<p>The schools we end up with should be improved versions of American schools- not clones of Chinese, or Indian or Korean schools.</p>
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<p>While I generally agree with this, it's interesting to note that students from these countries continue to fill graduate science and engineering departments at the most elite American universities, as they have for decades. The work they do is creative and ground-breaking, and they are able to thrive here despite being products of "rote-learning" educational systems.</p>
<p>We frequently have kids in college that skipped intro courses because of AP courses that weren't prepared for the higher level courses. Other posters then explain how AP courses don't necessarily math college-level courses and that it's sometimes wiser to start at a lower point than the AP courses would indicate.</p>
<p>BCE, my S took AP Calc and AP Physics in HS and got As, but chose not to take the AP exams in those subjects, because he didn't want to avoid the intro levels in college. He is a freshman and is very happy with his decision.</p>
<p>If you watch the MIT OCW Physics videos done by Walter Lewin, you can see the number of students that attend the lectures dwindle as the semester wears on. In one video, he accuses some students of cheating on a quiz. If the best math and science kids can have trouble in an intro course, than so can most others.</p>
<p>Our son too Physics I and II first year and somewhere between 65% and 70% of students flunked out or withdrew. There were several hundred students in the class and I think that a lot of hopes of becoming engineers were dashed.</p>
<p>BC: does one know what kind of AP scores were required for that course? Were students allowed in with only Physics B or AB-Math?</p>
<p>On the issue of creativity, I recently heard a prof saying that the prof's department (in the social sciences) was no longer willing to accept PRC students for graduate work after having had some bad experiences. More specifically, the students were "well prepared." they did well in courses. But it became clear that they were not able to think creatively on their own, which was the crucial factor in researching and writing a Ph.D. dissertation. This may have to do with their training in not challenging teachers or received wisdom (political or otherwise) and would have no effect on work in the sciences and engineering. Just a hunch of mine.</p>
<p>"BC: does one know what kind of AP scores were required for that course? Were students allowed in with only Physics B or AB-Math?"</p>
<p>I do not know the situation with AP scores of the students or classes. But I'd assume high-school physics and precalculus to get into the engineering program. Our son never took any AP courses other than AP Biology - he didn't take the test because he became very sick in the middle of the course. That AP course was one where they expected from three to five hours of reading per day.</p>
<p>"was no longer willing to accept PRC students for graduate work after having had some bad experiences"</p>
<p>A former professor at Worcestor school told me of their experiences with PRC grad TAs and the TOEFL exam. The idea was to get a great score on the exam. Being able to actually communicate in english was nice if it happened.</p>
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<p>This may have to do with their training in not challenging teachers or received wisdom (political or otherwise) and would have no effect on work in the sciences and engineering.>>></p>
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<p>The ability to challenge received wisdom, throw out old dogmas and think laterally and fearlessly is the key to scientific creativity. Original scientific research demands it. </p>
<p>While I think our schools could do better in math, where they fail most miserably and across the board is in science. My concern is not so much for our competitiveness in science or tech (we can always import or outsource as needed), but in the abysmal lack of understanding of science by the "average joe". While it is a fair argument that the guy on the street does not need calculus, it is essential that he/she have a scientific temperament and understand the basics of science.</p>
<p>I don't want to get this thread moved to the 'politics' subforum, but I have to say that one of the biggest problems we have is that the religious right has been very hostile towards education and science education in particular. It is willing to demand high standards in math and language, but does not want anything to do with science. In fact, if you place more demands on schools in the department of math and language but don't provide more resources, you effectively take away resources from science (and art and music).</p>
<p>I do not doubt the importance of creativity in math/sciences (having a math-whizz myself). But the kind of creativity that is required is not squelched by the cultural tradition and political system many Asian students grow up in. In the humanities and social sciences, however, this is a huge issue.</p>
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I do not know the situation with AP scores of the students or classes. But I'd assume high-school physics and precalculus to get into the engineering program. Our son never took any AP courses other than AP Biology - he didn't take the test because he became very sick in the middle of the course. That AP course was one where they expected from three to five hours of reading per day.
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<p>I'd be very surprised if MIT let students into the engineering programs with only precalculus and honors physics. But there is a difference between AB Calc and Physics B vs. Physics C. Not just in terms of contents, but in terms of the students who populate those classes. </p>
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"was no longer willing to accept PRC students for graduate work after having had some bad experiences"</p>
<p>A former professor at Worcestor school told me of their experiences with PRC grad TAs and the TOEFL exam. The idea was to get a great score on the exam. Being able to actually communicate in english was nice if it happened.
