Lack of IB credit from colleges frustrates high schools.

Parents Forum
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<p>Soccer, the AP is just more common than IB. That's why you see so many kids with multiple scores of 5. Yet the mean score is only 2.83 -- not even passing. Kids taking IB courses are a small fraction of the millions in AP courses.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/13/education/13cnd-exam.html?_r=1&oref=slogin%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/13/education/13cnd-exam.html?_r=1&oref=slogin&lt;/a>

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Last year, more than 15 percent of the 2.8 million students who graduated from public high schools scored a 3 or above on at least one A.P. exam. In 2002, 11.7 percent of the graduates got a 3 or better on at least one exam, as did 14.7 percent of the 2006 graduates.

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<p>DS2 is taking three or four APs next year in addition to the two SL exams. He'll have three APs already after soph year. That will give him scores for his college apps, because I do believe, contrary to what many schools say, that presenting scores <em>does</em> matter. His APs will include Calc AB, English Comp, three social studies (his area of interest), science and possibly a FL.</p>

<p>We hope this will help reduce the urge to take lots of APs senior year when he has three HLs and another SL.</p>

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<p><cue music.beatles="" "revolution"="" intro.="" camera="" pans="" from="" john's="" face="" to="" archival="" footage="" march="" on="" selma.="" fade="" music.="" cue="" "i="" have="" a="" dream".="" "dream".="" obama="" "yes="" we="" can."="" obama.="" "we="" are="" the="" world".="" ib="" orphans="" holding="" hands,="" swaying.="" voiceover="" "fight="" discrimination".="" black.=""></cue></p>

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<p>Cute, Curmudgeon.</p>

<p>But you have to have been there to understand.</p>

<p>I had one kid in an IB program and another in a regular high school that placed heavy emphasis on APs.</p>

<p>The amount of effort (and, dare I say, the amount of learning) involved in taking six AP courses/tests of your choice and getting decent scores is so much less than the amount of effort involved in getting an IB diploma (which involves, among other things, taking six IB tests and getting decent scores) that it is absurd to compare them. It's not like comparing apples and oranges. It's like comparing buying an apple at a supermarket to making an apple pie that wins a prize at the state fair. There is just so much more to IB, as a comprehensive program, than there is to AP, as a collection of separate courses. And the level of rigor of IB SL is not much different from that of most APs, while the level of rigor of IB HL is higher than that of most, if not all, of the courses offered by AP. (The only APs I have ever seen that even come close to the level of intensity of IB HL English or History are the AP foreign languages.) </p>

<p>Yet colleges are more hospitable to the supermarket apple. To anyone who has seen students go through the IB program, this makes no sense at all.</p>

<p>Another way to judge the value of IB: Ask some college students who went through the IB diploma program whether they regretted it while they were doing it and whether they regret it now. Some will say that they often regretted it during high school because of the extraordinary demands it made on their time. But once they're in college, they see the value in their IB preparation.</p>

<p>Is there anyone here on CC who is now in college who regrets having done the IB diploma program in high school?</p>

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<p>Marain, to those who have seen the dual-credit courses at my D's high school that also receive no college "love" from her LAC (a year of credit----poof!), you'd know that there are inequities everywhere. The "learning" will do them well in college. My D doesn't regret her choice to take the toughest courses. Do your kids?</p>

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<p>No regrets. </p>

<p>You're right about dual credit. It gets even less love than IB does, and I have never understood why.</p>

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<p>I have to agree with Marian. My kid also did IB (and AP). The IB was on a totally different plane than AP-- much, much more rigorous, in-depth, and the exams (especially the higher level exams) made AP look like kindergarten. </p>

<p>She doesn't regret doing IB at all, though at the time, it was a tremendous amount of work. I don't think anyone who did IB from her class regretted it. Once they got to college, they realized the value of it. They all went to various types of schools, where some accepted IB credit and others didn't, but all were incredibly well-prepared. In the end, her IB group was fairly small (early on, some just dropped out of the program), but that group has done really well in college. They may be the types who would have done well, regardless, but I think they all feel that completing that program was incredibly worthwhile, whether they got course credit for the exams or not.</p>

<p>The IB program at her high school, though, started in 10th grade as I remember.</p>

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<p>
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Yet colleges are more hospitable to the supermarket apple. To anyone who has seen students go through the IB program, this makes no sense at all.

