<p>Apparently, the 27 credit hour core is not dead. Also, despite the fact that students/parents who post here posted during their new student orientations that they were told by counselors that E201 would meet S&H requirements, and despite the fact that the following pdf "planning guide" categorized E201 as meeting S&H requirements, along with M118 meeting "Breadth of Inquiry" within the N&M categor, etc.-- none of these classes can be applied to the still breathing 27 credit hour core. Oh wait, the "star" says see Kelley requirements. Of course, for the incoming class going through registration for Fall classes in June and July, the new bulletin had not been published yet, since it is dated August 3.
<a href="http://ud.iub.edu/docs/Planning%20Docs/fall_2011_bus_tab_sheet_master.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://ud.iub.edu/docs/Planning%20Docs/fall_2011_bus_tab_sheet_master.pdf</a></p>
<p>The "planning guide" and the new Kelley undergraduate bulletin don't seem to compliment each other very well.</p>
<p>What a mess. I’m really surprised at how this (whatever ‘this’ is) is being handled. It seems like the right hand doesn’t know what the left hand is doing. Very uncharacteristic of Kelley.</p>
<p>Do you know what they are trying to accomplish overall?</p>
<p>I think that Kelley wants students to have exposure to world culture. Really, all they need to do was to allow the two WC courses (counted toward A&H or S&H) as part of the 27 credits requirements which, I think, will help most Kelley students to build a sold foundation. Otherwise, it is way too easy since</p>
<p>Ace, if you go by the current Kelley bulletin that was published August 3, 2011 and was linked to above, the econs do not satisfy the S&H requirement for Kelley students. I know your kid(s) were told they would meet S&H, and other Kelley students or Kelley hopefuls posted the same info here, but it is not true per the bulletin, and the bulletin will – or at least should – trump anything that an advisor tells you. The econs count for the 62 general education hours required, but not for the S&H portion of the 27 hour core<a href=“assuming%20you%20choose%20the%20distribution%20option,%20which%20most%20Kelleys%20do”>/u</a>. Also, Kelleys still have to find two N&M classes to take other than finite and calculus. etc, etc. To quote the current bulletin, page 5, “I-Core prerequisite courses and Economics courses may not be used to fulfill the 27-hour Core.” I don’t know how they could state it any simpler than that. In other words, not much has changed – for Kelley students, at least – with the new, much ballyhooed gen ed requirements.</p>
<p>The absolutely most bizarre thing about the “planning guide” (linked to above) that was distributed at freshman orientation is that it makes absolutely no mention of the 27 hour core. That is just unbelievable. The idea for many Kelleys is to get the gen ed requirements out of the way your first two years so you can concentrate on your business major courses your junior and senior year, especially if you have two business majors. If you don’t know about the 27 hour core-- which is a huge part of the 62 credit gen ed requirement – then you can’t knowingly work on fulfilling it. You may get lucky and select some of the classes you need to fulfill it, but that’s no way to start your eight semesters at IU, especially given the cost of attendance.</p>
<p>I can’t figure out how 300-level foreign language classes fit in. They used to be mostly in the A&H category of the distribution option. The distribution option still exists per the new bulletin, which meant in the past that you could use two 300+ level S&H or A&H classes to meet 27 credit core requirements. You used to be able to meet this requirement with foreign language classes; but you won’t find any 300- or 400-level foreign language classes listed in the current A&H class listings or the current World Languages categories. So can 300 and 400 level foreign language classes still be used, and, if so, which ones? I know HISP 315 Spanish in the Business World was ineligible to meet this requirement as was HISP 310 (later replaced by HISP 308).
