Lack of IB credit from colleges frustrates high schools.

Parents Forum
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<p>Janieblue:</p>

<p>Indeed it was rewarding, both for my son and my wife and I. It was a community of children and adults. Many of the parents of the class of 2003, my son's, still come together in DC in a reading group. But, like any school it had its problems. It was expensive, and was becoming even more so since it compares itself to Sidwell and St. Albans, and there were sometimes tensions among the students because of issues on the world scene.</p>

<p>Here is a link: <a href="http://www.wis.edu%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.wis.edu&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>Tsdad, do you think that WIS is a *true *representative of the IB programs in the US, especially among public schools that are not that close to the Potomac? What do you estimate the percentage of fully integrated K-12 IB programs is?</p>

<p>While looking at the top performing schools in the country is instructive, the real test is about the impact of the program at the average --or below average school-- that after adopting the IB program is struggling to balance the three elements of education time, depth, and breadth of curriculum.</p>

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<p>
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Tsdad, do you think that WIS is a true representative of the IB programs in the US, especially among public schools that are not that close to the Potomac? What do you estimate the percentage of fully integrated K-12 IB programs is?

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<p>I agree with you, which is something I often don't do. WIS is not totally unique though, the UN School in New York is similar. While we were living in Fairfax County it appeared that FCPS did a horrible job with the IB. OTOH the program in Falls Church City is held in high regard. </p>

<p>But because the IB is a way of learning and thinking it needs to be taught consistently beginning in pre-k. Most American public school systems do not do that. I am sure there is some benefit to the 9-12 only IB program, but the overall educational benefit, in my opinion, is lost if the program is not started in primary school. Plus WIS students study a language other than English for 13 years including 2 or 3 years of total immersion. </p>

<p>I don't mean to say that the 9-12 students don't work hard and learn a lot, I know based on my son's experience that they do, but IB is more that just learning information. It is how you learn and how you think. It is not about advanced credits. When done well it marks you.</p>

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<p>Tsdad, thank you for the additional angle.</p>

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<p>tsdad: Thanks for the link. I agree with your assessment, too, that " . . . IB is more that just learning information. It is how you learn and how you think. It is not about advanced credits. When done well it marks you." I do think that's the real value of IB. I can imagine that going through an excellent IB program, from kindergarten on, would be a rewarding educational experience, on many levels.</p>

<p>We moved around quite a bit in the earlier years (including living abroad), and the IB program at our daughter's high school (9-12) was truly excellent. Interestingly, her particular (public) school was incredibly diverse, on many levels, and the students in the IB program at her school certainly reflected that diversity. Most of those students already spoke other languages, either at home, with their families (foreign-born), and/or had studied formally, usually for 8+ years or more.</p>

<p>As stated before, any IB program is only as good as the school itself (ie, resources dedicated to the program, including proper teacher training, broad course offerings, etc). This is, of course, true for any area or program of study, in any school, anywhere.</p>

<p>Obviously, IB is not for everyone, just as home-schooling, or charter schools, or a Montessori learning environment isn't for everyone. As far as I'm concerned, though, the more options available to fit what any student might need or want, the better. I don't think multiple learning options, or IB programs, pose a threat to our public educational system. Just like universities, you make your choices based on quality, need, fit, affordability, and whatever else is important to you.</p>

<p>I do believe that most universities in this country are aware of IB and recognize its value and rigor. If the IB diploma students I know are any indication, going through the program served them well. They have all done remarkably well, both academically and personally. They were all accepted to their first choice universities/colleges, and they continue to thrive.</p>

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<p>I will throw out another perspective that may depend on the school.</p>

<p>I would agree that the IB program is more the whole package from what I have seen- depending on the school- I am casually familiar with two schools with IB one in Seattle & one in Bellevue through relatives/friends.</p>

<p>In Seattle IB is in one school in North End & one school in South End. Each program was originally implemented to attract students to underenrolled schools. Because Seattle has several schools that are known for programs alongside AP, I have the impression, that the schools with AP attract the stronger students/teachers at this time.</p>

<p>The IB Seattle school seems more flexible regarding enrollment of students than advertised, apparently they are having difficulty getting enough people enrolled in classes- so it sounds like there are students in classes who aren't enrolled in the whole program.</p>