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<p>The prof who told me about this did not mention English proficiency. The prof was quite specific about the lack of individual creative and critical thinking as the key obstacle.</p>
<p>I found out earlier today that MCC in Mass has a program for dual-enrollment for high-school and home-schooled students and the website indicated state funding. The school is closed so I can't get more details but this may be related to the project to get high-school students into college sooner.</p>
<p>MA is facing huge spending cuts and colleges are a discretionary part of the budget so this program may get cut just after it started. It's on my list of things to check out when they reopen next year.</p>
<p>When I went to high school (albeit over 30 years ago), we took high school courses. My high school offered one AP course (World History), which I took and got credit for in college. I don't think there was such a thing as dual enrollment. I didn't even have algebra until 9th grade (our math sequence was Algebra 1, Geometry, Algebra 2/Trig, Calculus). My D had Algebra 2 as a freshman, and I know there are kids at her school who are a year or two ahead of her - they attended math courses at the high school when they were in middle school. Math and science-wise, my daughter is getting a much better education than I did. In terms of language arts, grammar and writing, my old-fashioned education was far superior.</p>
<p>I will second that. Even though my kids did/are doing the AP Lit and Language Arts (and earlier the so-called gifted sequence), my cumulative LA education was far superior. My math was as mdoc described. Even my non-AP history education was superior to their AP History. We are talking over 40 years ago here.</p>
<p>What I think is a major problem is the LACK of courses offered in high school. I do alot of science stuff on my own (because I do independent research) and the stuff I was doing in seventh grade, we haven't even learned in my Physics B AP course (that is the highest level offered at my school).
I go to a public school so I (and many other high school students in america) don't have the option to take multivariable calculus or linear alegebra, but that does not mean that we can not do it, we simply just dont have the opportunity.</p>
<p>Most schools do not offer MV Calc. Those that do are a tiny minority. This is rightly considered a college course. But many high schoolers are capable of doing well in MV calc and, if so, they should have the possibility of taking the course whether for high school credit or dual credit.</p>
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throw out old dogmas and think laterally and fearlessly is the key to scientific creativity. Original scientific research demands it. [\quote]</p>
<p>I really disagree with this statement, I am devoutly Christian (so obviously I love old dogmas :)) but I also have done extensive advanced science research. The key to scienctific dogmas (as well as religious) is not to abandon old theories but to understand how new discoveries dynamically change our perception.
Like take for instance Darwin's initial Origin of Species, some of the things he assert were wrong (as was later discovered) but it was significant in that it was a stepping stone to the contempary theory of evolutionary biology. The abadonment of old theories is not science, but rather the theories themselves evolve as our understanding of the world increases.</p>
<p>And in all honesty I definitely do not appreciate you (vicious parent) attacking the religious right, I am a deep Christian and myself (as well as ALOT) of the kids who are doing advanced level scientific research are christian. When I was at science fair I got fourth (with a project that studied the probability for photons to undergo quantum tunneling) and the girl who won (who did a project that studied photoluminense-the projection of sounds waves into liquids to produce light) was a fierce christian and we even had a conversation about how evolution was wrong. </p>
<p>In fact it is more the humanities type kids who are the ones that are anti-religious as opposed to the science inclined students, so do not try to use science as if it is adverse to christianity.</p>
<p>So don't sit there and insult the so called "Christian right" as if we are antagonistic toward science, because many Christians contribute to the body of science fiercely, and the concept that religious ppl are adverse to science is down right ignorant.</p>
<p>Dbate: Let me clarify, I am a "vicarious" and not intentionally "vicious" parent. I am sorry for offending your Christian sensibilitites. I have deep respect for Christ and the wonderful things Christianity has done for civilization over the centuries. And this may be a small point, but I did not say "Christian right", I said "religious right". I don't consider some of the extremists on the religious right to be Christians. Anyway, I wish you the best during this season and I don't wish to continue with this Dbate.</p>
<p>My D's high school does offer multivariable calculus; however, it is available only to those kids who were put on the super-advanced math track in middle school and whose parents were able to drive them to the high school during the school day to take high school level math classes in 7th and 8th grade. That pretty much rules out this curriculum for late bloomers and kids whose parents worked during those driving times and weren't otherwise able to find transportation for their children. D's high school also offers a variety of AP courses and honors courses, but they're not available to everyone. These kids are "tracked" as early as 3rd grade and if they don't get into the accelerated track, they're not always able to take advantage of all the high school has to offer. I don't particularly like this system, because not all children develop at the same time (and not all parents realize what's happening in elementary school). It doesn't really affect my D - she won't be taking multivariable calculus, but since she's not planning a future in applied mathematics, I don't consider it a big deal. But if a college is looking for the most rigorous curriculum offered at the high school, many kids will not have taken it - not by choice but because it simply wasn't available to them.</p>
<p>I was in the slowest math track in elementary and the beginning of junior high. I went to various book stores and libraries and bought my own books and taught myself in the afternoon and finished junior high at the fastest track. This was without any parental guidance.</p>
<p>Today, there are free online textbooks, exams, quizzes and video lectures for those that know about these resources and have the initiative to take advantage of them. There are wonderful online resources that will give you a tough multivariable class too but those will set someone back up to $2,500.</p>