<p>Yale always used to look for people with leadership skills too (although certainly not nearly as much as Harvard – Yale has always been more academically oriented!), but if that’s what they were looking for from me, then I’ve been a major disappointment. Sometimes I think I can barely lead my own life, never mind any kind of community or other organization! I’ve consistently and deliberately passed up every opportunity of that kind that I’ve ever had (especially in the last five years or so); I’m simply not that kind of person. I wouldn’t want to be even a microcelebrity! And the same is true of most of the people I knew in college.</p>
<p>There you go, gourmetmom! A great story and a great ice-breaker.</p>
<p>I haven’t heard of this book, but I will plan to read it. Sounds fascinating.</p>
<p>For another very interesting view of the origins of the Ivy League approach to admissions, read this New Yorker article:
[Getting</a> In : The New Yorker](<a href=“Getting In | The New Yorker”>Getting In | The New Yorker)</p>
<p>It draws a distinction between the “best graduates” approach and the “best students” approach.</p>
<p>I’ve always found it fascinating that just about every single one of the factors involved in the search for “well-rounded” students (and the search for well-rounded students itself) – extracurricular activities, geographic diversity, letters of recommendation, personal interviews, the search for “leaders” – had its origins in one motive and one motive only: keep out the Jews. Period, end of story. And now people act as if all of these factors were handed down by God at the same time as the Ten Commandments.</p>
<p>Part of it was the emphasis on “manliness” as one of the prime desirable attributes (given the popular stereotypes of Jewish men as being pale, sickly, and not “really” men):</p>
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<p>If that had still been the ideal in the early 1970’s, I can think of a couple of reasons I wouldn’t have gotten in!</p>
<p>Howe’s counterpart at Harvard had similar ideas:</p>
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<p>Leaders, shmeaders; what they really wanted was to keep out Jews and homosexuals as much as possible.</p>
<p>And according to that book, this was still going on at Harvard as late as the 1960’s:</p>
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<p>To me, the idea that Harvard or other Ivy League schools should be lauded and congratulated for these so-called standards is repugnant, no matter what nice language about “leadership” the standards are dressed up in.</p>
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<p>Really? That’s reprehensible!</p>
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<p>Actually, I read a motivational book that God actually didn’t finish matriculating. It just goes to show; you can be the ruler of the entire universe without a fancy Ivy League degree as long as you work hard, seize opportunities, know how to network, and are omnipotent.</p>
<p>^^Let’s not dismiss what has evolved to what we have today just because it had a shameful root. The New Yorker article was a good read, thanks to DP. There are certain merits about the current admissions system. What we can argue is whether our elite institutions should be so concerned about the future wealth and political influence of its graduates, so much so that they aim to admit only those that show signs of this type of future “success”.</p>
<p>The article’s conclusion:</p>
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<p>Yes yes, what a history. We don’t like the practice that keeps certain people out, then or now, but keeping a top school top all those years must have something to do with its admissions policies.</p>
<p>But I suppose it all worked out in the end, even if the mindset behind it sounds like something McCarthy or Goebbels might have cooked up. Harvard was just reflecting the mindset shared by many (most?) Americans at the time.</p>
<p>DonnaL, I had the same horrified reaction when I read the article several years ago. (It was sent to me by a Canadian, whose impression of the American university application process mirrors that of the author.)</p>
<p>I was so appalled I was ashamed to have participated in the process. </p>
<p>It comports with my experience, though, that many people came in amazing, continued to be amazing, and have gone forth to remain amazing throughout the ensuing years. I think some of us came in thinking we were amazing and were immediately confronted with what amazing really looks like and felt very humbled, and in some cases, never quite recovered.</p>
<p>I’d like to send my not-traditionally-amazing daughter someplace that uses a “best students” selection approach, but I’m not sure how to figure out where that might be.</p>
<p>Getting back to the original post:
This book is a must-read!
