Keeping Fafsa data private from your kid

Parents Forum
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<p>Jyber, Soozie, I understand what you mean. I probably did not do as good a job in teaching money management with my son when he was growing up. But my son is working at 2 jobs on campus. He still is a spendthrift, even by my definition. Credit card (yes, we made that mistake) bill last month was for $800. We told him we're not paying for more than $300 of credit card bill except for months of January and August. Last month was January. But he still has some wierd expenses on other months.</p>

<p>But I still don't understand why the expensive gifts for friends' birthdays, why the gasolene expenses, why he needs to go to NYC that often. Maybe because I am an immigrant and used to a different way of life when I was growing up....</p>

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<p>I think the whole issue of the kid "signing" is a red herring -- my kids have never "signed" any FAFSA form. I got the PINs by entering the kids' name, social security numbers & date of birth on the form; I prepared and submitted the information. My kids knew I was doing it - and in fact email is delivered to a shared account - but they were very happy to let me do this, and as far as I am concerned I was acting at their authorized representative. I doubt that either kid even knows what their PIN is. </p>

<p>FAFSA doesn't care - they care if the information is accurate. They use a selective verfication process to ensure accuracy. If they wanted it all to be a huge civics lesson in the importance of signing one's own name, they'd come up with a system more secure than the current PIN system -- which makes PIN information available to anyone who knows basic identifying details about the kid. Its pretty darn easy to change the email address the notification goes to, as well. I think for the email change there is added security created by one of those challenge systems, which requires the answer to questions such as "mother's maiden name" or "city where you were born". Duh. Wonder how I'll figure that out. </p>

<p>The time when the kid has to sign something is when they take out the loan.</p>

<p>Most colleges verify the information independently by asking to see copies of tax returns. Kids simply aren't in a position to know -- in a true case of fraud, the tax returns are also likely to be fraudulent - as where a parent is not reporting cash income or assets held in offshore accounts. </p>

<p>So basically what I am saying is that it easy to profess outrage at the kid being expected to "sign" something, but I think the reality is a substantial percentage of FAFSA's are filled out by parents, not kids, and the feds probably are well aware of that.</p>

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<p>Oh, Achat, I did not mean to direct my post to you at all -- as a matter of fact, I think I had missed your post originally. </p>

<p>I think some kids may simply have more of an inclination to be spenders or savers. With my D, who definitely has some "champagne tastes," I am trying to tune her in to how some choices might close off other possibilities. (For example, that if she is too free eating out during the early part of the school year, she might not be able to do it all all in the spring.)</p>

<p>Also, I do think that some kids rebel against their parents' ways. I came from a free-spending family (middle class, but lived fully up to the income -- and then some). I reacted by being very careful with money myself. My husband came from a family of similar economic background, but his family was very careful with money. So when we married he would often want to be more relaxed with spending money than I was. We eventually worked it out fine ourselves, but it will be interesting to see how our kids go. (I suspect one will be one way, and one the other!!)</p>

<p>If you and your son are open and communicating with each other on these issues, that is the best you can do, IMO, especially as he has the jobs so knows what it takes to earn the money he is spending. </p>

<p>I look forward to seeing my kids dealing with these things with my grandkids!! ;)</p>

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<p>Well calmom, it's not a red herring to all of us. To some of us its pretty important that the (in our case) adult child file their own application for federal financial aid as it is their rear-end hanging out over the fence, too. And it is their app much as you would like it not to be. It's been shown what the law requires of the signatories. It is certainly not the case that the kid was certifying the kid's data and the parents certified their data as was discussed earlier . The kid is certifying everything and is responsible for paying everything back with possible fines even if they were not acting purposely. I think that surprised some folks. </p>

<p>But I know that folks have their minds made up, and from private messages I know that some have learned a little that they didn't know, so it has been worthwhile from my perspective. I'll leave it to y'all to argue about how much a family should share other than that legally required because that conversation is truly a "to each their own".</p>

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<p>Achat - Thanks for what the kids call "props". Sounds like you may live in an affluent community, as I do. I've seen a lot of kids hit high school and start to adopt the ways of their new clan. It can be very tough, and denying them when you can afford to say yes can be hard to do. But hey, if he's giving presents to friends at least he is generous, right?</p>

<p>TheDad - In our house the discussions go like this. "Isn't it great we can go out to dinner? Isn't it great Mom has a job so we can afford it?"
And then there's always the discussion of California real estate prices vs. regular salaries vs. start-up fortunes...We have had to talk about this stuff early, prompted frequently by conversations starting with, "Mommy, why does Alex live in a mansion?" :)</p>

