Lack of IB credit from colleges frustrates high schools.

Parents Forum
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Would you care to rephrase that "precious students" commentary? </p>

<p>As far as my justification for private high schools, allow me to ask you how many IB schools outside the United States are NOT private?

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<p>"No, not really"</p>

<p>JB/J, since I am not really surprised of your decision to maintain the utterly caustic "precious" commentary, I also note you've decided to ignore the private school --and ultra elitist-- essence of the original Alec Peterson's programs. </p>

<p>Segregation and elitism within a publicly funded system ... isn't that the wonderful utopia for the secular and liberal american system of education! That is, indeed, so much better than the private system your oblique comment attempted to denigrate. And, yes, that is a sarcastic comment.</p>

42

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IB is complicated and expensive to adopt. Although in theory it is flexible enough to accommodate a wide range of student interests, in practice only a handful of schools has made enough of an investment in it to permit students to take real advantage of its curricular flexibility.

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<p>JHS makes an important point here.</p>

<p>IB's supposed flexibility is more at the level of the school rather than the individual student.</p>

<p>Schools that adopt IB have to design their IB curricula in such a way that their students will satisfy all state and local requirements for high school graduation as well as satisfying all the requirements of the IB program. This puts considerable constraints on the curriculum. Also, most IB schools do not have the resources to offer students more than a few of the many options offered by the worldwide IB program.</p>

<p>The IB program my daughter attended was a large one, with slightly more than 100 diploma candidates per year, in a high school with more than 400 total graduates per year. Nevertheless, there were substantial restrictions on students' course choices within the IB program. Everyone in the IB program had to take IB HL English and IB HL History (Europe) as two of their diploma subjects for reasons that had to do with making the IB requirements compatible with the state graduation requirements. And in the other subject areas, not all options offered by the worldwide IB program were available. For example, Biology could only be taken as an HL subject, not SL, and Chemistry could only be taken SL, not HL. There simply weren't the resources to offer both sciences at both levels. There were similar limitations in other subject areas as well.</p>

<p>Smaller IB programs may have even more constraints. For example, I have heard of small IB programs where everyone must take the same IB science or where only two or three sixth subject (the elective within the IB program) options are available.</p>

43

<p>
[quote]
Segregation and elitism within a publicly funded system ... isn't that the wonderful utopia for the secular and liberal american system of education!

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</p>

<p>The IB Programs with which I am familiar (in public school systems) were/are open to any student who attends the school. IB cost was not an issue for our local high school students, as the school paid for the cost of exams, etc. </p>

<p>Our own school system receives significant public funding and is, fortunately, not stingy with resources. I will also add that this was a large and culturally, ethnically, racially, economically diverse school. The IB program itself was well-represented by that student diversity (on all levels).</p>

<p>As I stated before, IB Programs do vary among schools and regions, both in what they offer (how broad the offerings are), in resources available (as both Marion and JHS illuminate), and in how well the program is run, including proper teacher training. Once again, of course, all schools vary in these areas-- whether they have IB or not.</p>

<p>Perhaps in your experience, IB was a "segregated" and "elitist" option/program. In our (my daughter's) experience, this was simply not the case.</p>

<p>You seem to have an aversion to well-funded and well-run public schools, or an aversion to believe that such a thing exists. Well, I'm here to tell you-- they actually do in some places.</p>

<p>Regardless, I certainly don't think IB is for everyone. I do think that for those who are fortunate enough to successfully go through and complete an excellent program-- whether they get college credit for it or not-- they will be academically well-prepared for any university setting.</p>

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<p>OK! </p>

<p>Learning</a> and Understanding: Improving Advanced Study of Mathematics and Science in U.S. High Schools</p>

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Unequal Access</p>

<p>There is an enduring belief that advanced study confers advantages to students in college; thus, ever-increasing numbers enroll in AP courses and IB programs. However, access to advanced study is uneven. Some high schools offer multiple sections in many AP subjects; others provide none.</p>

<p>These differences are associated with school size and location, and the availability of AP and IB in a school decreases as the percentage of minority or low-income students increases, especially in mathematics and science. Even where available, students from underrepresented and low-income groups take advanced courses less frequently than students from other groups.</p>

<p>Effective strategies for improving student participation in advanced study include eliminating low-level courses with reduced academic expectations, enhancing professional development for teachers, hiring qualified teachers for rural and inner-city schools, providing information to parents about longterm benefits of participating in such programs, and increasing student access to skilled counselors and mentors.

