<p>I give up. You are an old broken record--- an old 78 rpm that no one listens to anymore because it is antiquated and full of scratches (and constantly repeating the same spot on which it is stuck). I fear that every time I post a response to your constant redundancy it brings your silly threads up to the top, and unless you show any willingness to LISTEN instead of DRONE ON AND ON I am done feeding into your pathos.</p>
<p>One last observation. If you want to put things into perspective, one thread I started several months ago got over 5000 views. I am so thankful I had the opportunity to provide such informative, educative information to so many needy viewers. Oh, by the way, it was about hosting the post-prom party <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=328314%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=328314</a> . So I guess we can all take pride in the wonderful educational benefits our threads provide to the masses out there in need of our services.</p>
<p>OBW I find it funny that you assume that the few people who take the time to respond to your BS in an attempt to negate the taint you are putting on this forums are the only ones who disagree with you. Get over yourself. We're talking about education here and you didn't even finish your degree.</p>
<p>I don't go back and look at old threads to evaluate arguments--that WOULD be obsessive. I evaluate arguments on the merits. So, my point is that "Ivy-obsession," if it exists, is only a special case of a more general obsession with achievement and excelling that I have seen from many parents, to the detriment of their children's ability to have a normal childhood. Of course, in each individual case of this, the parent can explain how it's essential because this particular child is highly talented and must be challenged to meet his full potential (even if it means practicing the piano for six hours every day).</p>
<p>jym: I read your post that got 5000 readers and I congratulate and commend you on it. It's a great post, and your topic is certainly one that deserves much discussion and attention. I'm pleased to see that it got the attention it deserves. Indeed, much good info for both students and parents.</p>
<p>Thanks.</p>
<p>jnpn: First of all, why so angry and defensive?</p>
<p>Second: In regard to your statement about my not ever completing my degree...hopefully this explanation will give you a clearer understanding of college degree progression:</p>
<p>You're probably referring to the fact that my education level is ABD. ABD means that someone has completed all degree requirements for a Ph.D., with the exception of the doctoral dissertation. In order to get to the ABD level, one has to hold at least a Bachelor's degree first. After the Bachelor's degree comes the Master's degree (a graduate degree); after the Master's comes the Doctorate (in Counselor Education it is either the Ph.D or Ed.D.).
So, to clarify things, I hold a Bachelor's and Master's degree. On top of that, I completed all requirements for a doctorate except for the doctoral dissertation. I decided to not spend time on the dissertation, as it detracted from the time I could spend raising my children. </p>
<p>Hope this helps.</p>
<p>Thank you, obw, for your kind comments about my post-prom party thread. It was an entertaining evening, and many cc'ers shared their experiences, offered great suggestions (which helped me to prepare), and enjoyed reading my hourly updates as the party progressed. I received many positive comments about that thread, and I appreciated the suggestions and warnings made by others (eg, I would nave NEVER considered looking for contraband stashed in the washer or dryer! Fortunately there was none). This is, in general, the spirit of CC. People asking for information, getting helpful suggestions, and sharing their experiences. The notable exception are the political posts. They are usually contentious. Another wild place is the CC cafe. Scary place down there....</p>
<p>For the sake of clarification, I am reposting information I noted elsewhere about the terminology "ABD".
[quote]
For those whe aren't familiar, the term "ABD" means a person didnt finish their degreee, for whatever reason. Some people fail their qualifying exams, some people dont get their research design approved by their dissertation committee or or the IRB (Institution Review Board) if they even get that far in the proposal or design of a research project), and some people just get a job with their masters degree (if they get a masters degree along the way in the course of their training) and just get focused on other things and never finish their doctoral requirements. There is no certification or title for being "ABD". It just means the person didnt finish their program of study.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>From your description, it sounds like you chose to discontinue your education after acquiring your Masters degree. Don't know how many additional courses you took, whether or not you took your quals/comps (whatever they were called at your institution) or if you put together a dissertation committee and wrote a dissertation research proposal to present to it. It doesn't matter. However, for the sake of accuracy, you have a Masters degree. Unfortunately unless you go all the way to completion of a Ph.D., you don't get "credit" for anything past the Masters. Some doctoral programs don't even offer the Masters degree along the way, so if someone doesn't finish the program, regardless of how many years they attended their post-bacalaureate program, they have no advanced degree past their BA (or BS). That would be like a person who didn't finish college. They don't get a 2 yr AA degree even if they finished 2 or 3 years. They get no degree. Also, some people complete a terminal Masters degree in one school, and then apply to a doctoral program at another school. If they get kicked out of, or don't complete the doctoral program for whatever reason, at least they have the Masters degree from the previous school. Just clarifying for our readers.</p>
<p>jym: Good post....thanks</p>
<p>Actually at many universities, those who finish their PhD oral exams get a DPhil degree -- after the dissertation, they get a PhD. And going up to the point of the dissertation is an achievement, requiring much study and hard work and is worth some respect.