<p>BTW, neither of my kids are named Alex..... he he.</p>

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<p>I have 2 kids raised the same way, by the same parent (me), and one is Mr. Miser and the other is Ms. Spend-a-Lot. These kids were raised in an environment where money was tight, and about the only affect it has had is that Ms. Spend-a-Lot has an eye for a bargain -- so she's very pleased with herself if she can get a prom dress marked down from $250 to $80.... but then she goes right out and spends another $120 on shoes and purse to match. At age 18, Mr. Miser had enough personal savings to list on his FAFSA to drive his EFC up by a couple of thousand dollars; Ms. Spend-a-Lot has zilch. </p>

<p>This is mostly about personality. Parents who think that the way their kid turned out is mostly about upbringing usually have only one kid. Obviously we can influence things somewhat, by encouraging the good tendencies and trying to discourage the bad, and we certainly don't have to foster or support the bad habits by bailing out the over-spenders - but that's about it. I do find it comforting to blame Ms. Spend-a-lot's habits on the genes inherited from her father, because he is exactly the same way. </p>

<p>But it is a problem when it comes to disclosure of finances. If I told Mr. Miser that I had $X in the bank, he might be interested in a discussion of how to invest it. If I tell Ms. Spend-a-lot I have $X in the bank, she's going to start thinking of ways to spend it. We just don't see money in the same way. So it just isn't a good idea for me to announce the good news to my daughter every time I get an unexpected surge in income. </p>

<p>And going back to some of the comments that have been made about priorities: it is NOT a matter of my prioritizing frivolous expenses or personal luxury items over my kids' education. I've come through some really rough years financially and I finally have gotten out of heavy debt, and I really like the feeling that I get when I can pay bills on time and don't have to avoid telephone calls from creditors and simply don't have to worry about money every day. So I'd like to put a little bit away for retirement, and have enough in the bank to weather an emergency. I also want to put my daughter through college, but I really don't "get" the concept of elite (expensive) colleges. I'm sorry, but I am not willing to go back to living on the edge and being overwhelmed with debt and constantly worried about how I will make ends meet in order to send little Ms. Spend-a-Lot to her "dream" school. We live in California; tuition is $6000/annually at the UC's; I can pay that. If my d. can get financial aid to help her attend some elite east coast college, fine... but I just don't get how it should by my obligation to fund it. I guess I'm just too much like my Mr. Miser son -- I just can't quite see the point in making sacrifices so that I can pay $30K annually for a $6K commodity.</p>

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<p>

I don't think you should feel the least bit apologetic about the choices you are making for you and your children. No one really knows what someone else's financial situation is, and none of us can predict the future. It's just responsible of you to be cautious. I think it's different for people with secure employment and life insurance -- then maybe one can take a little more risk with taking on debt for a child's education. But in your situation -- self employed single parent -- you're just smart. JMHO.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
The kid is certifying everything and is responsible for paying everything back with possible fines even if they were not acting purposely. I think that surprised some folks.

[/quote]
I didn't read it that way. I still don't. I read the word "your" as used the statement as to what the kid is responsible for as pertaining to their own, not their parent's, financial info. I don't think "your" means "your parents". I think it means "your own".</p>

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<p>So, do you think that that's the reason both kids and parents have PINs? The parents are certifying their data and the kids are certifying their own?</p>

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<p>Yes, that is exactly how I see it. It would make no sense to require a parental signature except for that.</p>

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<p>I didn't necessarily mean that because you don't disclose financial information, but I do think it's a bit odd how tight lipped Americans are about finances. I'm not trying to point fingers, but it's odd people talk about sex, drugs, and all kinds of intimate things with their kids but not money. It seems that with so much debt in American society it would be one of the most important things...so I'm just curious as to how people do teach kids about their money values or try to.</p>

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<p>You can teach your kids about debt, how to manage their income, how to handle a checkbook, how to save, and various other money concepts, without giving them your tax forms of what you earn, how much the mortgage and insurance is, etc. That information is not necessary to teach them how to manage their own money and other concepts about money. Some of our children (including mine) have even been employed before and are now. As parents, we teach whatever money values we wish to instill in our children and I don't need to show them my bank account in order to do that. You can teach what you can afford and what you can't and if you want X, what to you have to do to get enough money to earn X, and so forth. </p>

<p>Susan</p>

<p>Since you brought up drugs and sex in this context...I also teach about sex and birth control and decisions and so forth and I don't tell my kids the intimate details of my sex life. I also discuss drugs and I don't get into any I may have tried back in college. It is not like these things are big secrets but I have no need to share them in order to teach what needs to be taught.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I also teach about sex and birth control and decisions and so forth and I don't tell my kids the intimate details of my sex life.