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45

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You seem to have an aversion to well-funded and well-run public schools, or an aversion to believe that such a thing exists. Well, I'm here to tell you-- they actually do in some places.

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<p>Would you kindly point to examples of my "aversion" to well-funded and well-run public schools?</p>

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<p>No one disputes the fact that there are great schools (and IB programs) out there, and some that are not so great. That "students from underrepresented and low-income groups take advanced courses less frequently than students from other groups" comes as no surprise, either. They don't typically attend private schools, either; some don't even get to go to college (gasp!). They don't typically do well on the SAT, either. This is not breaking news.</p>

<p>I don't dispute that plenty of low-income and minority students get the shaft in education in this country. This touches on much broader issues, however. They have nothing to do with your assertion that IB is "remedial," nor related to how good/valuable the programs are.</p>

<p>For the rest of it (ie, segregation and elitism in the form of IB), see my post above.</p>

47

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Would you kindly point to examples of my "aversion" to well-funded and well-run public schools?

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<p>Let me amend that to read "an aversion to well-funded and well-run public schools that are not schools within schools," following-up on your earlier, admittedly sarcastic, "segregated" and "elitist" comment below:</p>

<p>
[quote]
Segregation and elitism within a publicly funded system ... isn't that the wonderful utopia for the secular and liberal american system of education!

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Again, some public schools are actually well-funded and well-run-- for all who choose to attend, where programs and advanced study are open to all, and where cost is not an issue for any individual student or his/her family.</p>

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They have nothing to do with your assertion that IB is "remedial," or how good the programs are.

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<p>Please read my assertion in its correct context. I wrote, "One only needs to remember that the IB program was not started to provide a superior education but provide a uniform program of education for a mobile and international population, and was often viewed as ... remedial in nature." </p>

<p>I believe I was pretty clear that my commentary related to the programs as they were originally --and still are-- offered in Europe. I added, "The IB program is only offered at "international" private schools known to allow students to "get back on track" after failing in the "public" system."</p>

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<p>Your earlier post (#44) was about uneven "access to advanced study," often found in U.S. schools, which no one disputes. I certainly don't.</p>

<p>Again, you have never given any real factual support to the fact that IB "was often viewed as . . . remedial in nature." </p>

<p>I believe this particular thread was referring to IB programs in U.S. high schools. I commented about some IB World Schools; another poster commented on IB's initial design-- to better accommodate children of international parents, or parents who move around frequently, and internationally-- but again-- if you have it, could you point me somewhere that shows that IB, as originally designed, was "often viewed as remedial in nature?" </p>

<p>Support for this particular assertion is all I was/am asking, really.</p>

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<p>JB/J, short of pointing you to local research and sources to local public knowledge of the role played by private schools in Western Europe in avoiding failure and what is know as "redoublement," you'd have to poll people who have spent time in a foreign country. </p>

<p>However, since I know that would not satisfy your thirst for proof, here is a simple excerpt from a scholarly research available in French. I believe you'll be able to understand the basic context. I cannot post a link because it's a JSTOR document.</p>

<p>Public ou priv</p>

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<p>IB kept our S engaged in HS. A lot of work and other EC's keep him and his mother going all the time. </p>

<p>His scores in the AP and IB tests would have gotten him as a midlevel sophomore at our state's engineering school. I don't think he would have graduated any sooner at a state school because of class scheduling. Whereas at CMU he got one class waived and higher level calculus. </p>

<p>He's a thinker and the IB program encourage a different type of exploration. Not right for everyone.</p>

<p>There is some commonality in IB. There is another intern in Bangalore who is German, but had HS in Bangalore. Same program, same course work, same tests. Different backgrounds.</p>

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<p>All I can say is that if the IB curriculum is "remedial," God help the students taking the typical U.S. high school curriculum, including AP.</p>

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<p>Hunt, all I can say is that reading critically might help understand my comments about the "remedial" nature of the program in elitist private schools outside the United States. </p>