[World</a> Languages Courses](<a href=“http://gened.iub.edu/courses/worldlanguagescourses.html]World”>http://gened.iub.edu/courses/worldlanguagescourses.html)
[A</a> & H Courses](<a href=“http://gened.iub.edu/courses/art_humanitiescourses.html]A”>http://gened.iub.edu/courses/art_humanitiescourses.html)</p>
<p>The International Dimension is still required per the new bulletin. Not one mention in the new Kelley bulletin of “World Cultures” or “World Languages.”</p>
<p>The new gen ed requirements have been in the works for many years, but somebody forgot to integrate Kelley into the scheme, or at least forgot to tell the students about it.</p>
<p>bthomp, if you could please read my private message I sent you about scholarships that would be much appreciated. Again I thank you in advance for you great knowledge of Kelley and IU. Please send me a PM back! Thanks!</p>
<p>I’ll probably go to walk in advising tomorrow to ask, but it probably won’t do any good since apparently the Kelley advisers have no idea what’s going on.</p>
<p>Please share with all about your findings. Thanks.</p>
<p>bthomp1 and All,</p>
<p>I also e-mailed S2 for him to confirm with his advisor again. The purpose for the 27 core requirement is to make sure that students have some in-depth background in a field or fields outside of business. Because of the added two WLC courses, they may decide to relax the requirement somewhat. The 8/3/2011 bulletin is more or less the same version published for the previous years. I suspect that it was not scrubbed enough to incorporate the latest policy used across the entire IU. </p>
<p>It is odd that quite a few students may finish the I-core pre-requisites by the 3rd semester based upon the new rule. Can they take I-core during the 4th semester? Before it becomes clear, I think that freshmen have to take care of the I-core pre-requisites and the two WLC courses ASAP. If Kelley reverses the rule, then take the remaining 27 courses in the 3rd and 4th semesters. </p>
<p>Nonetheless, I think that the new rule would allow a Kelley student to take on three concentrations in Business: Accounting, Finance, and International Business. I thought, once, that it would have been impossible to do that. How many upper class Kelley students are able to finish the required courses for these three fields in 4 years?</p>
<p>People that triple major in Kelley usually come in with twenty or thirty or even more AP credits or attend an extra semester or two. They come in with lots of classes that count toward the 27 credit hour core (or do summer school or online classes and transfer the credit to IUB), and wind up having to take only the two 300+ level classes and one or two A&H, S&H, or N&M classes, or less than that if you earn AP credit for 200 level science classes, to complete the 27 credit hour core. So they don’t take anywhere near 27 credits at IUB to complete the requirement.</p>
<p>Even without coming in with a bunch of credits, it is not that difficult to do the entire 62 credit gen ed requirement in two years, since a lot of the Icore prerequisites figure into the 62 credit gen ed requirement, especially if you just load up on summer community college classes, get an easy C grade in them, and transfer the credit to IU. The problem arises when you don’t tell students about the 27 credit hour core requirement when they are selecting classes for their first semester at IU. </p>
<p>I think the 27 credit hour core is a good way to help satisfy the idea that you don’t go to an undergraduate university to take business classes alone. IU will not relax the general education component for Kelley students to the point where less than fifty percent of their educational experience is gen ed/liberal arts. It is not a coincidence that 62 gen ed credits plus 62 business credits equals 124. 124 credits is the minimum credits for a Kelley undergraduate degree. So I don’t see them relaxing the 27 credit hour core. </p>
<p>Kelley and the University Division advisors need to do a better job at next summer’s freshmen orientation communicating requirements other than just the new gen ed requirements so that students can actually start working on them.</p>
<p>I got to meet with an adviser today to plan my spring schedule and she said they just don’t do a good job of updating the literature. She assured me that the breadth of inquiry is in effect for my class, despite what the bulletin says. </p>
