<p>"Few people will believe me but while it's incredibly stressful now, in about eight months you'll be looking back at what seemed like a mountain has dwindled into insignificance and you'll feel that way whether you're attending W or another college."</p>
<p>then why brutalize the proccess? ...honestly, does your thought proccess make sense to you? if it does, i have nothing more to say.</p>
<p>and to respectively disagree with dianal, the dad, you dont have to reflect wellesley's admissions office. you're an intelligent adult and i am a highschool student, but that being acknowledged, you are also not the admissions officer that decides on my application. you can not say i am out or in, but merely, give me the facts or the statistics, THAT is the best advice.
YOU, some father who meanders onto this site intermittently, telling me, that YOU are "softening the blow" to my pending rejection letter...is never ever advice. let me be clear about that. you want to get me off the beach alive? dont smoothen your advice because telling me to expect a rejection letter is not advice: it's the philosophy of nihilists, isolationists, and failures. do you know what will get me off the island? encouragement, action, proactivity - I guess we have different ideas of "advice". I am sorry if I have denigrated your life hobby.</p>
<p>AND you are using your daughter and her valued work as your own credential to tell me i am basically rejected. i think "bragging" is a euphemism for that.</p>
<p>Whatever. </p>
<p>Tell you what. You stick around after this year and put in some time. You talk to the students whose were so certain that they'd get into school X, that all there eggs are in one basket, and then are paralyzed when the final decisions remove that option. One person's negativity is another person's realism. One of the biggest failings of students on this site is their overbroad optimism, whether about their own prospects or what they convey to others. I avoid "What Are My Chances" completely because there are so many cases of the blind leading the blind with empty reassurances.</p>
<p>For what it's worth, D, I never said you were rejected. I said to plan as if you were. I am neither a nihilist, an isolationist(?!), nor a failure. Planning to account for negative outcomes is a prudent adult thing to do. Remember that the first time you buy life insurance.</p>
<p>Since my advice to you and DianaL isn't useful to you, I see no point in flogging an expired equine. But just because it offends your sensibilities doesn't invalidate it.</p>
<p>Ciao.</p>
<p>And, no, I cited my own D's experience just to illustrate that I know *** I'm talking about. If you think this is a "hobby," think again.</p>
<p>DianaL, taking your logic, then it's fruitless for you to ask any questions on this board. Admissions doesn't hang out here. About the only person who is here regularly whose advice is unquestionably better, if she has an opinion, is WendyMouse. One of the W dads also comes by sometimes. As for how my D felt when she was rejected by Yale, it was a case of move on and get those other apps out. Get focused on your other choices NOW. Which is exactly the position you should be in. But you don't want to accept that. Fine. No skin off my teeth. Have a nice life.</p>
<p>TheDad--just as a point of interest; did your daughter end up going to Wellesley, or else another LAC? You say that you've come to be 'a believer in women's colleges'. Did this happen before or after her acceptance? I've never really spoken to the parents of Wellesley students (or other schools, actually) about what they think of women's colleges, and I'd be interested to hear what you have to say.</p>
<p>JW, my D wound up going to Smith after being accepted at Smith, Wellesley, and Barnard, turned down at HYS. I started to become a believer during a junior year prospective student's party...this was for Smith, but I don't think W would have been materially different. In aggregate, the 15-20 current students who spoke were some of the best advertising that any college could ask for: bright, articulate, together, etc. The testimony about what they liked & disliked (each was asked to say one of each) was interesting and impressive. But what made me sit up straight...and I was way off to the side of the room and saw D, towards the center with the other prospies, was when one Smith student was comparing her in-class experiences at Smith with those at Amherst, another school in the Five College consortium. She said that Smithies don't hang back in the classroom, like many of the Amherst women did. As it turns out, my D had gotten some flack in high school, even in an AP class, where one of the girls (stereotype: a cheerleader who was dating a football player) asked her, "Can't you at least try to fit in?" By which she meant, not participate so much in class, let the guys be prominent, etc. </p>
<p>A lot of girls feel pressure, particularly starting in middle school, to dumb themselves down to make themselves more socially appealing, particularly with the guys. My D was having none of it but I can't say the pressure never bothered her as being unfair. As I watched her when this one Smithie was speaking, it was like watching a cartoon character get a lightbulb over its head for "great idea!" </p>
