Jamimom - Merit Aid

<p>jamimom - You stated on one thread the following:</p>

<p>"And Sybbie is quite right. Some of the schools do offer "teaser" packages and then replae the grants with loans the following year, or there is some qualifier to keep the money like an ornerous gpa. It is not easy to get a 3.0 at a school like Case. I know many kids who lost their scholarships there."</p>

<p>My son applied to Case & received a generous amount of aid in both merit & grants. I thought I read somewhere that the students have to maintain a 2.5 GPA their freshman year & then a 3.0 the following years to keep the merit portion. I figure that their grant money will possibly go down when the loan portion can go from the $2,625 up to the $3,500 sophmore year and then up to $5,500 the last two years. I was hoping that since all the colleges are charging anywhere from $2,000+ that the grant money stays the same.</p>

<p>My son & I have an appointment with the fin aid office this Friday. Is there anything I should specifically ask them since you seem to be familiar with Case? Thank you so much for any input.</p>

<p>Mominsearch, I used to live in Pittsburgh for many years, and Cleveland before that. During that time I knew many kids who applied to Case Western Reserve, and many who received scholarships. There was a period of time when there was a big to-do about the number of kids who would lose those merit awards that Case would give. Being the type of school that Case is, if your student is an engineering or math/science type major, it is is not easy to keep the gpa required to keep those scholarships. At one type the gpa threshhold was as high 3.25 or 3.2, I believe. It had gone down to 3.0, still not easy to maintain in the the technical majors, by the time I left the area. Here on the east coast, I don't see as many Case kids, so I am not as up with their scholarship requirements as to know the exact threshhold and rules. Personally, my D was dating a Case student who lost his scholarship in a bad semester, and also felt he lost his chance at med school--he left the school for personal reasons, and from what I can gather has some emotional and psychological issues to address. The stress of his full merit scholarship along with his very heavy course load and his ambitions to go to med school contributed somewhat to his problems, though, who knows, the seeds of any mental illness or neurosis do tend to sprout right about at college age, and he might have had problems elsewhere. To add to his stress, my D is premed at a much easier school with grade inflation, a heavily supported , nurturing premed program with tie ins to a med school, and this inferior track looked much surer to get to that ultimate goal, something that did not help his mental state. There were many things he could have done to alleviate the problem, but as a high achiever, he did not want to give an inch. </p>

<p>My friend's daughter who is now a successful engineer graduated from Case with a slew of loans as she lost her half tuition merit scholarship. Her grades fell enough that she could not hold onto the award, and it did cause a lot of problems in the family as she chose the school over WVU and Pitt and Penn State where she could have gone for free, and there were 2 more siblings to go. She is nearly 30 now, and freely states that it was a mistake for her, as she has colleagues in her field that completed their degrees at any of those schools and any number of schools where they did not have the loans she did. She is still paying them off and though engineering pays well, starting out with your peers with that loan over your head does give you a financial disadvantage.</p>

<p>All said, however, my next son will probably apply to Case. It is an excellent school, and I hold it in high esteeem. But if the merit award is important to you, certainly you must find out exactly what the situation is in losing the awards and what percent of the kids in your son's major have been losing the money for not maintaining academic standards. As to what numbers make you and S uncomfortable, that is a personal thing.More than half the kids who graduate from Case end up with loans and the average amount owed is over $20k. Those numbers are comparable to those of CMU's. Neither school guarantees 100% of need to be fulfilled through financial aid though most of it is. </p>

<p>Just offhand, I do know of over a half dozen kids who lost their Case scholarships, with about half of them kids whose families I knew pretty well, and I can tell you that there was much stress that went with the situation. I , too, lost a merit award many years ago, but went to a school where the financial aid situation was such that the money was replaced by financial aid and other resources (some loans) but the amounts back then were not that big and it was not such a trauma for my family. Don't even think my parents found out. But these days with such huge numbers, it can make a difference. And a kid with less than a 2.5 average has bleak prospects in transferring into the state engineering program. He is pretty much stuck where he is and needs to get through. My friend's D tried to transfer to Pitt where she was told she would have to go full pay there and not in engineering, and then reapply for any aid or scholarships when she was offered the Chancellors Scholarship right out of high school. </p>

