<p>Well as usual I have a foot in each camp. I also would rather the forms be set up so that the kid wasn't signing on the parents data, because I agree with the premise that the child has limited ability to verify the numbers they are certifying are correct, but that is the system we have in place now. To ask a kid to sign something this important but tell them they can't read it is a very strange lesson to teach IMO. </p>
<p>As I learned on the other thread, I know several people shudder at the thought of their kids reading the Fafsa info and believe that this would lead to unrealistic expectations on the kid's part. Not at my house, but as I learned on the other thread, my house may be different. My daughter may have an easier time understanding our finances because our lives may not be as complicated (I guess) and the concepts not as difficult to teach (I guess). But then again, we have no money so there is no great risk or her saying-why don't you just write a check? LOL.</p>
<p>But the fact remains that I am not going to teach an adult to sign anything without having the opportunity to read it.</p>
<p>IMHO, this entire discussion boils down to a personal decision by the parents whether or not to disclose financial information to the child. With the electronic signature via PIN, the child doesn't necessarily see the final form when he/she "signs" it.</p>
<p>Every case is different. My D is at boarding school, so I filled out the forms. It would have been ridiculous to bring her home so she could review the FAFSA before "signing" it. She is aware of our philosophy regarding the financing of her education and of our ability to pay. I believe that communication is the vital issue of the situation, and not that she needs to see exactly what we earn and have in the bank.</p>
<p>We don't divulge all of our financial information to our children. This can be a dangerous endeavor. For example, H has a gun and sword collection worth tens of thousands that has proven to be an excellent investment. There are also jewelry and other collections in the house. This is not information that should be shared with a teenager and ultimately his/her friends via casual discussion amongst the teens. Sharing this knowledge can pose a physical danger to the family. It is also unwise for families of wealth to share the exact details of their worth with their children as it could pose a kidnapping threat.</p>
<p>When you say you are asking a kid to sign something important but telling them they can't read it....in my case, we never said "you can't read this"....they had no interest in reading it...nor would really understand it.....nor needed to read it. They saw it as our taking care of the application and that we are taking care of paying back the loans and they know where that money will come from and who will pay it and from where. The rest of the stuff about our income and expenses...they don't need those details...they are not really relevant to what they need to know which is what Sybbie was saying...the part they need to know is who is responsible for paying what for college and how that will be taken care of. They don't need to know every aspect of income and expenses of the parents. It is not like we refused to show them but I think they'd agree that they did not need that information and we have no strong desire to share it. They know the parts they need to know and they understand the general family financial picture. </p>
<p>I don't have the issues that some have raised though I understand them...the ones about divorced parents, for instance, or the ones who fear their kids may have unrealistic expectations about money if they saw this or that. My kids realistically know the general idea about their family's financial picture. They are not about to ask for more or anything of that sort. If anything, I think if they knew each detail, they'd be asking for less. :-) They'd see the hard time we have affording this or that but that we do put them first and so forth. We are honest with them about what we can and can't afford. They have to pay for certain things themselves even when they see rich friends at college whose parents are paying for that same line item. By the same token, they have much poorer friends at home and know that their parents don't pay for some of the things we do for them, so they have a clear understanding of the financial picture without knowing each paycheck and each exact expense we have in detail. Like I said, the motivation is not to say "you can't read this or know this" but more that they don't need to and frankly, have never asked. They know each person's role in the matter and questions are answered and it has been explained how college will be paid for. The rest is really our domain....we think that, they think that, no probemo. I don't know what my parents earned or the value of their estate or anything else. When I need to know, that will happen.</p>
<p>Come to think of it, my kids are away at school as well and I think my husband just did the FAFSA stuff and I imagine there was some electronic signature then. They did not come home to sign anything either.</p>
<p>My kid didn't read it all either (at least I don't think so) and I don't see that as the point . She could have. (Still can. It's in her FA file.) It was her document ACCORDING TO THE GOVERNMENT. Not according to me. I didn't make the rules. </p>
<p>The OP on the other thread wanted advice on how to file the fafsa without the kid having an opportunity to see it so that the kid wouldn't blab it to the ex. They did want it "secret". The kid did not choose anything. If your kid selects that option of signing without looking , then fine. I have no problem with that. That's a legitimate family dynamic. A choice a family can make together with each others input. (Like on our taxes, my wife signs what I prepare but I don't tell her she can't look at it. I'm sure there are some spouses that wish that was secret , too. Heck, I wish there was some way I didn't have to look at it. )</p>
<p>I just find it interesting that a kid is adult enough to choose there own school , major, life plan without parental intrusion into the decision process (helicoptering or worse according to some) but not adult enough to handle how much pa and ma make. (And before you say it's none of their business, take it up with your congressperson -not me- because the form says it is. You may not like it, but it is what it is until you get it changed.)</p>