<p>In the Bellevue school, I only know of my nieces experience. They would agree that it is a whole program and IB kids are a unit that seems seperate from the rest of the school in many ways. They would consider this a good thing- but watching my own daughter attend a very diverse school that is considered inner city but also has many AP classes, I would not argue that it is always to the students benefit to have more homogenous classrooms.
I will admit that it can be very disruptive to the whole class, if everyone isn't there to learn, even one person can take things off track.
But I also know, that there are students, like my daughter for example, who both benefit from being in a challenging classroom & have a lot to contribute to others.</p>

<p>( this of course is seperate from the getting college credit in high school issue- but my thought on that is- there are early entrance programs at universities that are designed for that, if that is something that the student is ready for- so why not go for the real meal deal if that is what you are after?)</p>

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<p>
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. . . there are students, like my daughter for example, who both benefit from being in a challenging classroom & have a lot to contribute to others.

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<p>I think that's a good point, but IB diploma students aren't clones of each other. Though certainly bright, they each have their own strengths and weaknesses, so that they are still contributing, academically, socially, and personally. </p>

<p>Students are always going to be separated, based on choice of classes or extracurriculars. They all still contribute to their school community in positive ways, aside from choosing a specific academic program. Don't they?</p>

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<p>Janieblue, did your daughter take any AP exams for credit?</p>

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<p>She took the IB exams-- a mix of higher level and standard level, though I don't remember the exact number (only the complaints about the level of difficulty with the HL).</p>

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<p>Here's a couple of opinions I have about the entire program.</p>

<p>1st; I believe that our general education system has been "dumbing down". When we; people 45-55 years old were in school; especially elementary school; the teachers taught to a standard. The students were expected to rise to that standard. If they didn't, they could/would be held back. Now, most schools teach to the "lowest common denominator". Therefor; my opinion is that AP classes and the IB program while having the appearance of being "Advanced", are of the standard that many of us would have considered to be the "Norm" 40 years ago. If we could get the IB program started in 1st grade; we could get ALL KIDS IN IT instead of later on the "Bright" ones. Then, we could get rid of the "Standard" education and the IB program could be the "Norm".</p>

<p>2nd; Which brings up the next point that with IB predominantly being in the 9th - 12th grades in the USA, it caters more to the advanced kids. Too many schools however feel, or are not allowed, to say so. In 8th grade, when my daughter and I went to the orientation, they used words like "Challenging" and such, but never really mentioned it being for kids who normally excelled in their classes. Because of that, there are a lot of drop outs in certain programs. I.e. In our school, which is small, about 130-150 enroll in the IB program for their 9th grade year. Approximately 35 are going to graduate having finished the IB program. Many of the kids dropped back to "Normal" classes. Most going into 10th grade, but some did in 11th and 12th. It's not the curriculum, because those who stuck it out did extremely well and are doing the same course work as everyone else around the country and world. I just think that if they are only going to offer it in 9-12, that they should be a little more honest with the parents and kids who are interested. </p>

<p>3rd; IB in 9-12 is still better than none at all. Obviously it would be great if it started in the 1st grade, but I think that will only be in private schools. My kids did public school. Our school and one other are the only 2 in the entire state doing the IB program.</p>

<p>4th; I've noticed a definite ego/personality problems in our 2 schools among teachers and administrators who AREN'T in the IB program. They talk bad about the IB program and how it's NOT GOOD education for the kids. I think the ego problem is that these teachers weren't selected to get trained and be part of the program. Also, many of these teachers are old school. Many of them became teachers around 1980 and therefor are part of the education problem we have today with public education. Mind you, our society and what has become acceptable is the true problem, but teachers fall into the category. An AP teacher is very proud of their classes because to them it's an "ADVANCED" class. The IB program however is a complete program, so there are personality issues with the other teachers. </p>