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<p>Unfortunately, despite all the hoopla and mystique, the IB suffers from the same problems as the AP program: lack of uniformity and standards in the quality of the education. While it is undeniable that the programs are offered at extremely competitive schools, it has also been "sold" at schools that are so underperforming that they are targeted for closure. There are also good reasons why many highy selective high schools have abandoned the AP juggernaut and have not jumped on the IB bandwagon. Because of geographical differences, it is impossible to draw overall conclusions about the quality of the programs. One only needs to remember that the IB program was not started to provide a superior education but provide a uniform program of education from a mobile and international population, and was often viewed as ... remedial in nature. </p>

<p>The elements of the so-called rigor of the program and difficulty of the exams are as relevant as they are for the AP, and this means ... not very much at all. Is teaching to the test less prevalent in the IB world? </p>

<p>Even if the IB were superior to the AP, that would still not make the program the panacea some like to represent as a fait accompli. The greatest danger to the next generation is to see the IB continue the process of abdication of *our *education system to seek a *better *high school curriculum to minimize the impact of transition to college life.</p>

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<p>My son certainly complains about the workload in IB, but I don't think he regrets it, even now. My only mild regret is that I think he might have had better grades if he had stayed at his home high school and taken AP. But he's benefitted in so many other ways, that that thought is outweighed.</p>

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<p>Doesn't IB at least attempt to get uniform grading standards among schools offering the program? Not just on the final exams, but throughout the year?</p>

<p>For a while, I was on the parent committee for the IB program at my kids' school. I met with IB representatives, and one of the other parents in the group actually visited the headquarters in Geneva. But then all of the kids of parents who were on the committee declined to join the program (see earlier post), so my education in IBquitude got cut off.</p>

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<p>
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One only needs to remember that the IB program was not started to provide a superior education but provide a uniform program of education from a mobile and international population, and was often viewed as ... remedial in nature.

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<p>Could you provide support for this assertion (ie "remedial in nature")? I agree that the program was initially formed, in part, to provide a uniform program of education that was recognized internationally.</p>

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The International Baccalaureate was founded in Geneva, Switzerland in 1968 as a non-profit educational foundation. Its original purpose was to facilitate the international mobility of students preparing for university by providing schools with a curriculum and diploma recognized by universities around the world. Since then its mission has expanded, and it now seeks to make an IB education available to students of all ages.

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IB</a> strategic plan</p>

<p>To be honest, your comment sounds like a justification that private high schools (most of whom do not use IB) might employ to tell to their students, so their precious students don't get the impression that the public high schools might be offering more in the way of academic rigor. No one paying a private high school tuition wants to think that the free public high school across the street might, in fact, be providing more. Yikes.</p>

<p>While I agree that the excellence of the IB program is not uniform across the country, that would be true of anything offered at any school. Schools and teachers are not trained the same, and the education offered (AP, IB, regular) is not uniform and never has been -- anywhere. So, yes, I do think one needs to look at what his or her school offers within the IB program and how broad the offerings are, how the teachers are trained, etc.</p>

<p>That said, the few public schools in our area that have offered IB, are and have always been, top-notch. These are the schools where people fight to get their kids enrolled (and actually move residences so as to be in the right district), so -- at least in our experience-- IB was not offered to somehow bolster the school or its reputation. </p>

<p>As far as "teaching to the test," no-- in our experience, that has not been the case with IB (as has been with AP). As I remember, the exams (especially higher level IB exams) are not the type of exams where one can "teach to the test."</p>

<p>Finally, I do think what makes a strong IB program really worthwhile, is the difference in the way a student is taught and learns-- from the typical way students tend to be taught (and to learn) in the U.S. Also, the level of in-depth writing and research that was involved, at least in the program in which my kid was enrolled, was incredible and differed greatly from anything her peers in most other schools were doing (including some stellar private schools). </p>

<p>There are also some IB World Schools that are very impressive. The students who are accepted into those and who graduate (I've met a few) are truly stellar students and well-rounded, interesting people. Of course, they probably were before they went to these schools . . . </p>

<p>Again, I can believe that the IB programs vary across the country, but the one with which I am most familiar (and from which my daughter received her diploma) was rigorous and absolutely worthwhile. AP courses, while certainly more advanced than regular courses, were not anywhere at the level of IB-- on any level.</p>

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<p>
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To be honest, your comment sounds like a justification that private high schools (most of whom do not use IB) might employ to tell to their students, so their precious students don't get the impression that the public high schools might be offering more in the way of academic rigor.

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<p>Would you care to rephrase that "precious students" commentary? </p>

<p>As far as my justification for private high schools, allow me to ask you how many IB schools outside the United States are NOT private? And, out of curiosity, how large do you think the international pool of schools from 1968 until the recent explosion in the United States was? 500 schools? 30,000 students? </p>

<p>As far as the remedial nature of the program, pick a country where the IB program has "some" history and check the schools. Example? Pick Belgium -a country that leaves the United States in the dust in international testing. The IB program is only offered at "international" private schools known to allow students to "get back on track" after failing in the "public" system. A public system that, by the way, comprises both private (mostly catholic) and government schools.</p>

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<p>Xiggi said:</p>

<p>
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Is teaching to the test less prevalent in the IB world? </p>

<p>Even if the IB were superior to the AP, that would still not make the program the panacea some like to represent as a fait accompli.