<p>As I recall, I heard parents moan and groan about the difficultly in completing the FAFSA form, so I approached it with some trepidation the first time. When I looked at it my reaction was, huh-what was all the fuss about.</p>
<p>I think my son would have had little trouble in completing it provided he had a copy of his and our completed 2003 tax returns. However I did complete the FAFSA on his behalf and would have gone over each item if he had wanted to do that. He didn't.</p>
<p>I think that one thing which could be done in the interest of complete honesty is to allow the FAFSA be signed by the preparer, just like the IRS tax returns do. This would be an acknowledgement that the student did not prepare the FAFSA but was taking legal responsibility for the information and data provided by the preparer. Perhaps the wording on the FAFSA acknowledges this fact. I hope so.</p>
<p>(Gosh, I really hate the timed out on the edit feature. Sure would be nice to fix "there" for "their". Oh, well. Note to self - learn to type. )</p>
<p>"The preparer's legal signature indicates that the information provided on your FAFSA is accurate to the best of their knowledge. A preparer is usually paid for their services, but not always.</p>
<p>A preparer is someone other than you, your spouse, or your parents."</p>
<p>So I get the not disclosing to the ex thing. But I also seem to hear a sub-text of parents who are chosing to live in such a way that what might appear to be discretionary income is spent on things other than college, i.e. savings, nice cars, whatever. I will not comment. Every family has their own values - but I do think that kids will find out eventually that their parents had other priorities than college, so they might as well know right away. IMO.</p>
<p>Of course, we have a different situation, so who am I to say anything. </p>
<p>In our case I wish we had filled out FAFSA. I have always worried that my kids look around at the way we live and think it would be possible to do this and have a mom who was home for 7 years and a dad who does public interest save the world work. The answer is, it's not possible, unless of course mom just happened to have inherited some money. So I have made a real effort to explain this to the kids but it's no fun, and makes me always the voice of doom. Hmm. Maybe we will fill out FAFSA just to be able to really lay it out to the kids before they decide to go save the world and then realize they can't have the vacation in Switzerland...</p>
<p>My D actually said to me, well Mom it's Grandfather who pays for my college. And I had to explain to her that it was my decision to have those gifts go to her, that I could have taken it for a bigger house or whatever. It's an ongoing dialogue.</p>
<p>roshke, that government of ours can and has in several instances made 16 or 17 year olds responsible. Fed student loans entered into at age 16 or 17, for one instance -there are several, are made legally binding on a minor. This is the same kind of modification of the basic premise that a minor is under the disabilities of minority until age 18. </p>
<p>They make the rules , not us and in this instance they have said that the student filling out THEIR application for Federal Aid is liable for the accuracy of the information contained in THEIR application. That THEY certify that the data placed into the formula is correct, accurate data that THEY wish the government to use in determing THEIR eligibility for these Federal programs. It's not the parents' app, not the parents' choice to apply , not the parents' eligibilty for the program that's at issue with Pell, Stafford loans, etc. (except I guess parent loans but that's another matter). That's just the way the Feds have set it up. </p>
<p>"A preparer is anyone who fills out your FAFSA, on your behalf, other than your parents or your spouse. A preparer is anyone who charges a fee for filling out the FAFSA. The law requires a preparer to enter their Social Security Number (SSN) or Employer Identification Number (EIN) to certify that the information on your FAFSA is correct and complete to the best of their knowledge. </p>
<p>High school counselors, school financial aid administrators, and others who help you complete your application, are considered preparers (even if they were not paid for their services)."</p>
<p>Curmudge--allow me to hijack your thread for a moment...</p>
<p>Alumother-my mother inherited Grandmother's money "earmarked" for our college tuition, but my mother chose to spend it on cars, jewelry, swimming pool, and sending herself to a private college. She chose NOT to spend it to send her 2 college-aged daughters to college! We grew up listening to our grandmother tell us not to worry, she had saved to be sure we would be able to go to college. I did go, but thanks only to my will-power and the grace of the U. S. Department of Education. So, I appreciate your choice to spend your inheritance on your childrens' education, and I hope they one day appreciate your value system.</p>
<p>some of my thoughts...
It's easy on CC to fall into the mindset that parents OWE their kids a college education even if it means borrowing every dime. It's also common for the kids to feel entitled. But let's not forget that it is a lifestyle choice of the parents.</p>
<p>Some parents attend every sports event, science fair, concert, play, and some attend none. These usually cost nothing or a small fee. Some parents pay for private music, dance, and sports lessons and do without other niceties to make ends meet. It's not about the money. It's all about priorities and those priorities are determined by the parents.</p>
<p>So, rich, poor, or middle-class doesn't matter so much. If the parents place a high value on education, it's usually attainable financially. What's more important for the child is having a parent advising and assisting along the way.</p>
<p>Can't figure out why it should be such a secret - to my kids, or to anyone for that matter. It's not like every credit card company, mortgage company, and what not in the entire world doesn't know our last, intimate details.</p>
<p>
[quote]
But I also seem to hear a sub-text of parents who are chosing to live in such a way that what might appear to be discretionary income is spent on things other than college, i.e. savings, nice cars, whatever. I will not comment. Every family has their own values - but I do think that kids will find out eventually that their parents had other priorities than college, so they might as well know right away. IMO.
