take a college classes for two reasons: 1) to see how the college classes were structured differently from HS classes (i.e. no daily homework, big lectures, etc.), and 2) he took a summer class and lived for 6 weeks at the school at the top of his list to see how he liked living there. (He also knocked off his UC VPA requirement at the local CC so he could do it in one semester vs. one year.) He is a humanities kid through and through. Although my only goal at the time was to keep him interested in learning (which high school was NOT doing), I do believe that having been successful at the college level helped him with admissions. It motivated him to become involved in the college application process as well (improved HS grades, willingness to strive for the schools he wanted to attend, etc.).</p>
<p>I'm arriving a little late to this thread, so my comments will be a bit scattered.</p>
<p>To respond to the OP's question first: No, I don't think so. Students who are interested in math/science (and who have been given free rein to follow their own interests early on) are often ready for university courses by high school. I can think of several reasons for the differences in frequency of acceleration in math/science vs. the humanities:</p>
<p>a) Understanding literature or history requires a sophisticated understanding of human motivation and an extensive background of reference points. It takes students time to mature emotionally and to acquire a good framework into which new information can be incorporated. Mathematics, as it is usually taught in the schools, does not require this.</p>
<p>b) In literature, the texts in high school courses may be read <em>voluntarily</em> by adults. Good literature contains depths that can be plumbed, often to the limit of the student's understanding. In contrast, there is only so much that can be said about solving quadratic equations, in high school--solutions of polynomial equations do become very interesting again in the context of group theory, but almost no one can leap from high school algebra to Galois theory without some help and background--which is acquired from university courses.</p>
<p>In terms of marite's comment about a friend who will not accept graduate students from the PRC, I would like to say first that graduate work in science/math does require original thinking (!!!), just as in the social sciences. Very broadly speaking, grad students from the PRC come into my particular university department better prepared than our domestic students, in terms of science/math background. (As with all generalities, this one has some striking exceptions.) Countervailing to that, the American students--generality again!--do seem to be somewhat more willing to try the approach I'd call "flying by the seat of the pants, let's see if we can invent some way to solve this problem."</p>
<p>But I will happily accept both into my research group! Both benefit from their interactions, and I think that both can learn/be taught/acquire somehow an approach to problem selection and problem solving that is both creative and firmly knowledge-based. </p>
<p>@vicariousparent: Since apparently "viciousparent" isn't taken, I thought briefly about using that name as an alias, in case I wanted to post some harsh comments in the future. However, I've thought better of it! So if anyone does begin to post under that username, it's truly someone else!</p>
<p>Because math and science tend to be more sequential than the humanities/social studies, advanced students can easily run out of classes in high school and thus need to take college-level classes. It is easier for students who are good in the humanities and social studies to do more with whatever assignments they are given. Case in point. My two Ss had the same teacher in 3rd grade. S1 wanted to use more than the materials the students had studied in order to write his paper on the social studies unit; the teacher happily gave him her own teacher's materials to read. S2 found the math curriculum way too easy. Despite the fact that it would have been no problem for him to join 4th graders, the teacher refused to let him:"I don't like tracking," she said, forgetting that she had provided enrichment to S1 in the shape of extra materials.
In high school, S2 took part in National History Day and was part of a creative writing group. There was no need for him to take college classes.</p>
<p>Quantmech:</p>
<p>My S is a bit a "seat of the pants" guy and I can see that many profs would like their students to have a good grasp of the basics. But in the humanities and social sciences, there is not as much emphasis on the basics. At the same time, students who are trained to be overly respectful of authority (and this does not apply solely to PRC students by any means) may be unwilling to be critical of what they read and to express their own opinions, even orally, let alone in writing. For good or ill, in the US, Ph.D. work entails "making a contribution to the field" which many students interpret as writing a dissertation that is a magnum opus that shows creativity, theoretical insights, original research, good writing, etc... As I'm sure you know, a lot of academic books are revised Ph.D. dissertations. In fact, in many cases, these are the only publications some profs have.</p>
<p>marite: theses in science need everything you've mentioned except for good writing. :)
Creative thinking is learnable, in my opinion, at least within the scientific realm.
