<p>Greetings,</p>
<p>I will be transferring to UM for the upcoming fall semester, and was looking into which math class to start off with. </p>
<p>Background Information: Have an ~800 in SAT Reasoning Math. Never took SAT Math Subject Tests because I didn't think there was a need to if I enrolled in AP Calculus. Took AP Calculus in high-school, and Calculus 1-3, Linear Algebra, and Differential Equations at previous institution. However, even though I passed each class with an A, I wasn't satisfied with the format of the classes. Generally, the use of special formulas, and application of certain techniques was taught. Unfortunately, never were the inner workings of the techniques, which I find interesting, and believe are necessary to fully understand the material, touched. Along with not feeling too confident about being on the same level as other UM students, none of my mathematics credits transferred due to nonexistent credit equivalencies.</p>
<p>Basically, I need to register for an introductory math sequence at UM. I have looked at sequences and I find the 295-296-395-396 sequence to suit my interests. Would anyone be able to provide insights on MATH 295 and the honors sequence as a whole? I have a planned orientation soon, so I took the UM Math Placement exam, and was placed among the top percentile. What do I need to do to enroll in the honors sequence? I know that I need to get departmental permission, but don't know how to do so. Is there a specific procedure for this or will I be able to register for the course through meeting with the math advisor at orientation?</p>
<p>Also, it would be helpful if any alumni of the honors sequence would detail their personal experiences with the honors sequence. Insightful replies are greatly appreciated! </p>
<p>GO BLUE!</p>
<p>I didn’t take it so I can’t provide a whole lot. Not sure if anyone who regularly posts here has. But it sounds like you know what to expect and that this is what would be best for you.</p>
<p>My S never had to study for Math before taking 295-396 sequence. So, it was quite an eye-opening experience when he had to finally study and spend 6-15 hrs/wk to do the weekly p-set. He learned to appreciate the “beauty & elegance” of math and really loved this sequence. </p>
<p>Heard that most of his classmates had had AP Calc BC prior to taking the sequence (at least, extremely good at Math in HS), and yet, many dropped out. I think there were ~50 students at the start of his 295, and by the first exam, about 1/3 had dropped; only ~26 finished 295, and even less continued on with the sequence.</p>
<p>@parentOf2018
Did your son take other time-consuming courses along with 295? Do you know if 295 could have caused time management problems for him because it was his first time studying consistently?</p>
<p>Reason I am asking is because I have tested out of EECS 183, and am planning on enrolling in EECS 280, which I’ve heard many complain about due to the sheer amount of time needed to complete projects.</p>
<p>P.S. I saw a thread you started asking about enrolling in EECS 183, 280, etc. UM offers a diagnostic tool to test out of EECS 183. Given project shouldn’t take too long to complete. With testing and debugging, maybe 2 hours or so.
More about the tool: <a href=“http://cs.lsa.umich.edu/are-you-ready-for-eecs-280/”>http://cs.lsa.umich.edu/are-you-ready-for-eecs-280/</a>
Page that has the tool: <a href=“http://g280.eecs.umich.edu/”>http://g280.eecs.umich.edu/</a></p>
<p>@WolverineTrader, thanks for the links on eecs 183/280. I’ll pass them on to my S.</p>
<p>In regards to 295, that was the first & the only UM course he took/audited that semester, along with his non-college courses at his regular school. That first semester was rough for him mainly because he had to quickly learn how to take good notes, study, manage his time better, learn how to ask for help if needed, etc… all of which he never had to or knew how to do before 295.</p>
<p>I remember talking to 1 of his classmates who seemed to be doing just fine taking at least 3 Honors classes that 1st semester: Math 295, Physics 160 and Great Books (plus other non-honor classes). It’s a lot of hard work, but it’s doable, as long as one has good study skills, or can quickly acquire those much needed skills.</p>
<p>In any case, if 295 turns out to not work well for the student, typically they can fall back to 285 (at least that’s what I heard). The best person to discuss this with is probably Prof. DeBacker from the Math dept.</p>
<p>@parentOf2018
Believe I have the study skills for topics I thoroughly enjoy. Want to get out to experience the university atmosphere, though; now, I think studying for all courses will not take up too much time if 295 should take only 6-15 hours/week.</p>
<p>I think that I will be unable to speak with someone from the math department until orientation time due to restrictions in schedule due to conducting research and unfavorable traveling distance. Planning to discuss with a math advisor or professor, maybe Professor DeBacker, once orientation time arrives. Thanks for the advice.</p>
<p>It’s my impression that someone who does well with only 10-hours a week on average put into the class is quite a smart person. </p>
<p>@Vladenschlutte
That seems to be true. Unfortunately, since the math courses at my previous institution weren’t as rigorous, I wouldn’t have to study much out of class, except for doing homework; I was mainly doing personal CS projects in my free time. I know that the amount of studying I will need to do will change at UM and I am ready for that change. How many hours a week studying per rigorous course do you think is the average, 15-25? Heard some say that more hours are needed for some EECS courses, EECS 280 included. Would you have any idea on that?</p>
<p>The time requirements are largely dependent on your own academic abilities. I’ve heard of people requiring ~40 hours/week for problem sets in 295/296 while others found those courses fairly easy. On the other hand, it seems that 395/396 are relatively difficult and time-consuming for everyone. Note: I didn’t take the 295-396 sequence, but I know a lot of students who did.</p>
<p>Similarly, the workload in EECS 280 is dependent on your background/abilities. If you have prior knowledge of c++, then 280 should be pretty easy. </p>
<p>The advise to talk to Prof Debacker is good. My high school son audited the 295 course this Spring and we spoke for awhile with the Professor. The number that do drop back to 285 is significant but those that remain are very tight. There is a problem set due I believe each Monday that the group usually stays up most of the night working on every week (to give you an idea). </p>
<p>@nubswitstubs
I guess I’ll just have to study however much I need to. I’ll find that out when classes begin.</p>
<p>In regards to EECS 280, would you know how deep the course delves into c++ and data structures? I’ve previously reviewed most of the topics on the EECS 280 syllabus, but am expecting them to be covered in greater depth throughout the course. What can I expect?</p>
<p>@wayneandgarth
That sounds great. For me, the tightness of a class will be beneficial when compared to the larger size of the other courses. Studying late through nights and, concurrently, working on problem sets is something I’m looking forward to. 
