"Men who express concerns about women are whiners or misogynists"

Student Lounge College Life
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<p>"Notice how most people say women are 'emotional' -- most people, most men (except the snippy, insulting ones) don't call women whiny, whimpering, childlike, crybabies who need to grow up and stop acting like a little girl. We simply respect their different way of communicating their feelings."</p>

<p>You should go look up that thread about how girls always have some sort of issue. It seems like the general agreement there is that girls talk to much about their lives and their emotions and should to suck it up a little.</p>

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<p>Jaso9n2 - I've had "friends" tell me to stop b-tching... about things like tumors. (As in, "Wow, I'm really scared and it's hard to get my doctor to order tests for me.") I figured out that they weren't friends and haven't spoken to them since.</p>

<p>My advice is to start hanging around different people. Women understand when their guy friends complain. Most of my friends are male; they know that they can vent to me. Most of them also don't tolerate "friends" who refuse to listen to their problems. Acquire female friends.</p>

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<p>Why is it so hard for you to read and comprehend the entirety of my posts instead of picking at one sentence, blowing it out of proportion, and insulting me because I don't share all of your opinions?</p>

<p>You seem to think that women have free run to complain about whatever they please and no one will care what they do or say, simply because they're women. No one is really 'allowed' to complain about anything and have it be acceptable. It is unacceptable to complain, to whine, to express discontent, however you want to phrase it...period. See the drama thread for what happens when girls are not positive all the time.</p>

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You should go look up that thread about how girls always have some sort of issue. It seems like the general agreement there is that girls talk to much about their lives and their emotions and should to suck it up a little.

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<p>I know, but that's just what people are saying on this message board. I don't think girls would be as willing to be emotional as they are if they knew most people (men and women) would just dismiss their concerns.</p>

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Jaso9n2 - I've had "friends" tell me to stop b-tching... about things like tumors. (As in, "Wow, I'm really scared and it's hard to get my doctor to order tests for me.") I figured out that they weren't friends and haven't spoken to them since.

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<p>Not to sound heartless, but I have to question the validity of this story. Were you discussing this at a time where everyone else is trying to enjoy themselves and moping around and being fussy about it, or did you just confide in them in a serious, not-so-complaining way about it and they just told you to "suck it up." And was that all they said. I say this because, whether or not you think stereotypes are fair or not, I know people tend to paraphrase key points in their stories and re-write history a little bit. </p>

<p>If they told you that, it was probably because you came off as being more interested in complaining about the problem than fixing it. I seriously doubt your "friends" told you to stop b*tching and nothing more if you were trying to discuss a tumor with them. I just doubt that.</p>

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Why is it so hard for you to read and comprehend the entirety of my posts instead of picking at one sentence, blowing it out of proportion, and insulting me because I don't share all of your opinions?</p>

<p>You seem to think that women have free run to complain about whatever they please and no one will care what they do or say, simply because they're women. No one is really 'allowed' to complain about anything and have it be acceptable. It is unacceptable to complain, to whine, to express discontent, however you want to phrase it...period. See the drama thread for what happens when girls are not positive all the time.

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<p>Isn't that what you just did to me? Picked one sentence to disagree with? And my issue isn't that you disagree; it's that you grasp at straws, it seems, when you try to explain why you disagree. It's almost like you can't let me have one point without trying to refute, no matter how weak your argument actually is. Because let's face it, "be a man/suck it up/sac up" is WAAAAAAY more prevalent than "think about the starving children in Africa..." I'm not saying the latter has never been uttered by anyone ever, but for every one time the latter is said, there are thirty of the former being said. I'm not blaming women for this, and that may be why you're so defensive, but I can't and won't respect you or your opinion if you're going to be that transparently contradictory. It makes you seem like you're only interested in being argumentative and closed-minded. </p>

<p>And before you mention it, no, I don't have to be open-minded to your weak arguments mean't to dismiss mine. I believe in being equally open-minded, but if you mentioned something like "well, girls might not be implored to keep a lid on our emotions because of our gender, but I think a lot of girls feel chastised and manipulated by their emotions. I think that it's a mixed blessing for guys because while they have to keep a tight reign on their emotions, and that isn't entirely fair, at least they don't have to worry about someone so easily manipulating them because of their emotions." I could've bought something like that. But throwing out some line that Moms use to make their kids eat brussel sprouts is grasping at straws and transparent...and I'm not open-minded to that.</p>