The hostility on this thread is baffling. It is doubtless true that there are parents who unduly focus on Ivy League schools and drive their children crazy -- there are many examples of it on CC. It can be a distorted focus.</p>
<p>^^Not quite. I think you are thinking of the CPhil (Candidate of Philosophy) designation (it's not really a degree - there is no diploma) for those who finish their orals but not their dissertation.</p>
<p>The D.Phil. and Ph.D are equivalent, the D.Phil. being the older and now old fashioned form of the degree. Only a few schools still award the D.Phil. the most notable being Oxford. Most others universities have updated to the more modern Ph.D.</p>
<p>"Doctor of Philosophy, abbreviated Ph.D. for the Latin Philosophi</p>
<p>mamenyu-
To update you a bit on why poeple have grown weary and frustrated, peek at these two posts (from different threads on the same theme) written by coureur and cellardweller to the OP:</p>
<p>By Coureur: ^^I can't answer for Xiggi, but I see a lot of merit in some of the ideas behind your posts, but I can certainly see why they annoy so many people.</p>
<p>But the merit buried in your posts is nothing new to CC. As Xiggi and other have pointed out there are hundreds of posts and threads here trying to lower the admissions stress and focus attention on schools other than the top few. These are certainly worthy ideas that need discussion here on CC and elsewhere. To the extent that you promote these ideas in an honest and forthright manner, you will find many friends on CC and many who agree with you, including me.</p>
<p>But to the extent that you begin thread after thread dishonestly, by pretending to be interested in the opinions of others about this or that topic but are really just setting up yet another opportunity to promote your own tiresome anti-selective school campaign and insult those who think otherwise, you will make a lot of enemies on CC. Why not spend your time more productively promoting other these options instead to trying to tear down selective schools and the people who attend them?</p>
<p>To the extent that you tirelessly praise yourself about the 30 years of experience you have, you will continue to annoy people and turn them off to your message. </p>
<p>To the extent that you repeatedly imply that parents who made any choices different from the ones you made in raising your kids are bad parents, you will continue to annoy people and turn them off to your message. </p>
<p>To the extent that you keep insisting that parents confess offenses that they are not guilty of, you will continue to annoy people and turn them off to your message. </p>
<p>To the extent that you continue to proclaim yourself as "wise," you will continue to annoy people and turn them off to your message. Anyone who labels himself as "wise" isn't.
--------------------------------------------------------------</p>
<p>Posted by cellardweller:
OBW:</p>
<p>It is hard to take you seriously when you have nothing but scorn for the entire CC boards you claim to contribute to:</p>
<p>Posted 6/11</p>
<p>Quote:
If she's on CC, get her off of it ASAP. Have her avoid it like the plague! </p>
<p>or
Posted 6/7</p>
<p>Quote:
but much of what I see on CC contains misinformation and is largely based on opinion (with biases included) that is particularly schewed (sic) in favor of the more prestigious colleges. </p>
<p>Why this OBSESSION with the Ivies and elite colleges and starting the same post over and over again?</p>
<p>Thread started 3/29</p>
<p>Quote:
Parents: "Come Clean...Let Others Learn From Your Mistakes </p>
<p>I am particularly interested in knowing whether there is anyone willing to admit that you were overly involved in the process, pushed for YOUR college choices, focused too much on the "elite" colleges, put too much pressure on your adolescent, etc. </p>
<p>Thread started 6/2</p>
<p>Quote:
Teens Too Caught Up In Whole College Thing?</p>
<p>Also, why do you think students become so obsessed with getting into a prestigious college? </p>
<p>Thread started 6/15</p>
<p>Quote:
Are Parents Pushing Too Hard? </p>
<p>In my thirty years as a college counselor (now retired), I saw a variety of parenting styles in the college selection and admission processes. Over that period of time, the number of parents wanting their child to get into an "elite" college seemed to grow with each passing year. By the time I retired, it was clearly the worst I had ever seen it. </p>
<p>Thread started 6/18</p>
<p>Quote:
Ivy Obsession: Does It Start With Students Or Parents? </p>
<p>Many students and parents, especially those on CC, seem to be absolutely obsessed with Ivy-type schools. In families where "Ivy Obsessionitis" (my term for obsession with elite colleges) exists, did this "phenomenon" begin with the parents or their children? </p>
<p>Under the guise of starting threads you seem to only be seeking a vehicle to push your mantra: </p>
<p>Posted 6/7</p>
<p>Quote:
Let's not use info like that on this post to draw the conclusion that Harvard is better than "State U."! </p>