<p>Knowledge based on one mile wide and one inch deep does have limitations.</p>

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<p>The only real advice or suggestion for possible future IB students, is to check into what college/university you might be interested in. Each higher education institution is different. Of the 7 schools that my son applied to, 3 give full credit for IB classes successfully tested out on. 1 allowed it to count for prerequisites but didn't give actual credit. This does save money on taking classes as a prerequisite to another class. The other 3 didn't give credit for any IB tests. FWIW; these same 3 schools didn't give credit for any AP classes either. Of the 3 that did give credit, 2 of them offered a lot. I personally know of 2 students who went to our STATE U in the last 2 years. Both of them had almost their entire freshman year credited. Many, like my daughter who didn't do as well on their HL tests and such, still got 10-15 credits.</p>

<p>But as mentioned earlier, IB is a lot more than getting credit. After 4 years in IB, my daughter was able to go to college and jump right in with her classes. There were many classmates who didn't have the IB background who struggled trying to manage their study time, home work, test prep, etc... IB prepared my daughter for college in a very positive way. She has said numerous times that she was so glad that she did IB in high school.</p>

<p>Also, fwiw, I have reviewed many college applications; especially the more prestigious schools; that asked 3 very basic questions in their application. 1) Was the IB program or AP classes offered at your high school? Y/N. 2) If available, were you in the IB program or take the AP classes? Y/N. 3) If not, WHY? </p>

<p>The IB program is well worth it. If they don't give out college credit for it, so what. That isn't what is important. The IB program makes them a better student and a better person. It's a "Whole Person" concept program. It gets them involved academically as well as with extra curriculum, volunteer time, and other social programs. It teaches them how to manage their time and to handle stress. By all means the IB program should be respected among colleges and universities with the same respect that AP classes give. If a school gives credit for AP, they should give credit for IB. If they don't give credit for AP, then not giving credit for IB is OK. </p>

<p>Either way, I don't think either of my kids would have changed their decision on being in the IB program. They realize that they are better prepared for college than the majority of their peers. That is why there is such a low percentage of high school graduates who attend college/universities and an even lower percentage who graduate. Both kids agree that this is much more important than the 1 or 2 semesters of classes that they are given credit for.</p>

<p>Also, FWIW, while time consuming, many IB students are still active in many sports and extra curriculum activities. My son played varsity sports in Football and Soccer for all 4 years that he has been in the IB program. He is graduating this year. His gpa and class ranking couldn't be any better than it is. Of the 7 interested schools, all obviously wanted him academically, but 3 were also very interested with him for athletics. There is no doubt in my mind that if not for the IB program, my son probably would have become complacent and bored with normal classes. AP classes are nice, but they are individual. They don't challenge you all day long as a student. The IB program is a complete challenging program. Without IB, my son probably wouldn't have had the gpa and class ranking that he currently does. He probably wouldn't have been offered as many scholarships and acceptances that he was. He future probably wouldn't have had as many options as it does.</p>

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<p>This may be a little off the IB topic, but I have a strong need to respond to the description given of "international schools". There is a wide consortium across the world of the international schools xiggi mentioned. I have worked and my children have attended such schools. Some are below par, however the majority are excellent. They are accredited usually by the same UK or US accrediting bodies that oversee private schools in those countries. For example, WASC - Western Association of Schools and Colleges, there are 6 such regional associations in the US that accredit private schools and colleges. These schools are in no way designed to accept students who have failed in their home country's public school system. They have an entirely different purpose, and in fact most are very clear that an education at an international school makes it more difficult to re-integrate into public school unless your home country is the one the international school is based on.
When we lived and taught overseas, the caliber of education at the international school was head and shoulders above what was available to us in the US in our location - in order to come close, we would have had to attend a private school in the US (which we couldn't afford). When we re-enrolled our children in US public school after attending International School, the schools here recommended they both skip a grade ahead - due to the educational preparation.</p>

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<p>My oldest attended a private prep that didn't have AP or IB courses. Very rigorous IMO, but much narrower and deeper than AP.
While she wasn't looking to place out of classes, she did feel that at her very rigorous college she was at a disadvantage by not having the prior experience of the massive amounts of material that an AP class covers.</p>

<p>The description of her highschool however, was enough to get her and many other kids into very rigorous and competitive schools. ( and to thank their teachers for preparing them so well)</p>