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<p>My mother doesn't use the 'starving children' line on me if I try to discuss concerns with her, she merely explains that they are all my fault and then goes and gossips to the women she works with about them. My friends tell me that, if they respond at all, when I do things such as trying to explain to them why I feel depressed at the moment. I am not at all surprised that ariesathena has been told to stop whining about medical concerns.</p>

<p>The point, since you seem to have missed it, is that the "men are whiners" part of your argument can be explained by society's prevailing idea that all people who complain about anything are whiners. Nothing to do with them being men or with them talking about women, just that they're unhappy about something. I am not grasping at straws simply because you happen to disagree with this point. You seem to be intent on finding situations where men have it oh-so-much harder than women, and then you refuse to listen when someone points out that perhaps both sexes have an equally difficult time.</p>

<p>I would never say that girls feel "chastised and manipulated by their emotions" because I do not believe that. Chastised for being unhappy with something perhaps, but then everyone is. I am not sure where being manipulated comes from. I am assuming that you do believe this, because you said you would agree with it if someone said it. So you are in essence saying that you will only agree that someone has a valid point if you already agree with that point?</p>

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<p>Jason, there's a reason I'm no longer friends with them. I didn't mention it very often - only when key events happened (i.e. doctor found lump; radiologist, over sonographer's objections, dismissed it as being a "teenage problem;" normal doc, after two months, finally approves new ultrasounds). The insensitivity was pretty unbelievable, and not a little bit cruel. </p>

<p>You can doubt it, but it happened and I don't speak to most of them anymore. The conversation, word for word, went something like, "Aries, what's wrong with you?" "Yeah, I'm sorry that I'm a little spaced... I had a doc's appt today, and she found a lump in my breast." "Oh, you'll be fine, don't worry." "No, you don't understand - the docs are worried - they rearranged an ultrasound schedule to get me in at the end of the week instead of the normal three months." "No, you're fine. How do you think I feel - my boyfriend is leaving to join the Navy in two months?"</p>

<p>It was shocking, considering that, when I told my father the same thing, he turned the colour of ash. (Sure, I was a wreck at that point - T plus two hours and thinking nothing but "Oh god, let me be okay, I'm 19," but really!)</p>

<p>I'm not sure how you would really propose to tell your friends, "Yeah, I'm a little out of it because my doctor found a lump in my breast today." You're going to rain on someone's day, no matter how you say it.</p>

<p>Again, I found new friends. Never really spoke of after the second or third time; stopped hanging out with them; then quietly went back to college and never spoke to them again.</p>

<p>Girls do shut each other down in strange ways, and they can be really into the alpha-female of the pack thing. The betas don't get to have problems, let alone complain about them.</p>

<p>Which is why I say that having good friends matters a lot. One of my best friends likes to say that there's an unconditional clause in the friendship contract.</p>

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<p>
[quote]

The point, since you seem to have missed it, is that the "men are whiners" part of your argument can be explained by society's prevailing idea that all people who complain about anything are whiners. Nothing to do with them being men or with them talking about women, just that they're unhappy about something. I am not grasping at straws simply because you happen to disagree with this point. You seem to be intent on finding situations where men have it oh-so-much harder than women, and then you refuse to listen when someone points out that perhaps both sexes have an equally difficult time.

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<p>Well, they don't. I'm not going to get into it (because this has been discussed), but it's patently untrue that society doesn't tolerate complaining PERIOD. You really have a lot to learn...even though you think the other way around. You need more friends that are males. I don't see how you can finesse phrases like "suck it up" and "be a man" as being mean't for people and not guys. That's astounding to me. This has nothing to do with what argument I validate...it has everything to do with your denial and lack of understanding.</p>

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You can doubt it, but it happened and I don't speak to most of them anymore. The conversation, word for word, went something like, "Aries, what's wrong with you?" "Yeah, I'm sorry that I'm a little spaced... I had a doc's appt today, and she found a lump in my breast." "Oh, you'll be fine, don't worry." "No, you don't understand - the docs are worried - they rearranged an ultrasound schedule to get me in at the end of the week instead of the normal three months." "No, you're fine. How do you think I feel - my boyfriend is leaving to join the Navy in two months?"