<p>So getting specific numbers and situations, your son and you should know exactly what line he will have to toe in order to keep his award, and the risks that go with it. I don't believe in being afraid of challenges in life, but I do believe one should be as aware and prepared as possible when embarking on them. Anyone who is dependent on merit money needs to know exactly what terms those awards have. Simply a gpa is not good enough--over what period;is it cumulative, is there a grace semester, or is it an immediate cutoff? How many kids in specific majors keep this award? Can you get it back after you lose it, if you bring up your gpa? Would a semester leave of absence mean losing the award? Would changing your major mean losing the award? Would going under a number of credits mean losing the award? Would courses taken at another school count towards the gpa and credit count to keep the scholarship? These are some questions I would ask. And really any other situation that you can think about. Can your student go abroad, do a semester at another school? Many are so thrilled to get a scholarship, they do not read the terms which may not fit the particular kid's situation. I, for example, had a specific major stipulated for my award. Though I sort of knew it, I didn't really think about it. To keep my money I could not change majors. Could not take a semester off. In addition to performance requirements. Also, if you can talk to someone who currently has the same scholarship awarded to your son, it might be helpful as he could give you the inside current scoop of how it works and who he knows that has currently lost their scholarships and how. Sometimes the fin aid office is not aware of the nitty gritty details or are not about to divulge them the way a student will.</p>

<p>Thank you so much for your information. I will definately ask all of these questions. In our case (because we live about 1/2 hr from Case), he could always come home & live if he lost the award so I guess for us it wouldn't be so much of an issue. </p>

<p>I sure hope other people read this thread so that they to are aware of these questions that they might not think of asking. Not only for this college but for any college. He was offered full tuition/fees at a state school which is somewhat hard to pass up (i.e. - tuition yearly hikes). However, he just loves Case, the area surrounding Case, and he will be majoring in Art History/French with a minor in Studio Art. Case really has an awsome Art History program & the advantages of having accessability to the Cleveland Art Museum & it's library will serve him well. </p>

<p>I think that most of us think that because our kids are "cream of the crop" (GPA & SAT/ACT wise) and that since they have always received A's that they will get the same grades in college as they did in high school. I have discussed this with my son. It is a concern that I felt we needed to address. He enjoys being known as the "smart" kid and he is aware that he will no longer be the "best". However, he can't wait to go to college and be with students who want to be there to learn too. </p>

<p>Thank you so much for your help!</p>

<p>Mominsearch, congratulations to your son for so much success. Case is a great school--I am serious in saying that I am eyeing it for my own son, and it looks like it is a wonderful fit for him. It is not like he is pursuing it for the award only. As I said earlier, I do believe that one has to take some risks to get some awards, and the fact that the scholarships have conditions to them should not mean one should back off, but everyone should know precisely what the terms are, as it can impact future plans and situations. And you seem to have the mindset that can only be beneficial to your son, as you seem very aware that things can change in college. Kids who have focused on academics will be checking out other things in life and dealing with some dicey, difficult issues that are often their weak points. And it is too easy to have a bad semester even for the best of students. Emotions are powerful in providing all kinds of momentum. And in a school like Case, where there are so many high powered kids, and where the curriculum and grading scales are not so generous, one has to be aware of the possibilities of tanking a term. Since your son seems like such a fit for the program there, I don't think he should turn down this great opportunity, but he should certainly be aware of the conditions and potential situations. Let us know how the talk turns out. I have been away (though I was in Cleveland this past week!) from the scene there.</p>

<p>Thanks Jamimom for posting all those questions we should be asking with regards to merit awards, re. Case and other schools. We came across this last year with my older son, specifically Case and he decided against it for many of the reasons you stated. However, he was very impressed with the school. Having you list questions I did not even think about will help my next ones who will be graduating this year, next and two years later.</p>