<p>Few attended schools where advanced standing was available, although one friend did transfer to a seattle public school to avail himself of running start/community college credit and entered University of Chicago as a junior when he was 18.</p>

<p>My nieces who were enrolled in the IB program in a different district, attended the same "little" ivy college. They were miffed they didn't get advanced credit, but they also knew ( or their parents did) ahead of time, that , that was one of the difference between the AP & IB programs.</p>

<p>The difference is also why we opted to have our youngest attend a school with AP classes rather than IB classes. While I liked, and D liked the high school that offered IB, it didn't start until junior year, it was billed as so time consuming that students couldn't work/participate in sports & while I have since learned it isn't actually the case, we were told at the time, that you had to be enrolled in the entire IB program. Something that for D who has learning disabilities and when entering high school was below grade level in math- didn't seem to be a possilbilty.
I liked that she was able to take honors in the area she was capable in 9th grade, to begin taking AP courses in 10th & to continue to take two AP courses as a senior.
I wish she didn't have to take the test however- it is expensive, her disability impacts her performance on lengthy tests and she won't be using the score, even if she did well to place out of a class.</p>

<p>We do know students who have gotten advanced standing from running start/ AP tests at local public universities. But I am more concerned with how well she is prepared & how much she gets out of her studies, than with how fast she gets through it.</p>

<p>( while I was going to say that I agreed with Christcorp in that it is about preparation for college- I also wanted to say that both Ds honor and even non honor courses depending on subject were very rigorous- the chem class she had as a junior, wasn't AP, but she couldn't have worked harder, same with her marine biology class in 10th grade. Older D also had very challenging courses & in a classroom of 15, not much room to hide- Much depends on the instructor- not necessarily what the course is called)</p>

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<p>My observation is that the IB is not always done well in public schools. The IB is done best when the school follows the primary and middle school curriculum laid out by the IB Organization rather than just focusing on the high school years. Most public schools systems don't have the money, the will, or the understanding of the IB program to do that. </p>

<p>My son went to a private IB international school in DC. We sent him there in kindergarten not knowing, or caring, about college credits. He was sent because, although we had the advantage of one of the best public educational systems in the country in Fairfax County VA, there were things that the school could, and did offer him, that the county schools couldn't and didn't. </p>

<p>We got exactly what we wanted, sometimes more then we wanted in the "international" area from his classmates whose parents represented their governments some of whom didn't always agree with our government. Our son emerged from the school with a sense of internationalism, and an understanding of grayness in the world, that not many 17 year old Americans have. </p>

<p>The college credit thing was never important. He entered USC with 24 credits. We did not take advantage of them. We wanted our son to spend a full four years in college; something he needed. It's the IB program that's important, not the advanced credits that it can offer. It is a way of learning and thinking.</p>

<p>A reporter from his former school's newspaper recently interviewed him.
He said that: "The most important thing that I got from WIS, which I think is the best thing about the school, is the ability to think critically. So many people in the world lack the skills it takes to look at something and analyze it, whether it is a newspaper, a political rally or a Brittany Spears song. At WIS the skill is emphasized in every class you take."</p>

<p>He did say that one of the downsides of his education, which was k-12 in the same school, was that: "It wasn't until I went to USC that I realized that most people aren't interested in that cool documentary about a bus hostage standoff in Brazil."</p>

<p>It cost a significant amount of money to educate him the way we did, but I believed that primary/secondary education was more important in determining what kind of adult your child was going to be than college. We got what we wanted.</p>

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<p>Lack of IB credit from US colleges does bother me and seems unfair compared to credit from AP. For my D it will be difficult to take AP exams since she would have to self-study them and find the venues to take the tests herself in UK as her IB school does not offer any AP classes. As of now, she is thinking of taking AP Psychology only because she is really interested in the subject, but Psychology is not available in her IB program (IB program is very flexible on paper but in reality it is only as wide as each school's offerings). She may also do one British A-level (in Russian) - again, because she is interested in it (but decided to do Spanish in IB). She may or may not get credit for it in US, but it's not her main concern. I'm not going to push her into taking AP tests on top on IB workload, as long as she knows she may not get credit for IB. But I do think it is unfair to equate 7 on IB with 5 on AP, when it is extraordinarily hard to get a 7 on IB exams. I think SL grades should be considered as well as HL, and the range should be extended to 5, 6 or 7 (5 being equivalent to 4 on AP tests). </p>