<p>or</p>
<p>Posted 6/11</p>
<p>Quote:
Most CC'ers are OBSESSED with the elite schools, and don't pay attention to the other 95% of colleges out there. Most of the talk is about places like HYPSM, or schools of that type. </p>
<p>or </p>
<p>Posted 6/13</p>
<p>Quote:
In your communities and schools, are you seeing this phenomenon whereby the parent seems to want an "elite" college more than the student? </p>
<p>Why the silly anecdotes rather than some facts:</p>
<p>Quote:
Posted 6/2
(a) The Ivy-type girl, who went to "Average State U" because it was a better fit for what she was looking for in a college, who got into FIVE medical schools.</p>
<p>(b) The Ivy-type boy, who went to "Average State U" because of cost, who got into a top Ivy Law School</p>
<p>(c) The intelligent "go-getter" with great analytical skills, who went to "above average private liberal arts college," who is now with a top investment banking firm on Wall Street.</p>
<p>(d) The Ivy-type boy, who turned down two Ivies and went to "Large State U," who got his Ph.D. at MIT.</p>
<p>I could go on with story after story after story. </p>
<p>Please spare us the tear jerkers and your relentless use of your supposed 30 year counseling experience to support every weak argument.</p>
<p>Posted 6/2</p>
<p>Quote:
but based on having worked with thousands of students over thirty years, and seeing the results first hand, I firmly stand by what I say. </p>
<p>Quote:
I spent 30 years as a college counselor, and can tell you that your situation is not all that unique. </p>
<p>Posted 6/4</p>
<p>Quote:
I spent 30 years as a college counselor (now retired). </p>
<p>Posted 6/5</p>
<p>Quote:
I worked as a college counselor in a public school for 30 years, and my students gained admission to all of the same colleges as anyone else. </p>
<p>Posted 6/5</p>
<p>Quote:
Even though I spent thirty years in the field of education, I never quite "got" the whole concept of Boarding Schools. </p>
<p>Posted 6/19/07</p>
<p>Quote:
Unless you've been on the "front lines" of college admission, it's hard to fully appreciate what I'm talking about. </p>
<p>Are you really surprised to be called a troll? What is a troll anyway? Here are some of the characteristics I have accumulated from 30 years working in the computer industry from when the Internet was just the Darpanet. Let me tell you, unless you have been in the front lines chasing trolls it is hard to tell a troll from a regular poster. </p>
<p>a) A troll is relentless
b) A troll is interested in only one topic
c) A troll loves to create controversy
d) A troll cannot be convinced with facts as his position cannot be changed
e) When faced with a superior counterargument a troll goes underground
f) A troll is deeply insecure and really wants to be liked
g) A troll will always deny he is a troll
h) When found out a troll will disappear for a while only to come back later as his desire to troll is addictive</p>
<p>Let us hear from the rest of posters on CC. Is OBW a troll or is he genuinely interested in helping the masses make the right college choice? Is he right that sites like CC are just feeding the obsession with elite colleges or is he just ignorant because he went to State U. and his kids to 3rd tier colleges? Let us open the mikes to the pushy parents and obsessed students. OBW really wants your input. He feels really bad to be called a troll and if he is seen as a troll nobody will pay attention to his posts any more and nobody will buy his latest book. "How I got in to Harvard Law from community college".</p>
<p>Thanks in advance</p>
<p>Who knows, OBW might not be a troll. But he seems to want to emulate them. By starting threads basically insulting CC members, OBW is alienating the people s/he is wishing to help and is putting them on the defensive.</p>
<p>jym pretty much sums it</p>
<p>There are what I call "the vocal few", the same five or six (see above posts) who have to bash me because they are not tough-skinned enough to hear what I have to say....it goes against the grain of what most CC'ers believe. Perhaps I'm annoying, perhaps I'm not polite enough, perhaps what I'm saying hits too close to home for "the vocal few," perhaps they feel guilty, perhaps they are in denial....who knows? Based on their constant bashing, relentless name-calling (troll, old fool, etc.), and anger, some of what I've said must have struck a nerve with them.</p>
<p>But, when "the vocal few" must resort to bashing and name-calling, maybe they ought to take a look at their own behavior on CC instead of being so critical of mine.</p>
<p>Thanks.</p>
<p>mamenyu asked the reason for the annoyance. Only right to provide her with an answer. By the way, these kinds of comments
[quote]
....who have to bash me because they are not tough-skinned enough to hear what I have to say....it goes against the grain of what most CC'ers believe... perhaps they feel guilty, perhaps they are in denial....who knows....some of what I've said must have struck a nerve with them.
