Lack of IB credit from colleges frustrates high schools.

Parents Forum
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I don't know how you could come to that unsupported and unfair generalization.

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<p>JB, clicking on the link I provided in my post number 44 might have provided you some of the answers. You do not to taking MY generalizations, but I think that the "Committee on Programs for Advanced Study of Mathematics and Science in American High Schools" might have the credentials to offer a supported ... opinion.</p>

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Pages 8 through 10 of report</p>

<p>Principled conceptual knowledge
Although the AP and IB programs espouse an emphasis on concepts and key ideas, this intention is largely unrealized in the sciences. Excessive breadth of coverage (especially in 1-year science programs) and insufficient emphasis on key concepts in final assessments contribute significantly to the problem in all science fields. Although emphasis on learning concepts and key ideas is more evident in mathematics, further improvement is needed, particularly in the assessments, which frequently focus on procedural knowledge at the expense of conceptual understanding. </p>

<p>Curriculum
Students can study topics in depth and develop conceptual understanding only if curricula do not present excessive numbers of topics. Currently, AP and IB programs are inconsistent with this precept. In their written materials the College Board and the IBO acknowledge the importance of depth and focus, but the breadth of topics covered in their curriculum guides and assessments conveys a different message. Additionally, the College Board models AP course outlines on typical college introductory courses, rather than on the best college courses or educational practices based on research on learning and pedagogy. Since college-level courses vary substantially in content and pedagogy, this approach limits the potential quality of AP courses.</p>

<p>Instruction
Individual teachers have substantial leeway in implementing AP or IB courses. Therefore, the nature and quality of instruction vary considerably from classroom to classroom. AP and IB programs depart from the model of instruction outlined above by not providing adequate guidance concerning excellent teaching practices in advanced study.</p>

<p>Assessment
The central principle for designing assessments that foster deep conceptual understanding is that they must be aligned with learning goals and with curriculum and instruction derived from those goals. Because AP and IB assessments exert a powerful influence on curriculum and instruction, it is especially important to ensure that they are designed to foster deep conceptual understanding.</p>

<p>A striking inadequacy of the AP and IB programs is the lack of detailed research about what their examinations actually measure, including the kinds of thinking that the examinations elicit. This concern touches on the tests’ validity and the appropriateness of the inferences drawn from test scores. For both the AP and IB programs, certain kinds of validity research are lacking, including attention to the broader social consequences (or consequential validity) of their assessments.</p>

<p>Because high-stakes assessments strongly influence instruction, it is imperative to understand the connections between assessment and instruction in both programs. If instruction is to enhance understanding, assessments should not be predictable from year to year, nor should their content or form be capricious. Assessments in some AP and IB courses are relatively predictable.</p>

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<p>"...my observation is that the level of learning in the IB program today, while considered advanced, appears similar to what my generation considered average or normal education 30-40 years ago."</p>

<p>I don't see this at all. I can tell you that the IB curriculum my son is going through is substantially more advanced than my own high school curriculum was over 30 years ago. Of course, that was in a small city with one high school and no AP at all at the time. But even the "honors" courses were far inferior in content to IB. Examples: no calculus, very little writing, nothing at all like the Extended Essay, poor lab science, pretty simply history textbooks, etc. The one thing that I think we did better was French pronunciation, because we used a lot of tapes, which they don't seem to do now. I suppose kids in bigger cities probably had better curricula, but I suspect they had the same kind of easy textbooks.</p>

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<p>Personally, i don't have an opinion on the "Committee on Programs for Advanced Study of Mathematics and Science in American High Schools". They could be an "Authority" on education in math and science. On the other hand, just because they are a "Committee"; made up of parents, high school teachers, and some college professors; doesn't mean they are an "Authority". Any of us could compile a committee of parents and teachers and make certain claims. That doesn't make them any more an authority. But that isn't my point.</p>

<p>My point is; if the AP and IB classes/program still don't meet the college prep standards that the "Committee on Programs for Advanced Study of Mathematics and Science in American High Schools" recommends; then that means that "Traditional" schools and education are probably even less effective. So, it still proves the point that the AP and IB classes/program is better than the traditional method.</p>

