<p>B- it seems that we DO have the same plan to finance their education- </p>
<p>have smart children. LOL.</p>
<p>Um, wasn't accusing anyone of being "despicable". </p>
<p>Let me explain my particular bias in favor of disclosure to kids. It's personal. I grew up in a family where money was absolutely not discussed in detail. As a result, I was completely in the dark about the extent of my family resources. First, it made me think that my house growing up was really nice just because we had good taste. I am not kidding you. Second, once I did find out the extent of our resources, I was misled and told I would never have to work.</p>
<p>Thousands of hours at a desk and in meetings and in airplanes I can tell you that wasn't true. Had someone ever just laid out the damn tax forms and let me understand how this all worked I would have made some different choices. Now you can say as an 18 year old, 21 year old etc. I should have known better. What can I say. I believed what I was told until I found out otherwise. Dumb.</p>
<p>The false information I got, first that we weren't rich and then that I always would be, wasn't malicious, not any of it. The first was done under the guise of politeness - it's not good breeding to talk about $$$ if you have it. The second was just out of wishful thinking and poor financial skills on my father's part. No harm, no foul. But with actual data I could have done some things very differently.</p>
<p>That's just the point, Curm....they don't need to know every gory detail of the parents' personal finances....they only need to know how they will be sent to college and things related to that issue. </p>
<p>I'm not sure my kids signed anything either and I think it might have been done online. I didn't see the forms myself. This was my husband's job to do. I helped the kids manage the application process and was there for them on that part and he took care of this task. </p>
<p>I also think that those of us who did not have our kids read over the line items on the FAFSA forms should not have assumptions made about our motivations. I didn't have the same motivations that some others have stated though I respect their reasons. I wasn't hiding anything. I surely, like berurah, don't want to be lumped in with the category...."if they saw what else we were spending on X or Y, and not their education....etc." That is not our case. Our kids do not see us doing something else instead of college funds. They see us as putting them first, even when we can't always afford it. They know that we value their education, that we can't afford it but we'll make it happen. It was done for us growing up and we'll do it for our kids. Like I said, earlier, if anything, if they saw every little financial thing, they might think how in the world are we doing this for them? But again, that is not my motivation. I had no motivation! I simply saw the financing of their education as our job....the filing of papers to secure aid as our job....and taking care of those loans as our job. I had no NEED to go over every line of our income and expenses with our children. They had no need to ask. All is good. They have no way to validate or sign off on whether it is correct or anything. This is not their worry. Theirs was to do their best, pick a school they wanted, do their best while there, earn money in summers for whatever we have said we can't pay for, manage their money, and we manage ours. They are responsible for X, and we're responsible for Y. I don't have to go over every line item in my Y but only to go over with them what they need to know that truly CONCERNS them, such as their college tuition. They have no need to know the rest. That's our choice but certainly doesn't have a lot of secrecy or motivation behind it. It is how I was brought up and how we have brought up our children. Like even you say, Curm, they don't need very gory detail. They don't need to fret about this or that debt we have. We told them what we could or would do for them. It is not like my kids are asking questions that we refuse to answer. They're fine with everything and so are we. I don't expect them to handle the financial forms for college because WE are the ones handling the financing of it. </p>
<p>Susan</p>
<p>Alumother, I did not see your post when I just posted but I respect that each of us is making these choices based on our personal situations, backgrounds, and values. That is how it should be. That is why I even said that I understand others' motivations even if I don't share the same...ie, the divorced parents who posted, or your background and the choices you have made to show your child your finances in detail.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Um, wasn't accusing anyone of being "despicable".
[/quote]
alumother~</p>
<p>Please forgive me. It was thoughtless of me to bandy about such a pejorative term in the way that I did. I suppose it is easy to do that when one is <em>feeling</em> judged, even if she <em>isn't</em> being judged, apparently. I think the thing that I'm most unclear on still is why ANYONE would concern him/herself with what some OTHER parent chooses to do re: the FAFSA information. I certainly have no issue whatsoever if some choose to share with their children in great detail. All I am asking for is the same consideration in return without my being made to feel deceitful or somehow lacking as a parent. </p>
<p>~berurah</p>
<p>
[quote]
I certainly have no issue whatsoever if some choose to share with their children in great detail. All I am asking for is the same consideration in return without my being made to feel deceitful or somehow lacking as a parent.