<p>Thanks again,
Kat</p>

<p>jamimom - I will let you know what they say. We have been so lucky scholarship wise. Every school that he applied to offered him excellent merit scholarships along with art scholarships. We were very surprised and very thankful. We never approached the college search with where he could "get" the most money or assume that just because he had good scores, etc. that he would get in every college that he applied. </p>

<p>We went to each school before he applied to at least make sure that he liked the college, the surrounding community, and programs that they offered. He only applied to colleges in Ohio so this wasn't too difficult. It did take alot of time though but I wanted him to make sure that he would like every school in case he didn't get admitted to his top choice. After he was accepted we went at least twice more to talk to students (gotta love that cafeteria food) and sit in on classes, etc. I think that it was well worth the time because he really felt good about all the colleges & would not have been devestated if he had not been accepted to Case.</p>

<p>When we were at Case last week for the LAC program we asked if it was true that they had over 7,700 applications this year and the counselor we asked said she didn't know for sure but that it was probably close to this number. Last year there were 5,500 applications so for some reason interest is certainly up (no fee if you apply on-line). From my viewpoint I'm not sure that the no fee for applying on line is a good idea because so many students apply that really don't have any intention of going there. Some of them just want to see how much money they get offered. IMO this takes spots away from students who really want to go there but I guess it doesn't matter what I think anyway. </p>

<p>Thanks again for your help.</p>

<p>I have always felt that Case was underrated for the school it is. I am glad to see that it if getting the recognition, and if it took on line, free apps to do so, that's fine with me. I do believe that the merit awards may make a big difference, given the level of college tuition these days along with the selectivity of the schools. I know that colleges like Vanderbilt, Miami and Tulane are attracting serious attention from kids who were set on schools like BC, Carnegie Mellon, Michigan where they are not getting any money and the tab is a shocker. Each year you raise the costs another 5% gives it a spiral effect as the tuition is that much higher, rather than a flat, step increase.</p>

<p>I recently went to Case for an overnight visit. After hearing "horror" stories of students at Case losing their scholarship, I made sure to ask the students about how hard it is to maintain their scholarships. When I asked my guide, she almost seemed surprised by the question. She informed me that maintaining her scholarship has not been hard at all, and that if you just go to classes and stay awake you can keep the minimum GPA. All of the other students I talked to said the same thing, and no one knew of anyone who had lost his/her scholarship. This was a very relieving answer. I know that I have to be cautious, but I also know that I have never been one to slack off or do poorly. I also feel that my school has prepared me well for the challenges I will find in college. Finally, it seems to me that Case is working harder to make sure that the stdents can keep their scholarships. By lowering the minimum GPA,they have given the students much more "breathing room".</p>

<p>chelsea 2005 - Thanks for your input. I will have my son who is doing an overnight this Friday ask the students as well. The students that we know who go there don't know of anyone who has lost their scholarships. It really is in Case's best interest to make sure that they don't get a bad rap about student's losing their scholarships. Of course he is already enrolled to start next fall so I'm not sure it matters now:) Never hurts to ask though.</p>

<p>I can use some help. My son is a hiigh school junior and is looking for a very good engineering program (ME or EE). I just lost my job (my wife's income and is too high for need based aid) and we will need a high level of merit aid for him. This thread is mainly on Case. Can anyone please give us some other engineering programs that give a lot of aid.</p>

<p>My son is getting the Rensselaer Medal, but that is only 15K on a 41K annual cost school. Just took SAT's, but has been averaging 780M 720V 650W on the pre-tests, and he felt good about his exam. His GPA is 3.7 with a handful of unimpressive EC's. He does work 20 hrs/wk. We live in NJ, but he is not interested in any NJ school.</p>

<p>Do to this and other threads, we are looking at Tulane, Vandy, Penn St and Case. Any others that can be suggested, and possibly full rides. My son is expecting to perform as an undergraduate and then can go to a top level graduate school (i.e. UM, Cornell, MIT). Please give suggestions!!</p>

<p>Do any of these school offer a lot of aid to someone with my son's stats: Lehigh, Lafayette, Bucknell, UMd, VA T, Purdue, WPI, U Rochester,, U WI, Nova, Texas, Texas A&M?????</p>