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<p>That really sucks. You were right to discontinue contact with that girl. Even though she might have thought her problem outweighed yours (it didn't), she still didn't have to be a b*tch about it.</p>

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Well, they don't. I'm not going to get into it (because this has been discussed), but it's patently untrue that society doesn't tolerate complaining PERIOD. You really have a lot to learn...even though you think the other way around. You need more friends that are males. I don't see how you can finesse phrases like "suck it up" and "be a man" as being mean't for people and not guys. That's astounding to me. This has nothing to do with what argument I validate...it has everything to do with your denial and lack of understanding.

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<p>This has nothing to do with anything I said in the paragraph you quoted. Why do I need more male friends? I do not like being on and/or ditched by the people I consider my friends. What does that have to do with anything? I never mentioned anything about phrases like "be a man" being "mean't" for anyone other than men, I don't know where you got that whole tirade from. </p>

<p>I really hate to repeat myself because it gets tiresome and makes my posts rather long, but I have apparently not stumbled on the magical combination of words that makes you actually understand my point. Let's look at your title statement: "Men who express concerns about women are whiners or misogynists". Let's shorten "express concerns" to "complain" for the sake of simplicity, and ignore the misogynists part because that relates to something very specific. You get "men who complain are whiners". Is this true? Yes. Why is it true? Because people who complain are whiners, and men are people. Get it? It's not really that hard to understand.</p>

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<p>Time for a rant.......</p>

<p>People who have been on this board for more than a week or so probably know already that I'm a guy. I'm also straight. If you're new this was to clear that up.</p>

<p>Now for the rant. Fasten your seat belts, boys and girls.</p>

<p>Although I am a guy and have known that forever, I also have said on a consistent basis for years that GUYS SUCK. In fact, I have said this since 1996 when I found myself sitting at the girls lunch table instead of the guys simply because I found the guys to be immature, stupid, and downright cruel to anyone who wasn't "good enough" for them.</p>

<p>This third grade mentality of guys evolved over the years. Now most of the guys I've encountered will write you off for similar reasons. Although the ManLaws.com site might be stereotyping a bit too much, it's all too true at the same time. And I've found 85% of college age guys to be like the ones who follow the man laws on that website.</p>

<p>One of the big no-no's? Displaying any sort of concern for women. Now I can trace back to September 1989 on this one. I was walking into preschool that day and a girl fell down the steps. I ran over to make sure she was okay and felt so horrible when she started crying as a result of a large scrape to her knee.</p>

<p>Fast forward to 2006. I'm still like this. Okay, so maybe it's not falling down steps and it's more like counseling someone when they're feeeling down (the falling is more abstact than literal now).</p>

<p>There have been some folks who have disapproved of this behavior. 100% of them are guys and 100% of them are within two years of my age.</p>

<p>And it's not just caring for women and being there as a friend for them. I have been chastised because I don't drink and am completely against pornography of any type. Never drank or watched a dirty film and never plan on doing either. Keep in mind I'm less than a year away from my 21st birthday now and I am already planning on celebrating it alcohol free. Wait, that's not a plan, that's an "I WILL" celebrate it alcohol free.</p>

<p>Now about the whole "whiner" thing. Some people seem to confuse a simple state of dissatisfaction with intentional whining. Whining to me is when someone is purposely trying to be a pest.</p>

<p>I am going to list two examples of false whining here, one literal and one not so literal.</p>

<h1>1: My buddies are standing around discussing politics. I was off getting some water and join them after the conversation had begun. My friend says very politely that she disagreees with another guy. He's okay at first, stating his counterpoint, but then she defends it some more. He accuses her of being a "whiner" who "wants her own way" and is a "spoiled brat". To me that's just a ton of immaturity on that guy's part--and he's normally not like that unless he's debating a girl.</h1>

<h1>2: My friend has her third surgery of the school year. My other buddy insists that she is faking it and that she wants attention because "she's just a teacher's pet who won't get anywhere". Now I like this guy too and he normally doesn't say stuff like that, only to certain girls.</h1>

<p>Here is proof that guys have something against women.</p>

<p>Also, men are good at deliberate whining, sometimes jokingly (like when my buddy said "eew, he has mustard on his sandwich, I don't want to sit next to him!") but often also the kind they accuse girls of.</p>

<p>I know my arguments are a bit disjointed here (I'm running on an empty stomach right now so my brain's not 100% as I write this) but you get the point. There are a few nice guys out there who respect women, and they should be praised. The rest of them need to go back to Ethics 101.</p>

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<p>Oh my god, Jason. Let the woman-bashing go. Please.</p>

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<p>
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1: My buddies are standing around discussing politics. I was off getting some water and join them after the conversation had begun. My friend says very politely that she disagreees with another guy. He's okay at first, stating his counterpoint, but then she defends it some more. He accuses her of being a "whiner" who "wants her own way" and is a "spoiled brat". To me that's just a ton of immaturity on that guy's part--and he's normally not like that unless he's debating a girl.