I like the people who will try the "flying by the seat of the pants" approach--in uncharted territory, it's the only way there is to go.</p>
<p>To me, there are two issues:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Kids being able to learn higher level material earlier, and go at as swift a pace as their hungry minds can absorb.</p></li>
<li><p>Kids who are competing at the top of their class with other top kids in an ever-spiraling arms race of GPA and #of AP classes, for top rank or other "trophies". Especially when the impetus is not coming from the student, but from the parents.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Number 1 is healthy and desirable, and Number 2 is often stressful and undesirable. I don't mean that a little competition is a bad thing, but there are lots of negatives that flow from the #2 situation if it gets out of hand. Sometimes when we debate, some people are talking about #1, and some people are thinking of #2.</p>
<p>Just my two cents.</p>
<p>One earlier post mentioned that their school limited freshmen & sophomores to 0 APs and juniors & seniors to 3.</p>
<p>I hate to see arbitrary limits placed on students. Instead, set up a standard course sequence and define pre-reqs for the advanced courses and let the kids who can get the pre-reqs take the courses earlier.</p>
<p>My daughter is a freshman this year taking 3 APs (French, Calc BC & Chem). Really, the work load hasn't been that bad -- she probably averages around 1 hour of homework a night. I think she'd be incredibly frustrated in any lower course in those topics.</p>
<p>Well, to each his own. Most people in foreign countries do 5 years of high school... in Europe, at least. So it's natural they have calculus I / II, some basic science, etc.</p>
<p>I think it's nice that colleges allow AP courses to count for some courses. I don't think they need to, but why not? Motivated students can enter college with zero AP courses and <em>still</em> be better off than most of their peers.</p>
<p>Due to circumstances beyond my control, I entered college with a ~3.5 GPA, no extracurriculars, and no AP classes. I am now at (or very close to near) the top of my class and have, in general, been successful in every venture. Conversely, I know people who had a full year of AP credit who make B's and C's and don't do anything extracurricular now.</p>
<p>If you want to take advanced courses in HS, more power to you. Otherwise, there's time later for that sort of thing. Double major or get a Master's degree, etc. Everybody's different.</p>
<p>Still, I would question the motives of anyone taking multivariable calculus and linear algebra before the senior year of high school... sounds to me like peer / parent / societal pressure.</p>
<p><em>First, let me admit that I barely skimmed this thread; I apologize if my comment is redundant. But mathinokc's post caught my eye:</em></p>
<p>``````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````</p>
<p>mathinokc: One earlier post mentioned that their school limited freshmen & sophomores to 0 APs and juniors & seniors to 3.</p>
<p>I hate to see arbitrary limits placed on students. Instead, set up a standard course sequence and define pre-reqs for the advanced courses and let the kids who can get the pre-reqs take the courses earlier.</p>
<p>My daughter is a freshman this year taking 3 APs (French, Calc BC & Chem). Really, the work load hasn't been that bad -- she probably averages around 1 hour of homework a night. I think she'd be incredibly frustrated in any lower course in those topics.</p>
<p>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~</p>
<p>*I read this post and am baffled because it is so foreign to my experience. My d is a senior and has been limited to three honors/AP classes a year. (APs: one soph, two junior, two senior). She is taking her fourth year of French and will not take Calculus BC while in hs. She attends a rigorous private school and averages 3-5 hours of homework 7 days a week. She is a solid A/B student. I don't know whether it is the course load as a freshman or the one hour of homework that threw me. Lest it be wondered if perhaps the homework load of 3-5 hours a night and the A/B gpa indicates a student who struggles, d is a NMF, AP Scholar, etc. with a 2370 SAT. I know of no student at the school who could get by with around 1 hour of homework, much less the ones with any APs. </p>
<p>No offense meant to mathinokc by using your post as an example. It just reinforced how different high schools can be - and I truly wonder how college admissions sort it all out. </p>
<p>FWIW D would love to be able to say that homework takes about one hour per night. :)</p>
<p>
[quote]
To me, there are two issues:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Kids being able to learn higher level material earlier, and go at as swift a pace as their hungry minds can absorb.</p></li>