[/quote]
is what really annoys people. Sorry, OBW but you are WRONG. However, you persist in your belief that you know what other people think and how they feel. You do not. It is not what you think, but the supercilious, condescending attitude you have that really perturbs people. We have tried and tried and TRIED to tell you that if you would reconsider how you choose to come across, you might get a wider audience. You choose, instead, to continue to choose to come across as obnoxious. Not sure why you choose to take this tact, but you do. So, as long as you feel the need to "educate" people with your mission to rid CC and the world of your so-called ivy obsessed parents and kids, some of us will choose to continue on our mission to educate the cc'ers as to what you are really up to. Of course, most cc'ers are pretty bright and can ultimately figure it out for themselves. But, if you choose to repeat yourself ad nauseum, do not fault us for doing likewise. BTW, my s's are plenty bright and plenty accomplished in their own right, but did and do not choose to apply to the ivys. So, I am not one of your "Ivy obsessed". Let it go, would ya?? Stop claiming to be the one being attacked when your entire agenda is to attack those perceived volumes of over-the-top parents and their sick-o kids.</p>
<p>Ummmm.... Okie dokie, Smokie.</p>
<p>Where did I name-call you? I called you a troll, b/c you are very much acting like one. I'm sorry if you're offended, but that is my opinion. My opinion is also that you seem to be making the same thread over and over again to provoke CC members that resent your blanket statements.</p>
<p>Basically, jym said it all.</p>
<p>By the way, obw, it is far more than "five or six" people who have expressed their frustration with your attitude and approach. Read your own threads and you will count many, many MANY more than 5 or 6. Is this another of your made up facts? You readily acknowledge that you are boorish. Why in heavens name do you think this is a successful way of spreading your gospel, other than to be perceived as a martyr when we throw stones. Sheesh.</p>
<p>Ok, I have to now come to confession... My post (#42) , where I referred to my wonderfully educational thread about post prom parties ("informative, educative.. to the needy viewers") was entirely tongue-in-cheek!! But, it appears to have gone right over the OP's head, so I quietly chuckled and enjoyed the delightful praise for my helpful, informative thread. It was a fun, entertaining and much enjoyed thread. If people learned from it, that's great. But no one on that thread crammed opinions down anyone elses throat. Please, OBW, live and learn. Again... sheesh.</p>
<p>I've posted in several of your threads disagreeing with you, but I don't recall ever resorting to name calling. I did call this one "sensationalist garbage," which may be construed as offensive, but that was an assessment of the post and not its poster. I would have said so regardless of who posted it. </p>
<p>The only part of your original post I'm "guilty" of is having skipped a year of kindergarten, but I begged my parents to let me do so; my parents pressured me to go to school for free in Sweden, and I applied to college in the United States (including two Ivies) very much in spite of them. The reason that I'm protesting is that it's the opposite of close to home!</p>
<p>"However, you persist in your belief that you know what other people think and how they feel. You do not. It is not what you think, but the supercilious, condescending attitude you have that really perturbs people. "
Here here! Good summary jym. However I fear that OBW is never going to "get it". Doesn't seem to be able to understand any point we try to make. I feel very sorry for any HS student that was stuck with him as a counselor.</p>