<p>My understanding is that there is a "freshman forgiveness" program at Case that allows first-year students to drop classes up to the last day of a semester. Obviously, to keep a scholarship, the student has to earn a minimum number of credits. But allowing a student to drop a class at the last minute helps if they did poorly on a couple of exams. They have an extra month (than the upperclassmen) to try to bring up their grade--they don't have to panic and drop the class early. Hopefully they have been going to class all along, so if they do have to re-take it, it will be review. :)</p>

<p>High-achieving high school students have a tendency to get blown away the first time they get a "C" on an exam in college. This gives them time to re-group and learn how to study smarter, or get the guts to go visit the professor and ask for help. My daughter found the optional "exam review sessions" offered before some exams were very useful (I think most of them are videotaped and available online), and one class had weekly "optional" recitation times when the professor answered questions (both for lab and lecture) in a small classroom setting (also available online). Case is not an easy college, but my daughter loves it there because she is challenged!!</p>

<p>Also--regarding full (or partial) tuition scholarships...Check at each college to see if the scholarship award increases when the tuition increases each year. Many colleges are raising their tuition by as much as 10% per year, but the scholarships are often based upon the tuition the year the scholarship was awarded (the senior year of h.s)!!!</p>

<p>kosha - Thanks for your input. So glad to hear that your daughter loves the school. My son is looking forward to next year.</p>

<p>plantree - The best thing for you to do is go to each and everyone of the websites for the schools you are looking into. Case does offer very nice merit scholarships, but you have to remember that you are just eligible for them it does not automatically mean that you get them with certain recs. </p>

<p>One thing to keep in mind - just because you have high scores etc. doesn't even mean that you will get admission into top schools because the competition is very fierce. I have found that in many cases that the top schools don't offer very much merit aid. I guess they figure that they don't need to because they have enough students who can pay. I am not suggesting that your son doesn't apply to the top schools, but PLEASE check into other schools that you will be able to afford in case that he gets accepted with no scholarship. I have seen so many students apply only to the top schools and come April 1/15 find out they have been admitted but can't afford it with no good back up plan. From what I have seen the best scholarships given based on merit are from smaller second tier & below schools. Good luck!</p>

<p>kosha - You are right about tuition increases. I know that at all the colleges we checked out that the merit scholarship does not increase when the yearly tuition/R&B goes up. It stays the same for all four years.</p>

<p>Thanks Mominsearch,
I have seen the websites. They show many scholarships, some just for grades and scores, others which need to be applied to. However, I keep reading theads about full rides and the only full rides I see on websites are for 1 or maybe 2 students at a school. We am looking at a number of 2nd tier schools, but need to get more aid than the websites show. My son's stats are good, but not top 1%. We are visiting Bucknell and Nova this weekend. Do you think it is OK for us to inquire as to the Merit aid they give? I don't want any future application be blackballed because of our concern over aid.</p>

<p>PLANTREE--First of all, I think it is important for your son to get a feel for the kind of college he is interested in...Would he do well in a mega-university (some like being invisible in huge lecture halls) or would he need smaller classes? What interests does he have outside of classes? Some engineering colleges focus almost entirely on science/math--does he have other interests that he will want to participate in when he is not in classes (sports/music/drama)? Is he social/quiet? Is the greek scene important to him? How far away does he want to go?--keep in mind flying home can be expensive...Is he absolutely positive that he wants to study engineering? Lots of kids drop out after the first semester because they don't really understand what engineers do...Does he want to live in a city? When he can answer some of those questions, it will be possible to get information about colleges that can be generous with financial aid.</p>

<p>First we checked for ABET accreditation when choosing an engineering college...it is much easier to get into grad school (or get a job) if you go to a college that is ABET accredited in your major. Then we got out a map and drew circles around our house--5 hour driving distance, 10 hour, etc.; then we mapped the ABET colleges that we were interested in...we found many that we wouldn't have considered otherwise, that offered great merit aid.</p>