<p>Most of the people I have met this year have loved there experience thus far at IU, but the advising seems to be a common complaint. The UD kids say their advisers don’t know enough about Kelley and the Kelley kids say their advisers don’t know enough about requirements outside of Kelley. My adviser this summer had me sign up for both CMCL-121 and BUS-X 104. Of course I would not have received credit for both of those. </p>
<p>I totally understand that it is the student’s responsibility to keep track of their degree progress, but if the advisers don’t know what they are talking about half the time, then what is the point of even having them?</p>
<p>Oh, and BTW ace550, CSCI-A110 does not fulfill the N&M because the student has to take a natural science.</p>
<p>Also, the adviser said that next years freshman will not only have new Gened requirements, but a completely new business degree.</p>
<p>It’s really inexcusable the way IU/Kelley/University Division dropped the ball with advising for this incoming class. And they still haven’t resolved all the requirements. It is beyond bush league. </p>
<p>It’s never good form your schedule on the advice of advisors alone. That’s why schools publish their requirements-- everybody EXCEPT Kelley/IU this year. It’s inexcusable not to have reconciled in print the new IU gen ed requirements and Kelley requirements. </p>
<p>HKem, there was no, or very, very little, confusion about what counted for what until this summer. They have an army of advisors in all the departments/schools involved, but I guess all the bureaucrats were afraid to point out the elephant in the room and still are, based on the fact that the available published sources are not not reconcilable with each other.</p>
<p>—Oh, and BTW ace550, CSCI-A110 does not fulfill the N&M because the student has to take a natural science.—</p>
<p>HKem, did the advisor tell you that? If she did, you might want to ask her again about A110 and N&M, as what you posted seems incredibly wrong.</p>
<p>You need two N&M classes to fulfill Kelley’s 27-hour Core, which is still in effect per the August 3, 2011 Kelley Bulletin. Is there any reason CSCI A110 can’t be one of the N&M classes? This course is on the current list of approved N&M classes!!! It should therefore work (as long as you don’t take it the same semester as K201, or after you have taken K201) as counting as one of your Kelley N&M’s. Then, as the second N&M class to meet 27 credit core requirements, take a class from the list below that is designated with an asterisk-- the asterisks designate “Natural Science” courses. That will total two N&M classes that will cover your entire Kelley N&M requirement of six credits. The second N&M class you take will also cover the Natural Sciences requirement for all IU entering freshmen.
[N</a> & M Courses](<a href=“http://gened.iub.edu/courses/natural_mathsciencescourses.html]N”>http://gened.iub.edu/courses/natural_mathsciencescourses.html)</p>
<p>And, of course, Kelley Icore prerequisite M119 will cover the Math Modeling and M118 will cover the Breadth of Inquiry for N&M requirements that reply to all IU entering freshmen this Fall.</p>
<p>You’re right that CSCI- A110 will fulfill the Math Modeling N&M requirement but, as you pointed out, Kelley students already have that requirement fulfilled so it’s a moot point. (Though now that I am in K-201, I wish I would have taken A110). CSCI-A110 does not fulfill the Natural science portion of the N&M requirement, which is what Kelley students need. </p>
<p>I don’t know what to say about the 27-hour core, everyone here seems to think it does not exist for my class. My adviser yesterday refused to acknowledge it the few times I brought up that the new GenEd requirement is not discussed in the new bulletin.</p>
<p>HKem, you are confusing IU gen ed requirements with Kelley’s 27 credit hour core, which is part of Kelley (and Kelley’s alone) gen ed requirement. </p>
<p>It is not a moot point. M118 and M119 will not meet Kelley’s distribution option requirement of the 27-hour Core, where you take a combination of A&H, N&M, and S&H courses that total 27 credits. From the Aug 3 Kelley bulletin:** “I-Core prerequisite courses and Economics courses may not be used to fulfill the 27-hour Core.”<a href=“page%205”>/b</a> You can’t say it any plainer than that, assuming the bulletin is correct. </p>
<p>Therefore, if you are doing the distribution option to fulfill the 27-hour Core, you will need at least two N&M classes other than M118 and M118. CSCI A110 can be used as one of those classes. Kelley does not care if this class is “Natural Science” or “Mathmatical Modeling” or any other N&M class. Then take a “Natural Science” N&M class as the second N&M class to apply to both IU’s gen ed and Kelley’s 27-hour Core.</p>