<p>Is it possible to have a "Better" education system that does more to prepare students for college and the workforce? Of course. Nothing is perfect. I don't like to compare different countries and how "THEY DO IT". There are too many variables. Some countries tax people out the nose. Some are small enough to have a span of control that is easy to manage. There are many variables that have to be looked at. Of course, if a person believes that a government needs to provide all of our needs from education to health care to unemployment, and so on; and it doesn't matter how much we are taxed because it's worth it; then there can't be a debate. But in our country; most people prefer less government, less taxes, more control at the family and state level, etc.... Therefor, making certain changes to be equal with how "Any other country" does it, has to be weighed for the pros and cons.</p>

<p>Either way, I think most people admit that the AP and IB classes/program are better than the traditional K-12 education taking only standard classes. With the AP and IB classes/program, you are more and better prepared for college than the traditional student in the K-12 education. And that both the AP and IB classes/program have their pros and cons. AP offers advanced curriculum in specific subject matters with the intent being to excel in areas that the particular student naturally does better in; and to obtain college credit for taking advanced classes. IB is a program designed to teach the student to think differently, study differently, see the world differently, and be more of the larger picture. Both help prepare students for college. Academically and with the IB program it includes social and personal advancements.</p>

<p>No matter what the criticism is of the IB program; and even AP classes; they are both better than the traditional K-12 education. Now, if they want to redesign a system that starts in 1st grade and expands; then the AP and IB classes/program make not be needed some day. But until then, it's a pretty good alternative.</p>

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<p>Hunt; i agree with you. Don't take my words as definitive. </p>

<p>If you take the standard K-12 education of today; it is my opinion that it is much worse than what school was when I went to school 30-40 years ago. Honors classes/AP classes are great, but they concentrate mainly on specific classes. The IB program; is a program. If is for the entire education curriculum of the student.</p>

<p>I believe that the IB program is indeed better; but it's like a return to what many of us had in school growing up. By all means, the IB program is more advanced. But I see the amount of homework, the type of classes, etc... that my kids are doing in IB, and they seem to have the same goal as my public school had in new jersey while I was growing up. I had calc, physics, chem, trig, other high level classes. Socially; we were into volunteering, boy/girl scouts, youth groups, etc... We had about 2 hours of homework every night; did some projects on the weekends; etc... Now, compared to a traditional K-12 curriculum today, they don't compare.</p>

<p>Maybe the way I should have phrased it was: "The IB program seems closer in curriculum, goals, educations, etc... to my education of 30-40 years ago; than it does to a traditional K-12 education today". This I do believe in. Maybe not every school in the country. Maybe not everyone's background. I went to public school and it was a lot more structured and challenging than today's standard K-12 education seems to be.</p>

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<p>xiggi: I have no problem with the excerpt of the report from the Committee on Programs for Advanced Study . . . In fact, I agree with some of their comments, particularly under "Instruction." </p>

<p>As I've stated before, an IB (or AP) program is only as effective as the resources put into the programs. Quality of instruction certainly falls into that category. </p>

<p>With regard to comments under "Curriculum," though, our experience has been that while many IB programs do provide a broad range of offerings, students actually do have to make some individual decisions (early on) about concentration of subject matter. They aren't all over the place, superficially touching on many and varied subjects (though, truth be told, isn't that what liberal arts colleges encourage, at least for the first 2 years?). </p>

<p>In fact, the IB program with which we are most familiar had a much heavier emphasis on hard sciences and foreign languages, than in the broad humanities or social sciences. As I understood it, that was solely because the IB teacher training for these particular subjects was stronger and deeper than in the humanities (for this particular school). So, with regard to their example (1 year science courses, lack of conceptual understanding), that was absolutely not the case in our experience. (At the time, I felt that was actually a drawback of this particular program-- that there was not a comparable heavy emphasis in the humanities.) Many students chose not to participate, simply because of this concentration on the hard sciences and foreign language emphasis. Certainly, the IB HL hard science exams require a deep understanding of the subject matter. I just don't think a student would do well on those HL exams, without a deep understanding of the science studied (ie, physics and the math that would necessarily accompany that understanding).</p>

<p>Again, this is our experience. As stated before, all programs (AP, IB, etc) will vary across schools and regions- no doubt about it. In our experience, however, it was an outstanding program, in the way the courses were taught, and in what these students got out of it. Again, they were very well-prepared for university, on many levels. So I have no complaints.</p>