<p>Smith went up towards the top of her list of potential colleges and first Barnard and then Wellesley were added. (Nothing against W save for the fact that D was/is a serious ballet dancer, had been doing it 18-20 hours/week in junior & senior years, and the ballet at W isn't nearly as strong as Smith or Barnard. Nonetheless, W ultimately was her second choice.) </p>
<p>She had some of the usual concerns: guys, small town (she'd wanted big city), what about all-estrogen 24/7, etc. She talked to a lot of students, plus a few adult grads of womens colleges. She did two overnights at Smith and one at W and satisfied herself that both would be fine.</p>
<p>Fast forward through her first 2-1/2 years. She loves the peer group. In high school, of her graduating class of 750, maybe 40-60 were her academic peers. At Smith (and it would apply to W as well), as she puts it, not everybody is my best friend but I respect almost everybody...there are very few slackers here. As for guys, she would like to have more of them around but says that she's working so hard she doesn't have time for a serious relationship anyway. This is her junior year away, split between D.C. and Budapest, and she's enjoying have more guys around. She does like the 2-1 guy:girl ratio in the Math program in Budapest. Btw, she picked up a t-shirt when she was visiting W, the one that says "MIT Men: the odds are good but the goods are odd," LOL.</p>
<p>She has already made several friends at Smith that I think will be of the lifelong variety and while this happens everywhere, it seems to be a particularly notable phenomenon at womens colleges.</p>
<p>But the acid tests for me are the classroom experiences and personal development and the womens college thing seems to excel at both, fostering intellectual drive that isn't compromised and developing leadership out the gazoo...women run <em>everything</em>. </p>
<p>D has said that if H or Y now came calling, she'd say "No thanks." Not all women will click at a womens college but for those who do, they seem to foster a great degree of loyalty. (See also, the networking of Smith & W alumnae, something I've already seen in action and is impressive.)</p>
<p>If guys are important to the student, you'll probably have to work harder at it, particularly if you want a serious relationship. Though I heard one young woman say that the best thing about a womens college is that the guys are around when you want 'em, out of your hair when you don't. And occasionally the, ah, estrogen-saturated atmosphere can contribute to periodic outbursts of drama. </p>
<p>That's the quick thumbnail...anything in particular?</p>
<p>That's interesting, TheDad. A few years ago I would have denied that being a vocal participant in class caused me any problems with my classmates--or at least that those problems were related to being a girl--but I have come to realize that that really isn't true. People do seem, if not openly rude about it (like that cheerleader who reprimanded your D...I would have some serious words for her--I hope your D struck back a bit!) uneasy with me as vocal and, I guess, fiesty as I am. Case in point: I look at my teacher's as equals (not really as superiors), and although ultimately I understand/respect their position of authority, I have no problems with participating in some (good-natured!) bantering/verbal sparring with them. My classmates find this most remarkable when the teacher is male--because, I can't help but thinking, a girl/woman really shouldn't "challenge" a grown man like that. I suppose I could be reading to much into it, but I kind of doubt it. I had noticed that other highly intelligent girls are not as outspoken in class as their male counterparts, in general, but I chalked it up to quieter personalities differences. I still think that that is some of it, but I have also begun to see the "feminine delicacy" aspect of it as well. </p>
<p>Growing up in a family where people are looked upon as equals and no one ever tried to put me in my place, it took me a long time to admit that not everyone thought like that. I definitely can't be intimidated by anyone, but I can see the benefit of women's colleges in this way.</p>
<p>No, nothing in particular--I went to an all-girls high school, and then on to Wellesley, so I've been around single-sex school advocates for much of my life. I simply realized that, having always been surrounded by my fellow peers, I've never actually heard a parental point of view on it, much less a male parental one. </p>
<p>And yes, there are strange (and often very random) outbursts of drama; though I've noticed they tend to originate from the weekly plot twists of Grey's Anatomy : ) , and not so much boydrama. Because boydrama is one word. Thanks for your thoughtful response!</p>
<p>Advantagious, D had an advantage in that she was always encouraged to challenge her father...she was brought up to defer to nobody just because of sex, rank, whatever. Polite, yes; defer, no. D will banter/spar with anyone, though she might be prudent and pick moments that are more politic then others...but none of that would enter into the classroom. Like you, I think she sees her profs as peers. Peers with superior and knowledge, but peers on an essential level. (I don't think she did more than roll her eyes at the cheerleader...having been a recipient on numerous occasions, I can tell you that she's a first-class eyeroller.)</p>