<p>Anyway; you all know I think the IB program is great. It's not perfect, but it's a much better well rounded education than anything else available. AP classes are great for someone who excels in a particular or specific area. BUT, if you want your kid to EXCEL in ALL areas, then the IB program is the answer. However, parent involvement is very important. If you've been involved with your kid's education since 1st grade, and they have become self motivated to do well, then you will be fine. If they are the normal "C" and "B" student who you have to check they that are doing homework, turning in assignments, have ANY issues to talk with teachers about during parent/teacher meetings; then your kid can do IB, but you will need to be very involved and very supportive. You can't expect a kid to go 10 years with the traditional way of learning and expect them to do the IB program on their own. That's why it's difficult.</p>

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<p>I am afraid I'd have to disagree with your positions on what constitutes a standard and especially with conclusions. </p>

<p>Courses that fall in the one mile wide and one inch deep should not be the basis of our curriculum. Our high school students perform so poorly in comparison with the rest of the industralized world because of the lack of DEPTH of our curricula, not because of the lack of "well rounded classes." </p>

<p>If we want to develop a better system of education, why not learn from the countries that perform the best on a worldwide basis? Why not learn from Korea, Finland, the Netherlands, Belgium, etc before deciding what represents a better standard? Do they have the 500-800 pages text book filled with plenty of pictures and inserts, or do they have basic but complete textbooks? What do they know that we don't? Why does a backwater third-world country such as Cuba have an elementary school system that performs better than ours? </p>

<p>We should not measure our successes based on educating the "chosen few" who are accepted in "open" AP and IB classes or attend magnet or selective private schools. Our successes should be measured in our ability to elevate the common denominator to a reasonable level.</p>

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<p>I agree, but the answer is not to teach to the common denominator. That is what has messed up our education system. As you said, the answer is to elevate the common denominator. That means no more political correctness. It means leaving a kid in a particular grade instead of passing them through. It mean letting parents get p*ssed off at the system and forcing them to be active in their children's lives instead of pretending to be too busy and letting the kids have free reign of their education.</p>

<p>But that is not what this thread is about. It's about the IB program. The IB program is an excellent program; but my observation is that the level of learning in the IB program today, while considered advanced, appears similar to what my generation considered average or normal education 30-40 years ago. </p>

<p>I believe the answer, to almost everything, lies with the family. Mainly the parents. That's the most difficult part of all of this. But as far as the IB program goes, at least there is an option. AP classes were designed because certain kids excelled in certain areas and if left without any further challenges, they would become bored and actually regress in their educational accomplishments. I think the IB is the next progression. It take that challenge and incorporates it into the student's entire learning process. Now I'd love to see it become the norm for all students. Maybe someday it will.</p>

<p>Even though some other countries have what some consider a better education system; (I lived in both the Netherlands and Belgium. It's not stellar)); you should realize that they too have the IB program. Remember, it's the "International Baccalaureate" program. It's headquarters is in Geneva. All the kids are taking the same exact courses. Also; MANY students from different countries; if they have the money; come to the USA for college/university. There's also a reason for that.</p>

<p>IB is a fantastic program. As far as our elementary, junior high, and high school educational problems; the answer lies with the parents when their kids are in elementary school. It's that simple. Of course, there will be a million excuses about economics, single parents, working 2 shifts, no time, etc... Sorry, but I don't buy it. I grew up as poor as I can think. I had a single parent until I was almost 10. My mom did "WHATEVER" she had to to put food on the table. But she managed to find time to spend with me and my sister and ensure we did well in school. So we would be able to do better than her. If people don't have time for kids, they shouldn't be having kids. With modern medicine, they have determined the cause of pregnancy. It is preventable. If parents would become responsible, our education system would be fine.</p>

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<p>
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Even though some other countries have what some consider a better education system; (I lived in both the Netherlands and Belgium. It's not stellar)); you should realize that they too have the IB program. Remember, it's the "International Baccalaureate" program. It's headquarters is in Geneva.