[/quote]
alumother~</p>
<p>This is just SO NOT where dh and I are coming from in this matter. In reality, we are in the polar opposite position as you are....my "uber" dysfunctional (but reasonably well-off, due to inheritance) family first disowned and then disinherited me and my children. There has not been and there will NEVER be any inheritance. Do I seriously want my children to know how close to the edge we've been sometimes, how we still ARE sometimes? Do I want them to worry, to fret, to fear? My answer to that is a resounding "NO!" I want them to feel secure in the knowledge that they WILL be taken care of, no matter what. THAT is our motivation. Those who choose not to share the details of their financial situations with their kids need not all be clumped into one despicable bunch. ~berurah
p.s. Our NEWEST car is 13 years old, but my son attends Duke. DEFINITELY speaks to our priorities, I think.</p>
<p>mini, maybe we are not "getting it" because by not having a lot we don't have a lot for them to find out about or to question. I'm not sure. </p>
<p>But I'm sure the response of the Feds to all these parents would be "Fine. If you don't want to play by these rules, then don't. Don't let your kid apply for the loans. Don't let your kid apply for the Pell Grants. You can easily do it by refusing to sign yourself. That stops it dead in its tracks. But if you choose that route then don't expect any help from us at all because these are our rules for applications to this government funded program."</p>
<p>And B. I certainly don't think anyone who has posted is despicable. I appreciate your situation and ours is not that different. A few things turn south and we are talking just a few and things will change dramatically and it can happen in a blink.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I'm sure the response of the Feds to all these parents would be "Fine. If you don't want to play by these rules, then don't. Don't let your kid apply for the loans. Don't let your kid apply for the Pell Grants. You can easily do it by refusing to sign yourself. That stops it dead in its tracks. But if you choose that route then don't expect any help from us at all because these are our rules for applications to this government funded program."
[/quote]
Oh, good GRIEF! I hope you are as morally upstanding in each and every area of your life as you are in this one, c-mudge. ~berurah</p>
<p>That was harsh-b. And totally uncalled for, IMO. I hope you'll edit that.</p>
<p>I didn't say that would MY response. I said that would be the Feds response. My response would be to talk to your kid and explain the situation. Bring them into the conversation. Explain that the g-men have set this screwy system up and here is what it is.</p>
<p>It was no more "harsh" than your assessment of me as a parent who chooses to not freely disclose my finances to my children. </p>
<p>Even so, I do apologize if I hurt your feelings. </p>
<p>But, my point was this....this type of thing can be taken to an illogical extreme. For example, have you thoroughly read each and every user agreement for software before you've checked the "I agree" button? I haven't, but remarkably, I still feel like a decent and ethical person.</p>
<p>I actually don't recall my son signing anything...it must have been done electronically by PIN number. Regardless, I am comfortable with the way it was handled. And in the end, that is what truly matters.</p>
<p>Apology accepted, B-we are in the same boat financially. Maybe worse. My life has taken turns that are disastrous financially and I hope I can keep the good ship righted long enough to get her through school before it completely tumps over. "For the tump-over, she is a' coming someday." It's an almost mathematical certainty . Do I explain that to my kid? Not in gory detail but she knows what she needs to know-there ain't no extra cash , and therefore we have to be smart to make this fly.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I didn't say that would MY response. I said that would be the Feds response. My response would be to talk to your kid and explain the situation. Bring them into the conversation. Explain that the g-men have set this screwy system up and here is what it is.
[/quote]
Well, C~</p>
<p>I don't EVER behave in a way that I feel is not in the best interests of my children, even if bureaucracy dictates that I should. Bureaucracies are set up to manage the masses, not to cater to the specific needs of individuals. </p>
<p>Believe me when I tell you that I have challenged "screwy rules" on many an occasion on behalf of my children and their best interests, and I am very proud to say that I've typically won! :)</p>
<p>
[quote]
Do I explain that to my kid? Not in gory detail but she knows what she needs to know-there ain't no extra cash , and therefore we have to be smart to make this fly.
[/quote]
C~</p>
<p>It certainly appears that we are more in agreement on this issue than I first thought....that's basically the extent of what my son knows as well. Only I told him that HE had to be "smart" to make this fly!! <em>lol</em> ;)</p>