<p>Side note: I have this habit of taking, ah, colorful liberties...well, interesting outright fabrications that are silly or make for a good story, in explaining the background of a scientific or historical event or fact. D was about 8 when she turned to TheMom and said, "Is this true?" </p>
<p>A final thought on the peer thing: I think one of the best pieces of advice that I've ever given D is about evaluating guys she's interested in long-term: watch how he treats putative non-peers: children, waitresses, postal clerks, and the like. If he treats them well, you know he'll treat you well. If he doesn't treat them well, wait for the shoe to drop.</p>
<p>JW: not just boydrama (or girldrama) in D's experience, though I've heard an occasional bit of envy will richochet around the House. Just drama in general, prompted by almost anything from roommate squabbles to who did what/why/when.</p>
<p>One aspect I really like about womens colleges, which I also suspect is present in many LAC's, is the way that intellectual life and discussions continue outside the classroom. One observation I heard was, "If you're not engaged in something, you start to feel guilty." And I've watched two girls console a third that a B+ isn't grounds for despair while they would go through anguish when they receive one themselves.</p>
<p>I also think there's a value in the environment that, not that womens colleges are cloistered sanctuaries, the whole sports/alcohol-fueled social scene that dominates many schools isn't a factor. I also believe that you're much less likely to receive an unwelcome same-sex sexual advance at a women's college than you are to receive an uncomfortable and unwelcome aggressive opposite-sex advance at a co-ed school...some, particularly some parents, get their knickers in a twist about the "L" word.</p>
<p>By the way, if you want other parental perspectives, drop in on the Smith forum. There's a thread titled "Why Womens Colleges" and several parents, including other dads, have made contributions. Wellesley students are welcome there. ;)</p>
<p>TheDad: I thank you for your concern that I might fail to open options. I guess I always naturally assumed that just about everybody applies to safeties as I have applied to just about 4 out of the 13 schools I applied to. I would be content attending about 2 of them...Though it is true that it is hard to find a safety one can be happy with because there's always the prospective of better.</p>
<p>My other options are open and the balance may/is tipping/balancing out as I receive hefty scholarships from other schools. </p>
<p>If I planned to be rejected as you stated, then I would automatically give up. That's not something a persistent applicant would do. Which would Wellesley prefer? I'm simply looking for other options.</p>
<p>I didn't state that your opinions should be completely invalidated just that they should be taken with a grain of salt. Just as mine should be.</p>
<p>"A final thought on the peer thing: I think one of the best pieces of advice that I've ever given D is about evaluating guys she's interested in long-term: watch how he treats putative non-peers: children, waitresses, postal clerks, and the like. If he treats them well, you know he'll treat you well. If he doesn't treat them well, wait for the shoe to drop." This quote makes me smile because it too has been some of the best advice my mother has given to me in regards to the opposite sex.</p>
<p>"One aspect I really like about womens colleges, which I also suspect is present in many LAC's, is the way that intellectual life and discussions continue outside the classroom." It's probably true that an all woman's college fosters these conversations but there are co-ed schools that have an environment that do the same. I wouldn't count out all other schools simply because of this reason. But nevertheless, you list many other legitimate reasons for choosing an all women's college. </p>
<p>Though it's too late to apply to Smith, I'm curious as to how how W and Smith differ. It may seem like I don't care for your advice but, I've learned from other threads that often times parents and other applicants can be so very wrong. I'm simply saying that we should not take your advice as the cold hard truth especially when you don't necessarily know all the details...but once again thanks for the time and effort you put into these forums.</p>
<p>DostoevskyCA:I don't think he was bragging over his daughter because she received a "likely" to validate his credibility. It's much more that he's been on this site for 4 cycles so he does note trends. I think he was simply somewhat surprised that she was rejected outright from Yale with those statistics. -shrugs- that was just my take.</p>
<p>Dianal, talking about differences between Smith and W can lead to flame wars. :)</p>