One thing to realize, however, is that “yield” is no longer part of the USNWR formula, as it was when this book was written. Has anyone noticed a decrease in “Tufts syndrome” because of this?</p>
<p>I wonder how the current deliberations and criteria will be viewed a few decades from now - where the definitions of “fit”, leadership, well-lopsided, diversity etc. and the way recommendations and ecs are evaluated – will be seen through a retrospective lens. I think many aspects will be seem just as strange to future generations as the Harvard/ Yale man ideal does to us now.</p>
<p>“The key to admissions is to APPEAR to be a leader. Often its just pushiness or assertiveness. There are figure heads, bureaucrats, administrators, managers and leaders all heading up school and local organizations. Leaders are in a small minority.”</p>
<p>What you said is what many applicants to elite schools erroneously believe. They assume that all they need is a title. Recommendations, interviews, and probably even essays can help determine if the person is basically a figurehead or really is being a leader: organizing projects, inspiring people, etc.</p>
<p>One doesn’t need to have a title to be a leader either. Some of the best leaders I have encountered (including at top colleges) were people who made a difference although they may not have had a particular title.</p>
<p>How can one tell whether an applicant exhibited leadership or simply had a title? Ask questions like, “Give me an example of how your presence in the organization made a difference.” “Give me an example of a project that you created or organized?” “What was the most difficult challenge that you encountered when you were [insert leadership title here] and how did you handle that challenge?”</p>
<p>One of the most impressive young leaders whom I ever interviewed was a student who had applied to be head of her high school’s band, but didn’t win the election. She did, however, agree to become wardrobe mistress, and was the first student ever to have that position.</p>
<p>She was responsible for maintaining the uniforms of the 100 band members: making sure they were cleaned every week and in good repair. She created a special system to organize this. Due to her position as wardrobe mistress, she was on the band’s board, and there, she instituted a program to help freshmen members adapt to the band. She did this because she remembered how difficult it had been for her to learn about the band rules and to find friends there when she was a freshman.</p>
<p>She ended up at a top 5 college.</p>
<p>I live in one of the HYPSM communities. I’ve been appointed by the mayor to serve on significant committees, chaired fund raising events at our local top 100 high school, been the parent representative appointed by the principal to statewide educational task forces etc. On several occasions, my co-chair has been an Ivy grad. I’ve found the Ivy grads lacking in leadership skills, even shirking duties, expecting “worker bees” (her terminology, not mine) to do all the work. The Ivy grads failed to lead by example, didn’t problem solve and demonstrated attitudes towards other volunteers, many of whom worked with me previously, which were off-putting. Anecdotal evidence to be sure. But it was my experience. And in contrast, other non Ivy chairs were a pleasure to work with, including one from a small university outside Boston, yes, Tufts.</p>
<p>^ I don’t think generalizations, positive or negative, are helpful, let alone accurate. Not all, or necessarily most, Ivy grads have attitude. I’m sorry for your unfortunate experience, but my – and others’ – anecdotal experience would contradict yours right and left. These are not meaningful stereotypes.</p>
<p>(Just to let you know, I get just as irritated when snobs classify all public U’s as “factories,” etc.)</p>
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<p>That is NOT leadership, it is administration.</p>
<p>How is this not leadership? Are you suggesting that only CEOs or founders of companies are leaders…all the other people in management positions are ‘just administrators’? </p>
<p>Sure, if one is talking about those that only execute the prevading rules, maintaining the status quo, then I’d agree with you. But people who develop a goal and take initiative, who create positive change by mobilizing others (in any contexts in which they find themselves), are leading. </p>
<p>One doesn’t need a title, or to be the ‘top’ of something to be demonstrating leadership. Moreover, this is a much more realistic (and genuine) form of leadership than you see among most kids in HS who are simply padding their resumes (e.g. starting a club, being voted president…pff).</p>
<p>DonnaL,
Excellent posts (#64 and #67.) The history of using personal evaluations in college admissions is disgusting. </p>
<p>And I agree with broetchen:
Actually, we don’t need to wait until the future – our system already seems pretty strange to many outside of this country.</p>
<p>I personally consider it absurd to try to evaluate “leadership” or aim to “build a class,” though of course colleges are free to give weight to whatever silly criteria they choose.</p>
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<p>I didn’t say anything about CEOs or founders of companies, and I didn’t use the word ‘just’.</p>
<p>But be serious, looking after the uniforms may be hard work and show conscientiousness and dedication but it is not leadership. Making the coffee, supplying sandwiches, keeping score, etc. is not leadership either.</p>
<p>Nor is starting a club or being voted president, necessarily.</p>
<p>She did leadership in taking responsibility for an important and complicated task. Her leadership involved being responsible, well organized, and creating an organization system. She also had to work with all members of the band, and with a variety of adults. By doing all of that she also was leading by example.</p>
<p>In addition, she was on the band’s board and used that position to create an orientation program for freshmen, another fine example of leadership: She saw a problem and created a solution.</p>
<p>And, by the way, administrators are leaders.</p>