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<p>Christcorp, since you lived in both Belgium and the Netherlands, you may wantto refresh your memory. As far as stellar education systems, I believe that no such animal exist! This said, both the Netherlands and Flemish Belgium does perform much better than the United States on the international comparative tests such as TIMMS and PISA. I encourage you to check the reports that are widely available. Fwiw, the extended reports will also discuss the issues of stratification and integration of immigrants that continue to plague Western Europe. Again, while no system is perfect, it is possible for some to perform better than ours. </p>

<p>Regarding the IB availability in Belgium, none are offered at schools recognized by the Belgian authorities. Since you lived in Belgium, you must know that the six schools that offer the IB curriculum are international schools that operate outside the jurisdiction of the Ministry of Education. It would be a mistake to believe that the six schools that operate in Belgium are the most competitive in the country, or are more competitive than many private schools in the United States. Stated simply, they operate differently.</p>

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<p>I do understand that. But the IB program is still recognized and accepted as course work. There is a reason that there are 2,256 schools in 126 countries. And that number keeps growing.</p>

<p>Look, I'm not trying to argue that our "Standard" education system in this country is fantastic. I've admitted a number of times that it has gone down hill dramatically over the last 30-40 years. But for some reason, I get the impression that you believe the IB program is not a very good method of educating our children. Or at the very least that because it's such a small number of schools; that the majority of students don't benefit from it. Therefor it's not affective</p>

<p>There are plenty of commissions, studies, department of education, senate and house reports, etc... all stating the IB program as a very positive step towards a better education. Example: Could</a> The International Baccalaureate Program Change U.S. Education?</p>

<p>Is it the end all answer to our educational problems? No; I don't think so. That answer lies with parents. They are who can fix the education system. Not the government. AP classes and the IB programs; and similar other alternatives are a current option for families who do care and have been proactive with their children's education. These programs are there to challenge students. Without them, the children who's parents have supported their educational growth, and or the students have become self motivated; would become complacent and lose interest. </p>

<p>I for one am glad the IB program is at my kid's high school. I am glad to see more and more schools adopting the programs. Hopefully, some day our education system can reach back down to the 1st grader where the problem needs to be addressed. Unfortunately, that won't happen until we get parents more involved.</p>

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<p>I would like to apologize to the original poster for my passion of the IB program allowing the thread to move off topic. That was not my intention.</p>

<p>To put it back on track; I believe that based on the numerous posts, that most parents who's kids are involved in the IB program do believe that more colleges should grant college credit to IB courses. At the very least, if they give credit to AP classes, then IB classes should also be considered. The course work is generally just as advanced.</p>

<p>I also believe that most parent's here who are involved in the IB program also believe however that college credit is not the prime objective of the IB program. It is a "PROGRAM". A program that is college preparatory in nature. That it helps students prepare better for college. That it helps the student become a more well rounded student and individual. That it's greatest attribute is it's ability to teach the students how to learn more effectively. I have seen the results of the IB program. I have seen numerous students first hand and how they adapt and assimilate to college. Many times much easier than their non-IB peers. Thus; able to take advantage better of a college education. That is definitely worth the time and effort put into the IB program. Again, sorry for allowing the topic to go off track.</p>

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<p>tsdad: I'm not sure I agree that going through the IB primary and middle years programs is necessarily the best preparation for the IB diploma program.</p>

<p>The problem here is that the programs for younger students are designed for ALL students, while the diploma program is intended only for those who are university-bound. There is a level of rigor in the diploma program that would not be appropriate for the younger students' programs because the younger students' programs must be designed so that all can succeed, while it is openly acknowledged that some students are not suitable candidates for the diploma program.</p>

<p>Much depends, of course, on the population of students in the school and how the school approaches the IB curriculum. </p>

<p>The suburban high school that my daughter attended, and its feeder middle school, actually had the IB middle years program available as an option. Some 11th and 12th grade students in the IB diploma program came from that program, while others came from two years of special pre-IB preparation in 9th and 10th grades, with no exposure to IB before that. The general consensus among the kids was that the students from the middle years program were not as well prepared for the diploma years as those who had gone through the locally designed 9th and 10th grade prep years because the middle years program was less rigorous.</p>

<p>But of course, this reflects the experience of only one school. Other schools may have different experiences. A private school that serves a population where all are very capable academically could probably develop a seamless and very rewarding IB program for the full 12 grades.</p>

<p>Christcorp, I wish I had gone to your high school. My high school education of thirtysomething years ago was not as good as what my kids received (both the one in IB and the one who went to a regular high school). </p>