[/quote]

An apt analogy, and one that reflects our attitudes/behaviors as well. I feel like it is also important to teach the value of privacy, particularly as we live in a household of 8 (and MANY more, most of the time....<em>lol</em>). ;)</p>

<p>~berurah</p>

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<p>Thanks Alumother, Soozie, Jyber, Calmom, Berurah, Curmudgeon for your insights (Curmudgeon for opening this thread). This makes me feel better. We argue a lot about my son's spending habits...now that we two are alone, we have nothing else to fight about! :) My son is my only and you're right, I ascribe too much to upbringing and too little to his innate instincts or his friends and environment...</p>

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<p>achat~</p>

<p>I can very much attest to the fact that these types of habits/behaviors result from SO much more than upbringing....</p>

<p>As you know, I have six children, and they could not be MORE different from each other. My oldest daughter manages money incredibly well. She spends it wisely, very wisely (except when it comes to ME because she spoils me TERRIBLY. With her very first paycheck EVER in her life, she went and bought me a Tempur-Pedic pillow from Brookstone!). <em>sigh</em> She asks for very, very little. She sale shops ONLY, as I do. If I give her money for something, there is always change returned, and she often refuses money I offer her.</p>

<p>But my second daughter??? Completely different. COMPLETELY. LOVES "stuff." LOVES to spend. Is quite careless with money, despite our having attempted to teach her the same lessons. Hmmmmmmmmmmm.............I just figure it has to be my husband's fault somehow. Can't be mine. Nope, no WAY. <em>lolololololol</em> ;)</p>

<p>I am sorry that your son's spending habits have become a source of conflict between your husband and you. That must be quite stressful.</p>

<p>~berurah</p>

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<p>Thanks, Berurah.. It's isn't that stressful. It's just the give-and-take. We'll get over it..been together 25 years and probably will be together 25 years more.. :-)</p>

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<p>And one more thing.......</p>

<p>Each of us RESPONDS to our upbringing differently.</p>

<p>My dh was raised in a rather poor family with NO extras (though the parents did manage to provide for THEMSELVES quite well, but for the kids, NO braces, NO college help, 5 bucks on each birthday....).</p>

<p>There were six kids in HIS family too. And some of them are extremely tight with money. They think because they did without, their children can too. My husband had the opposite reaction. He WANTED his children to have everything HE didn't, and he works astoundingly hard to give them those things which he considers essentials....braces, college, even birthday parties (he NEVER had one, and the one time in third grade that he decided he really WANTED one and thus took the initiative to invite some kids over--they had three acres--his mother made him promptly call everyone up and UNinvite them <em>sigh</em>). </p>

<p>Okay, I'm rambling, but my point is that even within the same exact context, two people can have vastly different reactions.</p>

<p>~berurah</p>

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<p>I think I've tried it "both" ways, and as D is now a senior, what we've defaulted to is that I do the FAFSA, and I sign. We are selected for verification every year anyway and she does of course file her own tax returns, as well as review and sign the verification forms. </p>

<p>Sophomore year, I tried having her fill out her portion of the FAFSA and sign. That was a disaster - somehow, she inserted the figures for her summer job into the fields for parent's income, and the abridged version is that suddenly I was buried in requests from her school to explain why we were suddenly so destitute, why did parental income go from six figures to single figures! The corrective process was such a nightmare that I resolved I will handle the FAFSA from now on - we divide workloads in our house and I'm simply better at it. </p>

<p>If it were an intelligent choice for me, my household would run a bit more like Berurah's, or Soozie's. But it can't - I have always been the sole wage earner; I support a mortage for our primary residence in our home city as well as the rent on her apartment in a second city, meaning also two separate sets of utility bills; both vehicles, including all insurance and maintenance, and of course any expenses at school not covered by her scholarships or the ten or so hours per week she works. </p>

<p>Therefore - especially considering that I travel some, and the various scenarios of "what if something happens to me" or "what if the plane crashes" are pretty much always on my mind while she is still in school, my D knows absolutely everything about our finances. It's critical that she know my income, savings and investment positions, life insurance details, that our mortgage insurance will pay off the house, what bills are due and when/how they should be paid: if I am taken off the planet tomorrow, she can continue without interruption, at least in the financial sense. </p>

<p>In my case, this information sharing actually benefits us both greatly, as it allows us to better communication about our resources and manage them more efficiently. It helps, too, to have two sets of eyes focused on our income and expenses. </p>

<p>I filed the FAFSA for the last time (on her behalf) this year; next year, as she gets into grad school range she can pick it back up.</p>

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<p>Berurah, thanks again..see, that's why I asked. This makes me feel better!</p>

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<p>
[quote]
If it were an intelligent choice for me, my household would run a bit more like Berurah's, or Soozie's. But it can't - I have always been the sole wage earner

[/quote]
</p>

<p>latetoschool~
You simply amaze me. Wow. You deserve an incredible amount of credit.</p>

<p>~berurah</p>