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<p>I don't think teaching to the test is less prevalent in the IB world than the AP world. However, I don't object to teaching to the test if it's a good test. If the test adequately reflects what the students should know or be able to do, teaching to the test is not evil, in my opinion.</p>

<p>I also don't think that IB is a panacea. In fact, I think it is extremely ill-suited for some types of students. </p>

<p>I have mentioned that one of my kids did IB and the other didn't. For the one who didn't, choosing NOT to do IB was definitely the right choice for him. His academic interests were too specialized for IB. He took seven full-year computer science or technical education courses in high school and served as a teacher's aide for one of those courses during class time during his senior year. It would be unthinkable for an IB student to be able to create a program that would allow such extensive specialization. Also, he preferred to spend much of his out-of-school time on paying jobs rather than typical extracurricular activities. He would have resented the amount of out-of-school time he would have had to spend on CAS and the Extended Essay. For him, IB would have been a terrible choice. But for his sister, it was great.</p>

<p>I have never heard that IB is "remedial." In fact, the IB Web site says that the diploma program (unlike the programs for younger students) is specifically intended for students who are "university" bound -- where "university," as far as I can tell, is the international word for what we Americans would refer to as "at least moderately selective four-year colleges." The students I know who have chosen IB are kids who would be in the top 10 percent of their high school classes if they were in an ordinary high school program. I have seen nothing about the program that suggests a "remedial" nature, but of course I only know about IB in the United States; matters may be different in Europe.</p>

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<p>This is one of the pluses I see for AP. More students are able to participate because they don't have to go "whole hog" into a program, but can choose menu items a la carte.</p>

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<p>
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Would you care to rephrase that "precious students" commentary?

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<p>No, not really.</p>

<p>I don't know anything about the schools in Belgium, nor would I pretend to know about them. Suffice to say, however, that the IB programs with which I am familiar (and not just in my area) have been truly stellar. While these IB programs do vary somewhat, specifically in terms of how broad their offerings are among the schools, suffice to say that they are stellar and academically rigorous programs, offered at schools that were already outstanding.</p>

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<p>I think she meant precious in a nice way, not a sarcastic way...</p>

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<p>ellemenope, your comment about specialization and the a la carte nature of AP is exactly why I think IB should always be a choice, not the one-and-only program offered.</p>

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<p>
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have never heard that IB is "remedial." . . . I have seen nothing about the program that suggests a "remedial" nature, but of course I only know about IB in the United States; matters may be different in Europe.

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<p>I have never heard nor read this, either. That's why I asked for support for that assertion (other than opinion).</p>

<p>Again, I do not believe that one can "teach to the test" with IB, like with AP. The tests don't seem to be formulated to work very successfully with that method of teaching. </p>

<p>I agree IB is not for everybody, for many different reasons. That does not discount the fact that a strong IB program is worthwhile and can provide excellent preparation for university, most especially for an academically rigorous university experience.</p>

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<p>I also have one student who is in an IB program and one who is not. For one, it is a fabulous fit -- for the other, it would have been a disaster. Not because he doesn't like all the subject areas, but because, he, like Marian's son, had a deep, specific interest that could not be accommodated in an IB program. The ability to take AP exams as a sophomore in his areas of interest enabled him to get on with the real learning he was seeking.</p>

<p>Vive la difference!</p>

<p>The only possible context I can think of for "remedial" is that IB was developed, in part, for the chiildren of diplomats who were posted from one country to the next, and the IB curriculum offered an opportunity to standardize the education these kids received as they traveled around the world. And considering my IB student's 9th grade pre-IB English class was MUCH tougher than his older brother's AP Lang and Comp, IB as "remedial," in the context of his school's program, is truly laughable.</p>

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<p>For what it's worth as a contribution to this thread: I asked the IB people I met to give me a short account of their history in the U.S., and a big part of the story was Catholic schools in non-traditional suburban areas in California. Their clientele wanted academic rigor, they didn't have any traditions, they didn't have any profile with colleges, and they were hungry for a hook that would distinguish them from more established private schools and from the public schools. It proved popular with parents and students, and suburban public schools -- again, emphasis on newer ones -- began to follow suit.</p>

<p>IB is complicated and expensive to adopt. Although in theory it is flexible enough to accommodate a wide range of student interests, in practice only a handful of schools has made enough of an investment in it to permit students to take real advantage of its curricular flexibility. High schools that are already doing a good job educating their students, and that have the respect of the parents and college admissions staff they care about, are unlikely to make the investment and undergo the disruption to go all-IB. I was very impressed by the IB curriculum and philosophy, but it was not at all clearly superior to the curriculum and pedagogical approach offered by hundreds of great secondary schools across the country. It will be a long time before Exeter, or Brearley, or Harvard-Westlake, or Scarsdale High, or Lower Merion (etc.) drinks the IB Kool-Aid. (Actually, Lower Merion has a small IB program, which it uses to attract more students to its less popular high school.)</p>