Thank you for your input.</p>
<p>295 & 395 are offered only in Fall terms, while 296 & 396 in Winter. When my S took his sequence, the weekly p-sets were due on Fridays, and Thursday allnighters were not uncommon amongst those students. </p>
<p>I think my S mentioned that one Prof told the class that as a general rule of thumb, the average # of hours it takes to study/do the homework (outside of lecture time) is 3 hrs/credit. I’m assuming that’s the case for those who stick around to complete the Honors sequence (after the rest have been weeded out, or else, 3 hrs/credit could be too low). I also remember a classmate of his who spent ~30 hrs/wk on 295 p-set (and presumabley still not do well) ended up dropping the class.</p>
<p>Once students cross the 296 threshold successfully, they’ll get invited to the annual Dessert Party just before the start of Winter finals, where all the “Math Beast” undergrads party :).</p>
<p>@parentOf2018
Sounds like it will be an overall interesting experience. The celebrations after the well-earned successes seem rewarding. I believe that the course is a good fit for what I am looking for. I plan to look over some literature on introductory proofs to familiarize myself with proofs and better ready myself for the material. Looking forward to the course. Hopefully, I’ll be able to register for it. :)</p>
<p>Also, have you checked out the EECS 280 diagnostic tool yet? Since I read that your son has 6+ years of programming, I would highly recommend he do so. The project is extremely basic for a seasoned programmer; it mainly involves array manipulation and basic algorithm construction, which I think will be the main focus of EECS 183. Reading the instructions to format the output to what the autograder desires should take longer than writing the code. :D</p>
<p>@WolverineTrader, you could check out some old 295 syllabus or pset samples from one of these Profs here:
<a href=“http://www.math.lsa.umich.edu/~spatzier/295/295.html”>http://www.math.lsa.umich.edu/~spatzier/295/295.html</a>
<a href=“http://www.math.lsa.umich.edu/~kesmith/295.info2010.pdf”>http://www.math.lsa.umich.edu/~kesmith/295.info2010.pdf</a>
<a href=“http://www.math.lsa.umich.edu/~mityab/teaching.html”>http://www.math.lsa.umich.edu/~mityab/teaching.html</a></p>
<p>You can probably get an Inter-Library Loan for the textbook from your local library too to read over the summer, though I don’t know if Prof. DeBacker (who’ll be teaching it this Fall) will actually use the textbook or not. My son’s Prof used his own notes for the class. Each Prof does this sequence a bit differently, but in any case, they only have the dept’s best Profs teaching this sequence :)</p>
<p>Btw, most likely my S won’t be able to check out the 280 diagnostic tool until he’s back in town next week. But it’s good to know that there’s such placement test. Thanks again for the pointer.</p>
<p>@parentOf2018
I have started reviewing from Calculus by Spivak, which I found available for free from the University of Washington website. I’ll solve the problem sets accordingly as I progress through Spivak’s book to get ready for the course. I’ve ordered Elementary Real and Complex Analysis by Georgi E. Shilov, an inexpensive recommended reading I saw previously from one of those syllabi, as well and I will read it for enjoyment once I finish up my current studies. I believe that If I’m able to continue as planned, I’ll use the 295 course to polish up any bad habits I may develop. It’s refreshing to know that I’ll have the department’s best Professors to help me do so. 
Thanks, you’ve been a great help.</p>
<p>All the best to you, @WolverineTrader :)</p>
<p>By the way, I believe you’ll need to discuss this honors sequence with a math advisor during orientation before registering. Even if you are not required to, it’s a good idea to do so.</p>
<p>@wayneandgarth
I plan on doing so. I need departmental permission to register for MATH 295, so I intend to speak with an advisor to discuss the honors sequence and if it is the sequence that is the best fit for me. Thanks for the heads-up.</p>
<p>BTW, I’ve also heard that one can’t automatically register for next class in this sequence without the departmental or instructor’s permission, and that usually means a grade of “A-” or above in the current course. A “B” is considered a failing grade in this sequence (at least, that’s what I heard from the students back when my S took his 295; not sure if that’s still the case right now or not.)</p>
<p>@parentOf2018
Seems strict. I believe that grades are secondary to learning and will be well with strong knowledge of the material, but if that’s the case, I guess that I may have to make an effort to earn a top grade if I enroll in the course. By the way, I previously read that the lowest grade given in the course was a B. Is that what you meant with “B is considered a failing grade”? Don’t know what this implies in terms of competitiveness(i.e. not sure if it’s that every student scores above an 80, or grades of 50-60 are curved to B’s). Would you know anything about this?</p>