<p>One of the reasons D chose Smith over W was the performing arts: at W, they're more EC activities, at Smith they're more integral to the overall academic program. She plays an instrument seriously and is in both orchestra and wind ensemble as well as advanced ballet and participates in senior choreography projects for Dance majors. D knew a girl whose older sister went to W and the description of the ballet was very underwhelming. Ditto orchestra. D also liked Northampton a <em>lot</em> more than the town of Wellesley and, given the time penalty incurred by the train, found the proximity to Boston to be more illusory than anything else. As it is, she's made it for long weekends to both Boston & NYC from Smith.</p>
<p>There are some stereotypes which I think may have grains of truth to them: W is a little more tightly wound & pre-professional, even careerist in outlook. Smith is more laid back but more effervescent. The whole L-word scene is more open at Smith, uncomfortably so for some, no big deal for others. (D is straight but her "little sister" is gay, one of her best friends is a switch-hitter (hey, it doubles your chance for a date on Friday night), and she's more comfortable in the "out there" environment despite being one of the more socially conservative young women herself (no piercings other than one in each ear, no tattoos...I mean, c'mon). </p>
<p>The Smith abroad and internship programs are very robust...it's not that you can't at W but Smith has 2/3 of the juniors Away and there's a lot of infrastructure, including $$$, supporting it. And, well, a negative perception about W: she felt there were more materialistic status-conscious women at W than Smith. There are women from very wealthy families at both schools but there was a difference in the social scene. Finally, she just loved the House system at Smith and is fiercely loyal to her House...the W living is more conventional.</p>
<p>One thing that made a deep impression was when visiting junior year. She took a ballet class, sat in on another class, and then met with the orchestra director. In contrast with Columbia, which had been #1 on paper and where she wound up not even applying, and whose orchestra director had e-mailed back and said "Get admitted to Columbia, then come to the audition and we can talk," the orchestra director had made time to meet with her on the day we were visiting. When he found out that we weren't leaving for New Haven and NYC until the next day, he turned to D and invited her to come back that evening and sit with her section on stage, getting to know & talk to some of the women while they rehearsed. An example of what I perceive as Smith's general "What can we do to make this better for you?" attitude to <em>lots</em> of things.</p>
<p>And for all the reasons one can objectively cite, it just came down to the fact that she was more comfortable with Smith. If a young woman felt more comfortable at W, I'd say the same thing: sometimes you gotta go with your gut. There was an almost audible "click" the moment she stepped on campus for her last overnight, the day after she had an overnight at W. I managed to keep my lip completely button until she came up with her decision, and that was no small temptation. If you want to engage melodrama, I'll note that when I picked her up in the morning after her overnight at W, it was a sullen, gloomy, drizzly day. I gently interrogated her about one thing or another as we drove down the pike towards Noho and all her answers were fine but she was deep in thought. Halfway to NoHo, we burst out from the gray skies into blue skies and brilliant sunshine. I don't ordinarily believe in signs and portents but it was right out of a Frank Capra movie. But I kept my lips tight about that one too.</p>
<p>You're right that some things I cited about womens colleges apply to other LAC's as well. However, I think there are a number of leading LAC's where those aspects are not present to the same degree...and no, I don't think it prudent to name names.</p>
<p>TheDad: Actually, I didn't mean ONLY other LAC colleges. There are even tech schools like Caltech that also have that environment (Sorry, I've been doing an insane amount of research on that school after my father shoved that school on my list). But it tends to be more true with an all women's school vs. a public school.</p>
<p>I think at least for me, it was important to thoroughly find as much as you can about each prospective school (yes! it is a lot of work) you may find a lot of stereotypes defeated.</p>
<p>I think a lot of girl's want that general attitude of "What can do to make this better for you?" as a major factor of which school to go to. I know my interviewer also commented on that for Wellesley surprisingly vs Smith but I guess it's just what happens at the moment. I think that's why I was surprised about Wellesley's perfunctory response to my call, I really received this vibe that they would have more of that attitude (but to prevent another argument, I'm sure they're too busy to do so).</p>
<p>I'm really glad to find another parent that puts their child's opinion first instead of shoving them towards a school or even just a name.</p>
<p>Thanks for this comprehensive note, TheDad!</p>
<p>I know a few students in my class at Wellesley who were either deferred ED or received a "possible" letter for EE. What they both did was send in more recommendations from teachers, mentors, or other adults that knew them well. They say that persistence is the key! If Wellesley is your absolute first choice school, let them know that! It's a slim chance for "possibles" to get in, but at least there's a chance, and there are many, many examples at Wellesley today of people who persisted and ended up getting in. Don't give up!</p>