<li><p>Kids who are competing at the top of their class with other top kids in an ever-spiraling arms race of GPA and #of AP classes, for top rank or other "trophies". Especially when the impetus is not coming from the student, but from the parents.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Number 1 is healthy and desirable, and Number 2 is often stressful and undesirable. I don't mean that a little competition is a bad thing, but there are lots of negatives that flow from the #2 situation if it gets out of hand. Sometimes when we debate, some people are talking about #1, and some people are thinking of #2.</p>
<p>Just my two cents.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That's the perfect way to describe it. </p>
<p>I view them as the Honors and AP paths. The Honors kid will score 90-95 in all their honors (and even little AP) classes. Top 10% and will get into a great college. The latter, the AP kids, will score 95+ in each of their classes, mentally and physically drain themselves while fighting for tenths of a point in the top 10 in hope of scoring an Ivy. </p>
<p>It's a huge let down for the AP kids, too. A friend of mine, an AP student, - ranked number four. She applied to Yale. Rejected. All of her hard work thrown away in one little letter. Another friend of mine, an honors student, was accepted into Boston College. It's no Yale; but it's still a gorgeous and reputable school. </p>
<p>If you have legacy, money, political status and high 2300s - you have a shot at Yale. Otherwise - stop killing yourself over the AP scores and aim for NYU, Northwestern and the like.</p>
<p>-x-</p>
<p>Oh, and college courses are a bunch of BS. Most of them are in accordance with the local community college. You'll get nothing out of it. You are taking the same class as the people in community class. You know, the drop outs, deadbeats and low lives.</p>
<p>Monoclide,
I wouldn't want any child to drain themselves to earn A's, whether in APs or Honors. I'd want them to sleep enough and find some enjoyment every day. Yale is a reach for anyone, and a rejection from there doesn't mean all the hard work is wasted. Your friend was probably a good candidate for many other terrific schools.</p>
<p>For some kids, AP classes come easily. We don't live near a prestigious college, but our local colleges have terrific profs (academic jobs are so hard to find). My S took all his math classes there, Latin, macroeconomics, and I forget what else. The atmosphere is more mature than HS. Can't say I ever heard a complaint about dead beats</p>
<p>
[quote]
All of her hard work thrown away in one little letter.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Why? Did she not learn anything in her AP classes? Why consider that work "thrown away?" If she does not attend Yale but attends another excellent school, will that learning be for nothing?This is the sort of attitude that I really cannot understand.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The latter, the AP kids, will score 95+ in each of their classes, mentally and physically drain themselves while fighting for tenths of a point in the top 10 in hope of scoring an Ivy.
[/quote]
How do you know that the AP kids "mentally and physically drain themselves?" Speaking as the parent of a kid who did two APs (the two considered the hardest) in 8th grade and had time and energy to spare.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Oh, and college courses are a bunch of BS. Most of them are in accordance with the local community college. You'll get nothing out of it. You are taking the same class as the people in community class. You know, the drop outs, deadbeats and low lives.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>ROTFL! How could I miss that one? Please do tell the folks at the Harvard Extension School (you know, Harvard profs?) that the courses they offer are a bunch of BS and the students they teach are "drop outs, deadbeats and low lives." On behalf of my S (now happily in college), thank you for that characterization.<br>
Seriously, though, I know some community colleges and students who attend them. Some may have issues but many are extremely hard-working. They do not fit your insulting description at all.</p>
<p>. "Oh, and college courses are a bunch of BS. Most of them are in accordance with the local community college. You'll get nothing out of it. You are taking the same class as the people in community class. You know, the drop outs, deadbeats and low lives."</p>
<p>Lovely.</p>
<p>You could also look at as taking the same class as people who are striving to make their lives better. Taking the same class with a professor who actually liked teaching. Taking a class your high school doesn't offer. Taking a class with your friend who carpools with you.</p>
<p>I actually took classes at a local 4-year university. It wrecked my GPA because the classes didn't get weighted, but I was happy and I thrived. It changed how I viewed what I wanted in my college experience, and I then went on to be blissfully happy in a top fifty LAC.</p>