<p>If you are a direct admit, go to One Start > SIS > Academic Planning > Plan by my Requirements > under “Report Type”, select Academic Advising Report (AAR). This will give you a breakdown of the categories of classes you will need to graduate, if you have declared a major in Kelley. You may also have to have declared the distribution option OR the field specialization option for your requirements to be listed.</p>
<p>You might ask an advisor if you need to declare one of these options to satisfy the 27 credit hour core. Every student prior to this year’s entering freshman class had to declare one of these options and fulfill the requirements, and from info in the current bulletin, that requirement is still in place.</p>
<p>I got to that Academic Advising Report and it laid out the 2011 Kelley degree and there was nothing about a General education requirement. There was the IU Common Ground thing which is the breadth of inquiry. The Kelley section of my report has the following sections:</p>
<p>Kelley School Upper Level GenEd Requirements</p>
<p>Fall 2011 I-Core Prerequisites</p>
<p>Integrative Core</p>
<p>Additional Courses Required for Graduation (e202, Z302, X420)</p>
<p>Finance Major</p>
<p>I would imagine that students who matriculated prior to this summer have a gen ed requirement section on there, but I don’t.</p>
<p>S2 reported that the 27 credits of core requirement no longer applies to Kelley students class of 2015 per his advisor. There are many conflicting signals. I will have to call myself to find out what is going on.</p>
<p>Everyone I have asked in the Kelley advising department says the 27 hour core is absolutely dead. The only thing that disagrees is that bulletin. I think the bulletin is wrong just because I find it hard to believe that all of Kelley does not know something that important.</p>
<p>As a result, they may relax the requirement to allow E201/E202 for S&H and M119 for N&M. It turns out that the requirement could be diluted by two courses (10-3) vs. 9.</p>
<p>Kelley needs to clarify this soon since the Spring courses may be out in three weeks.</p>
<p>I sent an email to an advisor who said the 27 hour core is dead, so I finally believe you guys. ha ha. She didn’t say what replaces it, though. It is really unbelievable. The Kelley bulletin that was published and posted on the website **after ** new student orientation is actually wrong, but apparently it is not a big deal to Kelley. Unbelievable.</p>
<p>I always thought it was a given that students have available to them in writing the courses needed to fulfill degree requirements. I guess Kelley is breaking new ground here. </p>
<p>Ace, the only problem with allowing Icore prerequisites to count in S&H and N&M categories is that it really dilutes the breadth of general education. Students still have to take 62 gen ed credits. I guess they can just max out the easy music, pe, spea, and whatever other easy classes they can find. Students used to have to take all of the 27 hour core strictly from COAS – without counting Icore prerequisites like finite, calculus, and both intro econs – so that students were actually getting a fair amount of exposure to a traditional liberal arts type of education.</p>
<p>In any case, meeting degree requirements now appears to involve complete faith in the advisors. That and actually ignoring traditional sources – like Kelley’s academic bulletin – despite the fact that Kelley puts their incorrect one on their website – that people for decades have used to plan their four year career.</p>
<p>Yeah, Ace, the Spring (and probably Summer, too) schedules should be out in a few weeks. Students need to make their reservations ASAP to see advisors for planning Spring schedules. You can’t just look up the requirements online anymore, so you will have to get them face-to-face and hope the advisor is on the ball that day.</p>
<p>I made the appointment three weeks ago for my meeting yesterday, so if your freshman has not made an appointment yet, he should get on that. They are extremely booked and he will not be able to register for Spring without having another advising meeting. </p>
<p>“Students still have to take 62 gen ed credits. I guess they can just max out the easy music, pe, spea, and whatever other easy classes they can find.”</p>
<p>Only 4 credits of HPER and 4 credits of MUS courses can count for the 124 hour requirement. It’s on the planning sheet at the beginning of the thread. </p>
<p>Also, does that mean 62 credits have to come from outside of Kelley? That would kind of throw a wrench in my double major plans.</p>