<p>I haven't been following this thread much, but I noticed I was mentioned and should probably throw in my two cents.</p>
<p>I was shocked at how frank TheDad was in his response, but he's absolutely right. You can hope against hope that getting a possible means that you are one of the lucky few how are not rejected, but it's only a dream and a less reassuring one at that. Can you send more stuff in. Probably. Will it help? Who knows? I'm not on that committee but I got the impression that pointless supplemental material made the Harvard Adcom kinda mad since they had so many people to deal with.</p>
<p>Getting rejected twice sucks. Does having a possible now soften the blow or just make it worse? Probably a bit of both depending on your personality and how you feel about the school.</p>
<p>For the past three summers I've applied to research internships and had to deal with the agony of an application process similar to college (get transcripts, write essays, relevant ecs, resumes, get 2+recs) and about as stressful. I know what it's like not knowing, dreaming and hoping and even hoping without expectation just because it's fun to imagine getting that job in Hawaii even though they never wrote you back. Even worse is the fact that not having a early rejection means that you are probably an alternate if the first choice doesn't want that job and then getting rejected eventually two weeks later. It isn't a fun process and it's a lot of second guessing: enough that it interferes with you actually functioning as a person. I haven't forgotten what these applications are like and I understand what you are going through.</p>
<p>Assumption of rejection isn't giving up hope or giving up Wellesley. I would venture to say that most students who get in after a possible, didn't do anything. Write a letter or a send reference if only to give yourself the satisfaction that if the blow does fall and the rejection does come through that you did all you could and the decision didn't depend on some silly letter some other that girls on an internet message board suggested sending. They will make the same decision whether or not you spent the last six weeks thinking about Wellesley when you went to bed, on the bus, while taking that math test or in your spare time on CC (that could be better spent to be honest - me included). </p>
<p>What you have given up by giving up hope is your insanity. I can't imagine you will stop worrying about the other schools you don't know the outcome to, but please, take back some of your senior year of high school by living the month of March in the moment.</p>
<p>thanks for the advice Wendymouse, although it is easier said than done, i'm looking at other colleges at the moment </p>
<p>does anybody know when we need to send an extra rec by>?</p>
<p>i actually have the same question as Haberdashery. I would like one of my professors to send in a recc but would like to give her a deadline...it's coming up soon...i would assume just asap? haha.</p>
<p>Anyways, thank you wall_flower and wendymouse. i will continue my persistence and at the same time, try to detach - realize a rejection is more than possible. i will say 'rejection' to myself a couple of times until i stop jerking at the word haha...</p>
<p>dianal, i never accused the dad of "bragging". put on the defense after a dagger through the heart, i merely said he was taking his D's credentials to say a very strong statement that i felt he was unfit to decide. however, the dad, i love love that you are so close and commited to your daughter - and know about what she likes and dislikes - her strengths and weaknesses - her wants. it is truly wonderful. it is also wonderful that you allowed your daughter to completely follow her own path when it came to the college decision. you seem like a wonderful and devoted father. </p>
<p>the wall_flower, i have a question for you (and to anyone else who can answer this). i sent in some of my poetry, an essay, and a print of a large-scale painting i've been working on for 6 months. I also sent in a tiny, concise letter with it that basically said wellesley is my first choice, for these main reasons, and why i will be an asset to the campus community. it was short so it wouldn't be burdensome. i can pm it to you if you wouldnt mind reading it.
should i look into getting a teacher to send in a recc as well?</p>
<p>oh, and wendyhouse, thank you for sharing your experiences trying to get the internship. i truly felt like you understood and it was incredibly kind of you to share that with us. I will take your advice with gratitude. thank you again.</p>
<p>Yup, you can pm me your letter, and getting an extra recommendation couldn't hurt at all. Especially if the teacher knows how much you want to go to Wellesley.</p>
<p>Just so y'all know, I had my counselor call Wellesley about a week ago to ask them about what my application was "lacking" and if I could do anything to improve my chance, and they told her that they had already reevaluated my "possibly" decision at that point so it would be useless to send anything else in. It's probably too late to send supplemental materials.</p>