<p>Sometimes parents focus first on the financial aid picture instead of where our kids would be happy...although being realistic is important (my daughter chose not to apply to some colleges because they didn't offer merit aid), it is possible to find a wonderful college that fits our student comfortably, and the merit aid follows...My daughter was accepted to everywhere that she applied, but chose Case because she was comfortable there and loved the opportunities for research etc...the merit aid from Case was slightly better than all of the other college's offers, but we were most concerned about whether she would be happy there. She has met people at Case that said they only went there because of the financial aid--they don't seem as happy because it is not as good of a fit for them....just keep that in mind...</p>

<p>Thanks Kosha,
My son interests are in computers, computer games and chess. He also enjoys stage crew and tech crew. Last year he was interested in Math and Computers, but he took a summer engineering class at U. Md and fell in love with engineering. His goal this summer is to do an engineering program to help him decide on which discipline to pursue and to hone up on his Physics and Calculus to prepare for AP's in senior year. He has applied to MIT MITE2S and CMU Diversity, and is considering Vandy's PAVE if he doesn't get into the others.
As far as location and size of school he is open. He loved Cornell and RPI on a Presidents weekend trip. Very different schools (Cornell a Reach and no aid expected) in size and type of community, but both very cold in winter. He didn't like Cooper Union, no campus and just TOO much city. Going to visit Bucknell and Nova this weekend which will give him two more views. He also loved Maryland, but was there in the Summer with only a small fraction of the students on campus. He wants to see Case, Vandy, Tulane and CMU (again no aid), all city based schools. He also wants to visit UIUC, UM, UWI, Penn St, and Purdue, all mega sized schools. We will hopefully narrow down his choices by visiting a number of schools over Spring Break and this Summer.</p>

<p>Bucknell does not offer any merit aid. I would recommend that you buy a copy of the USN&WR Ultimate College Guide--it is a big fat directory and go to the front section where there is a list on colleges that offer the best financial and merit aid. You should also have a list of good engineering programs, something I cannot help you with. Look up each college individually and see where your son falls in the stats. If only 10% of the kids are getting merit awards and his stats put him in the 25% range, well, he ain't likely to get an award. Also look at schools with engineering programs athat are not as well known or have as much competition. CMU has no need to "buy" engineers, whereas some schools' programs are not as well known and they are more inclined to give merit aid to such majors. Then go on the web sites of the individual schools to get more info on specific scholarships that he might even directly ask for if he fits the specs. </p>

<p>U of Rochester has some good scholarships, I hear and I know a young man with similar interests to your son who got a rare award from Swarthmore with its very small engineering dept. But your best bet would be at the lesser known schools and programs. Also check out a new school, Olin, I believe in Massachusetts which like Cooper Union is tuition free. </p>

<p>Another route for engineering are programs like the Webb Institute, SUNY Maritime College, and like schools that are basically tuition free. Some are more selective than others. There are a number of choices he has with his skill sets and interests.</p>

<p>Jamimom,
I've learned so much from reading your posts - thanks! I do have a rather specific question, though: Is tuition reimbursement (my W works for a univ. that gives up to half of (their) tuition to faculty & staff kids) generally treated the same as an outside scholarship, i.e. it reduces need-based aid before it touches the EFC portion of tuition? I realize specific colleges may be outside the norm, but I'm wondering what the norm is.</p>

<p>Plantree,
Your S sounds like my twin sons (HS juniors). One of them has stats of 790/800 (old SAT), 3.5, horrible ECs, and the other has 730/690, 3.3, fair ECs. Both are good kids, introverts, probably will be applying to engineering schools. Case is definitely on the radar screen, but we probably won't get a chance to visit until summer.</p>

<p>Tuition reimbursement has always been treated as a dollar for dollar reduction of financial aid every case I have seen. The whole objective of the program is to reduce the cost of tuiton for you, and it should not be a windfall. Individual colleges may treat this differently, and certainly it will not affect pure merit aid, but clearly you should not get additional financial aid dollars without some consideration for this benefit, and what I have seen, is that they take the full amount dollar for dollar.</p>