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<p>janieblue, just to illustrate how much individual IB programs differ, I will point out that the one I'm most familiar with heavily emphasizes the humanities, arts, and social sciences, with a particularly outstanding history program. Last year's graduating class got the highest scores in the world on the IB HL History (Europe) exam.</p>

<p>The hard sciences are not so spectacular, partly because our county also has a math/science/computer science magnet program, which tends to draw away those students with a special interest in science who might otherwise have chosen IB. This year, it was a major event at the school when an IB student became an Intel finalist. This had never happened before in the history of the school (which has had an IB program for more than 20 years). Most students at this school would never even consider attempting an Intel project.</p>

<p>Every school is different.</p>

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<p>The excerpt xiggi provided above was written in 2002, I believe, sponsored by the NSF and the U.S. Dept of Education. The report also stated:</p>

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The primary aim of programs such as Advanced Placement and International Baccalaureate should be to help students achieve deep understanding of the content and unifying ideas of a science or math discipline," said Jerry P. Gollub, co-chair of the committee that wrote the report, and professor of physics, Haverford College, Haverford, Pa. "In advanced chemistry, for example, students should not only explore the atomic nature of matter, but also learn how it can explain chemical bonding that holds molecules together, as well as the widely varying tendency of different materials to react. On the whole, well-designed advanced programs must provide opportunities to experiment, critically analyze information, argue about ideas, and solve problems. Simply exposing students to advanced material or duplicating college courses is not by itself a satisfactory goal."

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<p>I agree with the above. </p>

<p>The report also stated,</p>

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AP and IB have raised the level of mathematics and science education in the United States. However, their efforts to emphasize the key concepts in science disciplines have been largely unrealized because of the excessive number of topics covered in each subject.

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<p>Again, in our school, the emphasis was on certain IB subjects, and students had to choose specific subject concentrations, early on, so these subjects were studied in-depth.</p>

<p>Also stated, similar to what was quoted above, but not exactly:</p>

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A major problem with both programs is the lack of detailed research about what their examinations actually measure, the committee found. In particular, not enough is known about what kind of thinking the exams elicit. Given this data gap, colleges and universities should view AP and IB test scores as only one of many sources of information needed to accurately assess each student's capabilities and level of understanding.

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<p>No problem with this, either. At the time this was written (2002), there was simply a lack of research data on what the exams might actually measure. Consequently, the suggestion that universities should use AP and IB scores as only one of many sources to evaluate a student, makes good sense.</p>

<p>A final comment,</p>

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At the same time, educators and researchers should explore the development of alternative programs for advanced study in the nation's high schools, and evaluate new and promising approaches. The availability of more alternatives could increase students' access to advanced study and lead to innovative and effective teaching strategies.

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<p>I see nothing wrong with evaluating new approaches and the availability of even more alternatives for advanced study. Sounds positive to me. </p>

<p>Again, this report was made in 2002, with the study presumably made even earlier. The comment below simply suggests ways for improvement, but in no way does it dismiss the value of IB education.</p>

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A lack of well-prepared teachers and the inadequacy of students' prior schooling are two factors that shrink the number of prospective participants. "Improvements on these fronts could significantly enlarge the population that the programs could serve well," said committee co-chair Philip C. Curtis Jr., professor emeritus of mathematics, University of California, Los Angeles.

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<p>Marian: Yes, I absolutely agree that every school is different in this regard. I have heard that before-- that many IB programs heavily emphasize the humanities. Our school was just the opposite. I believe that was the case for many reasons, but just thought I would point it out, since the excerpt from that study was specific to the sciences.</p>

<p>This has been some years now, so this particular high school may be more "even" now, with its IB concentrations/offerings.</p>

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<p>Nobody ends up happy in Madame Bovary, I see no problem for anyone reading it, but I'm not Christian.</p>

<p>I think saying we can't emulate the better education systems of smaller countries is a complete cop-out.</p>

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<p>For anyone interested in readiing more about the examples of Finland, Belgium, and the Netherlands regarding international tests, there is a new thread in the Cafe:</p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parent-cafe/467782-why-do-finns-score-so-high-international-test.html#post1059867548%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parent-cafe/467782-why-do-finns-score-so-high-international-test.html#post1059867548&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>The direct link to the WSJ article is What</a> Makes Finnish Kids So Smart? - WSJ.com</p>