[/quote]
I'm with you Berurah. Our children know that we will not scrimp on their education. It's the one gift we can give them that no-one can ever take away.</p>
<p>berurah- I think there are alot more parents in your camp. I think the Fafsa forms are made in such a way that the faint of heart read them and just slink away and never ask for aid. For those of us that stay in the game and actually have the audacity to ask for aid, I just assumed (silly me) that most parents just filled out the forms. My kids were more than happy to get the pin# and let dad (I didn't have the patience to fill it out) do the "paperwork". I too may be old fashioned but I don't think its my kids business as to what the household income is. I think personal finances are exactly that-- PERSONAL and needn't be shared with my 17 & 19 year old. Hey, I only got a handle on my mom's finances when she turned 87 as it then became apparent that she was "forgetting" to pay her bills. And I can see with elderly parents that many are none too willing to share this information with their adult children. So I too am a bit floored by this full disclosure attitude that I have seen on this thread.</p>
<p>I think the discussion has strayed - wasn't the issue that students are required to sign the FAFSA, attesting to its veracity, and that they therefore could see what they were signing? As I recall, my s. didn't seem to have much interest in what he was signing, taking it on faith that it was accurate (and he would really have no way of knowing if it wasn't). BUT - there might be that rare student who thinks he should understand what it is he's signing (and any of them could glance at the figures and have an idea what the family income is). Maybe I'm missing the point (heads to medicine cabinet for tylenol).</p>
<p>While I certainly respect people's decision not to disclose financial information to their children, I am wondering about how people educate their children about financial matters. So many college kids graduate with immense consumer debt-which is far more crushing than educational loans. Shouldn't parents at least give their offspring pointers about how to manage money? I realize you can do this abstractly but still...</p>
<p>This semi-hijack is in part my fault - sorry. The FAFSA issue I cannot speak to. How much to disclose to your kids, TEHO. Otherwise known as to each his or her own. As I said, I have very strong experiential reasons for taking the path I have taken. The parental role always calls on us to choose between full revelation and protection - protection both of the kid from the pains of the adult world and of the parents' private lives. For me, since I know the dangers of ignorance, they loomed larger than the dangers of too much information.</p>
<p>PHampson, I think you start with simple matters and work your way up to mortgages, investments etc. Our kids always had an allowance, and were responsible for saving or spending it as they wish. Now our college son had to save money from graduation gifts and summer job to pay for books and entertainment expenses this year. It was simple to explain that he could budget X amount for books, and X amount for entertainment or eating out. He also has a credit card with a small limit, that he pays off each month in full. We explained that he should only charge what he can pay off, and I think this sets him up for good credit habits. When he graduates and has a job, he'll figure out how to budget his money, and I expect we'll be available for advice (solicited or not!)</p>
<p>AlumMother, as both TheMom and I suffered from ignorance, we've skewed in the other direction at age appropriate times. Starting with telling a three-year old "We can't afford that" to discussing complicated options and choices with a teen, which in passing reveal a lot of information. She is aware of the general provisions of our wills and I have given her counsel on both some things to do and some things to avoid when this becomes relevant to her, with the understanding that changing conditions could make my advice obsolete.</p>
<p>We haven't kept our son in the dark. Actually, it's more myself than my husband. I have told him that we're upper middle class and have savings. We can afford to send him to college full tuition. We came to this point in our lives by very good planning and by living a simple life. We are pretty frugal but my son isn't. I'm wondering now if I did the right thing. Although our frugality stems from my husband's spending habits and background - he came from a poor family. Like Alumother, I have one pair of good shoes, one pair of good handbag etc....and no desire to be Imelda Marcos..</p>
<p>So parent, did I do wrong, or am I on the right track?</p>
<p>
[quote]
I think the Fafsa forms are made in such a way that the faint of heart read them and just slink away and never ask for aid. For those of us that stay in the game and actually have the audacity to ask for aid, I just assumed (silly me) that most parents just filled out the forms. My kids were more than happy to get the pin# and let dad (I didn't have the patience to fill it out) do the "paperwork". I too may be old fashioned but I don't think its my kids business as to what the household income is. I think personal finances are exactly that-- PERSONAL and needn't be shared with my 17 & 19 year old.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>marny~</p>
<p>This would echo my sentiments exactly. Excellent post. </p>
<p>
[quote]
I'm with you Berurah. Our children know that we will not scrimp on their education. It's the one gift we can give them that no-one can ever take away.