<p>By the way, I noticed many referred to SL courses being 1 year long. In my D's school, all courses, SL and HL are taught over two years. I thought that's how all schools do it, but apparently not. Perhaps it is open to interpretation, or maybe it's specific to the US?</p>

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<p>Excellent perspective emerald. My son/daughter's high school had both AP and the IB program. I have a lot of respect for AP classes. However, they are designed to be specific. Specific classes. While it is possible to take all AP classes, it wasn't really designed that way. For us, we didn't care whether or not the college/university gave credit or not. The purpose of college isn't to get credits and a diploma. That might be the result of college, but not our purpose. For us, college is a place to learn. Learn at a higher level. Learn more analytically. Grow socially. Learn independence. And so on. </p>

<p>As I said, I respect AP classes. But a challenging class is not what we were looking for. We were looking for a different attitude, different way of thinking, and different way of life. With the exception of 2 electives, my son and daughter were ALWAYS in class with other IB students. They didn't have to deal with a generic english class that was made up of a mix of kids. Some not wanting to be there. Some who did. Some advanced. Some substandard. Some good teachers. Some that suck. etc...</p>

<p>The IB program have teachers that are specially trained to teach those classes. The entire program is IB. All the classes; except for 2 electives; are IB. Extended essay and CAS hours involved the students in and out of the classroom. It is the WHOLE student concept. That is what we wanted. Granted, there are only approximately 480 schools in the USA that have the IB program. If it's not available, it's not an issue. If it is, and your kid has the desire, it is excellent. It is better than AP classes. Not that the classes are better, but that the PROGRAM is better. Remember, IB is NOT about classes. It's about an ENTIRE EDUCATION. </p>

<p>Even though they don't say it, I will. If your student isn't the type that usually maintains a 3.75 type of GPA and probably was going to take 3-4 AP classes at a time, then they shouldn't do the IB program. The IB program at our high school starts in 9th grade. Actual IB is 11th and 12th. My daughter and Son were both straight "A" 4.0 gpa students through the 8th grade. My daughter graduated the IB program a 3.75 gpa student and received 15 credits in college for her IB tests. She also did choir, Club Soccer, Dating, etc... My son is graduating in May. He has a 4.0 gpa class rank of 1. Varsity football and soccer. Dating, movies, camping, etc... It is true however, that if you are a normal 3.0 gpa student, you can do well in the IB program, but you will be busy after school 4-5 hours a night and some weekends. I still believe that the IB program is excellent and for a well rounded education, much better than AP classes. If you excel in math, than an AP math class is great. Same with any AP topic. IB doesn't work like that. IB isn't about "Advanced Classes". It's about an advanced education. In and out of the classroom.</p>

<p>Note: I am not trying to make this an IB vs AP thread. There's enough of those. This thread is about IB classes not being given college credit WITH SOME COLLEGES. (MANY DO GIVE CREDIT). My point is that you shouldn't be thinking about your kid getting into the IB program because of the college credits he/she will/won't get. If that's all you care about, then most definitely take AP classes in what you excel in. Get your 3,6,9,12,15 credits. If you wan't to be more prepared for college as a whole; not just academically; as well as thinking from a totally different perspective than a traditional student is taught to; and you are naturally a good student academically; then the IB program may be for you. If you are week in some academic areas, you will have a hard time and have very little free time. I know this perception may be disagreed on by some people, but I see regular classes as being the AVERAGE education. I see IB as being an ADVANCED education. I see AP classes as in the Middle. An AVERAGE education with a couple of ADVANCED classes. Again, can't emphasize the point enough. IB is NOT about individual classes. It's about a total education.</p>

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<p>Christcorp: Excellent posts (both of them). The IB program in our area also starts in 9th grade, too, though we do have some elementary and middle schools that follow the IB program as well, where kids can continue with it through high school.</p>

<p>I agree with your assessment, though. </p>

<p>tsdad: I'm familiar with some of these schools; the one your son attended in DC must have been very rewarding.</p>