<p>Fwiw, while the WSJ article covers the basic discussion, I would encourage everyone to check the analyses of the success of several countries at the OECD website. While I *had *to do it in the context of school work, I believe it offers a fascinating angle and a departure from the mostly insular views of the United States regarding the direction of our education system.</p>

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<p>Janie, thank you for reading the report with such attention. </p>

<p>PS And, fwiw, I am indeed far removed from having to deal with the education of my own children. There are quite a few hurdles I need to jump before that happening, including finding the right soul mate. I believe that, when that time comes, our education landscape will be quite different than it is today with numerous actors who are currently not playing the part they could be playing. School reform will happen sooner or later.</p>

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<p>It's been ages since I've read Mme. B. so I'll defer to you on how sexual it is. I remember finding it incredibly irritating. But I haven't got much problem with my high school students reading anything. </p>

<p>The reality is that we have a lot of dysfunctional families (or lack of families) in the inner cities. I think until we fix the social problems are educational issues there won't be solved and we have a lot of English language learners. But there's no reason why the rest of our schools couldn't be a lot better than they are.</p>

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<p>Yes, our education system does in part revolve around our economics. But let's not go too deep into believing we have to fix all the country's problem before our education system can be fixed. This can make discussions get way out of hand. I for one am not a proponent of a one world socio-economic system. I believe in nationalism. I don't believe that mine and your taxes should go to openly support illegal immigrants. I have no problem whatsoever if an illegal immigrant is refused financial aid, scholarships, admissions, etc... I don't care how "Top Notch" they are. Now; when all our CITIZEN'S children are taken care of and are getting the education that they deserve, then we can worry about helping illegal immigrants and the rest of the world.</p>

<p>Same goes with language. Every country in the world has 1 predominant language. Ours happens to be english. If a child doesn't speak english, that is not the teacher's fault or problem. The family needs to take care of that. I am 2nd generation American. My mother was the first in her family to be born here. My grandparents moved here, went through Ellis Island, and started with nothing. They didn't know the language and had to learn to assimilate. They learned english. They made sure their children learned english. Much different than many of the immigrants today; usually illegal; who don't learn the language. Parents don't need formal schools to learn english. Children are even easier. Again; I am not for wasting resources on such programs. There are pre-requisites to many things in our lives. Speaking english should be a pre-requisite to a child entering school. If they don't, then the parents better find a way to teach them. I'm not talking about reading and writing. I'm talking about speaking english. They need to be able to communicate. The burden is on them. Not our society. My family had to do it and probably many others. No different here.</p>

<p>I also have no problem with the rigid standards of the no left behind concept. I'd rather a school be closed than not teaching kids and just pushing them through. Rules and standards like that have to be tough. If they aren't, then it will be another 20 years, and 3 more generations, before any real change is found. I feel the same way about welfare. It should not be a generational thing. There should be time limits on welfare. If you're capable of working and aren't off welfare by a certain time period, then you lose your welfare. If you whine and complain about how your poor welfare children are going to starve, don't worry. We can take them away from you and put them in foster families. The state is already paying for them anyway. Yes it sounds cruel and insensitive. It's not. It's tough love. Welfare during the early 20th century was not intended to be a way of life. It was a temporary helping hand until you got back on your feet. Our country has allowed welfare, illegal immigration, the language issue, political correctness,, and many other "Social" enigmas to become a way of life and the norm instead of the exception.</p>

<p>We definitely have a lot of improvements needed in our educational system. But it needs to be prioritized. And sorry for anyone here who is an illegal immigrant, but you are the lowest priority of all in my book. I give and support many charitable organizations and causes. But american citizens have to be taken care of first.</p>

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Top students are refused financial aid and scholarships and college admission if they are discovered to be illegal.

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<p>Well, here's a novel idea: Apply to be legal citizens, and then stand in line with the rest of the legal citizens for financial aid, scholarships, and college admission.</p>

<p>There are, however, many states that currently allow illegal immigrants to attend their state universities and pay in-state tuition, if those students have been living in the state and attending the state's high schools.</p>