[/quote]
choc~</p>
<p>yes. Yes. YES!! Absolutely.</p>
<p>~berurah</p>
<p>Just because one doesn't show their children their tax returns or FAFSA details of income/expenses, does not then imply that the converse of revealing that information is not teaching your kids how to manage money. i don't need to reveal our income and details of our bills to our kids to teach them to manage money. Both have earned money for quite some time. Both have been taught how to manage that money. Both now in college, receive an allowance for spending money and know how to deal with that. Same with checking accounts, etc. Both have a clothing allowance and must keep within that. Both are aware of what we'll pay for and what they have to pay for. And so on. Stuff can be taught about money and even about how college will be paid for, without also going over the details of the family's income and expenses line by line. </p>
<p>If my child was responsible for paying back the loans for college, then the discussions would have involved different things. But since WE are paying for college and WE will be responsible for all their loans and such, we have explained how they will be paid for. If there are any monies in their name, they know how that will be handled as well. It still doesn't require my sharing our tax returns. I still can teach my kids about money.</p>
<p>Susan</p>
<p>
[quote]
Just because one doesn't show their children their tax returns or FAFSA details of income/expenses, does not then imply that the converse of revealing that information is not teaching your kids how to manage money. i don't need to reveal our income and details of our bills to our kids to teach them to manage money.
[/quote]
This is so true....of course there are extremes at both ends. But the majority of us fall, in typical fashion, somewhere in the middle of the bell curve in terms of financial disclosure. </p>
<p>What I am hearing over and over on this thread is that most of us have done the very predictable....we have each developed our own "buzz" issues from our childhoods that we have turned around and addressed differently in our own parenting. Ironically, I, myself, have come full circle. My parents never disclosed much detail about personal financial matters. In turn, I <em>thought</em> I was absolutely committed to doing so. In the end, though, I came to understand the merits of their way and have chosen to follow suit (for the most part--we are generally a MUCH more open family than my birth family in every regard). </p>
<p>But, as with most things, this is simply a matter of personal choice/need/desire. I am and have ALWAYS been a "to each his own" type of person.</p>
<p>~berurah</p>
<p>achat - no matter what we do our kids will still make their own choices, influenced of course by the world around them.</p>
<p>Alumother, thanks. I just don't know...my husband does not approve of my son's spendthrift ways and grumbles to me about him. And I don't know what to do at this point - I probably can do nothing. Thanks, your responses are always so well thought out.</p>
<p>My grammar was horrible, but you get what I mean..</p>
<p>Wow, this topic certainly has elicited a number of interesting responses. I guess money really IS one of the "big three" topics!</p>
<p>Personally, as for teaching kids how to handle money, I think the way to do it is to have them earn it and be responsible for aspects of their own budgets. Filling them in on my and my H's numbers won't give them experience in making their own choices. My D knows that we paid for her room & board in college. If she chooses, on occasion, to eat off campus, it is on ** her** ticket from her summer earnings, etc. When she lived in D.C. this summer she got a great lesson in the cost of living in a prime urban center. It was the first time she was totally responsible for her own food shopping, etc. She learned how easily the money can go. </p>
<p>I realize this has gone a bit off topic, as the OP was talking specifically about FAFSA number sharing, but it then went into some suggesting that sharing family financial data is the way to inform kids on how to handle money.</p>
<p>I think families can share financial discussions without providing a full report. We try to involve the kids in decisions about vacation choices, and when they approach us about anything with a financial aspect we discuss it in general terms. My son, for example, is fascinated with planes, and we have discussed financial aspects of careers related to planes, as well as many of the costs of owning a plane that had not been on his radar. </p>
<p>Anyhow, I think this has been an interesting discussion, and people have managed to come to some understanding of different positions.</p>