<p>Xiggi, I think we should judge the merits of a school system by how well it meets the needs of all of its students. Assessing a school system ONLY on the basis of how well it raises the common denominator to a reasonable level is not enough. Neither is assessing the system ONLY on the basis of the opportunities it offers for its best students to go as far as their abilities will take them. Both of these things, and many more, should be incorporated into the definition of success.</p>

<p>Also, Xiggi, if there is one thing IB is NOT, it's a mile-wide, inch-deep curriculum. In fact, IB is known for having more depth and less breadth than AP. </p>

<p>Kids who have taken AP exams will tell you that in order to succeed on many of them, you have to have memorized vast amounts of trivia and be able to answer extremely picky multiple-choice questions. </p>

<p>IB exams are different. Most of them are entirely or mostly essay tests, and the students have choices of which essay topics to write about. It's the depth and organization of what the student has to say about the chosen topics that serve as the basis for the exam grade.</p>

<p>You can compare, for example, IB versus AP history tests. The two have one thing in common: both include a document-based question. Beyond that, the tests are very different. The rest of the IB exam is ALL essay (five hours of essay writing for HL). Most of the rest of the AP exam is multiple-choice (although I think there is one additional essay). Thus, the two tests are two very different experiences.</p>

<p>In addition, IB "exam" grades are never based solely on a single written exam. There are always other elements included -- projects completed as class assignments (technically called internal assessments or external assessments -- IAs or EAs, and it is not important to understand the difference between the two), and sometimes one-on-one oral testing as well. How well the student performs on these other assessments is incorporated into the "exam" grade. This is why you can take an AP test without having taken the course, but you cannot do the same with an IB test.</p>

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<p>I do think these separate issues deserve their own thread, but I would like to comment on the statement that "courses that fall in the one mile wide and one inch deep should not be the basis of our curriculum." Since that comment was made twice, I assume it's about IB. Unless you have been enrolled in a well-run IB school or IB program yourself-- I don't know how you could come to that unsupported and unfair generalization. I think you'd also have to research students who have completed these well-run IB programs, perhaps in comparison with those who have not, to make any type of valid or fair conclusion.</p>

<p>I'll also add that no country's educational system is perfect. Again (for the umpteenth time), schools-- and how students are taught and how individual students learn-- are not uniform. They all vary greatly-- across states, regions, towns, and even within miles of each other. How students learn, even within families, is not uniform. This is precisely why people choose certain types of schools or programs, and not others.</p>

<p>Schools are only as strong as the resources, financial and otherwise, put into them. That absolutely includes parental involvement. I do believe that no matter how great (or not) an educational system may be, the parents need to be actively involved in the home and actively engaged in a child's education. </p>

<p>No doubt, many public school systems could be improved, but I'm really skeptical of comments made by a relatively young person who has, I'm guessing, spent most of his/her life in the luxury of private schools, and possibly with no children of his/her own, making sweeping generalizations about the ineffectiveness of U.S. public education. </p>

<p>Certainly, in the U.S., one has the choice of opting out of any public educational system and going the private route. I have no problems with that and am happy to be in a country where those options exist. However, if one feels strongly enough that our educational system is deficient and must be overhauled, I would hope that these thoughtful activists would put their efforts into actually attending public schools themselves, sending their own children to them, or choose to teach in them-- in order to see how some of them might actually run, first-hand. To get actively involved and help facilitate improvement, on a personal level, is invaluable.</p>

<p>Marian: We cross-posted. Excellent comments, all. Thanks.</p>

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<p>Great discussion ! I have learned so much from this thread, I am actually sending this along to my two friends who are also considering IB for their kids.
I am going to PM some of you IB parents with more specific questions. Hope you do not mind:-)</p>

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<p>Mile wide inch deep nearly always refers to APs on CCs. I don't think that's so terrible - the typical survey course and many intro courses in college will also be a mile wide and an inch deep. You just don't want it to be 100% of the curriculum.</p>

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<p>"Hunt, all I can say is that reading critically might help understand my comments about the "remedial" nature of the program in elitist private schools outside the United States."</p>

<p>Aw, c'mon, Xiggi, it doesn't take much critical reading to realize that you were taking a shot with that characterization. If you don't like IB, that's OK by me.</p>