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<p>I can't be the only one that sees some similarities to Jason's debating style here. ;) (Women who disagree with him are not spoiled, but stupid liars).</p>

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2: My friend has her third surgery of the school year. My other buddy insists that she is faking it and that she wants attention because "she's just a teacher's pet who won't get anywhere". Now I like this guy too and he normally doesn't say stuff like that, only to certain girls.

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<p>I had a guy do this to me once, sort of. He's listened to some things that I have said to him and read some things in my online journal, and gone and decided that all my so-called "problems" are all my fault and the only reason I tell anyone about them is because I am an "attention whore". I guess he'd say it to other girls as well because he went far enough to announce to a group that all people who have journals are attention whores. I didn't want any attention or pity or whatever, I just wanted someone to talk to. It made me feel better temporarily until he decided to insult me, and then it made me feel worse than I had before I'd started out.</p>

<p>I guess this brings up a point about expressing "concerns for" and "concerns about". I took "concerns about" to basically mean someone has a problem with something and wants to complain about it. I guess 'concern for' would fall under having feelings in general, which is decidedly un-manly.</p>

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I can't be the only one that sees some similarities to Jason's debating style here. (Women who disagree with him are not spoiled, but stupid liars).

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<p>Oh please. I respect the fact you disagree, but I don't respect your reasoning. There's a difference. </p>

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I guess this brings up a point about expressing "concerns for" and "concerns about". I took "concerns about" to basically mean someone has a problem with something and wants to complain about it. I guess 'concern for' would fall under having feelings in general, which is decidedly un-manly.

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Eh. There's a layer of cynicism that can't be dismissed here and that is, a lot of guys show "concern for" girls to get in good with them (not out of genuine concern), and a lot of girls LOVE to milk sympathy. Of course I'm wrong because children are starving in Africa...</p>

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There have been some folks who have disapproved of this behavior. 100% of them are guys and 100% of them are within two years of my age.

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<p>I know what you mean, but could it be possible that these guys think your concern for women is really a bad attempt at kissing their ass so they will like you? I'm not accusing you of this, just asking. Again, this is the duality of specific, personal anecdotes. There are more than one way to take a situation</p>

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<h1>1: My buddies are standing around discussing politics. I was off getting some water and join them after the conversation had begun. My friend says very politely that she disagreees with another guy. He's okay at first, stating his counterpoint, but then she defends it some more. He accuses her of being a "whiner" who "wants her own way" and is a "spoiled brat". To me that's just a ton of immaturity on that guy's part--and he's normally not like that unless he's debating a girl.

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<p>This is why I hate personal anecdotes. There are more than one way to interpret anything and that goes for everyone. Notice I haven't given one personal anecdote yet.</p>

<p>Because just like it's possible the guy is a blowhard who doesn't know how to handle someone disagreeing with him, he could've mistaken her "politeness" as being smug or patronizing. And did she insult him at all? If you had seen my other thread, girls would come in and say "Jason you're ignorant and immature and socially awkward" as if that isn't an insult. Did he feel insulted first?</p>

<p>I'm not discrediting your story, because I don't know what happened, but there are two ways to take these personal anecdotes. That's why sometimes generalities are better.</p>

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Oh please. I respect the fact you disagree, but I don't respect your reasoning. There's a difference.

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<p>And you don't respect my reasoning because anyone who disagrees with you is clearly and idiot and has illogical thinking, weak arguments, whatever other insults you threw about in the previous thread. Don't even pretend you don't do this. Every time someone has a point you can't counter, you just insult them instead. </p>

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I'm not discrediting your story, because I don't know what happened, but there are two ways to take these personal anecdotes. That's why sometimes generalities are better.

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<p>People use personal ancedotes because they are based in solid fact. Generalizations, on the other hand, are always a guess. Sometimes a well-educated guess, sometimes not. I guess you have never heard the phrase, "all generalizations are false?" They cannot be proven and they weaken arguments unless you can provide a string of fact-based personal ancedotes to back them up...that's why most people avoid them.</p>

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And you don't respect my reasoning because anyone who disagrees with you is clearly and idiot and has illogical thinking, weak arguments, whatever other insults you threw about in the previous thread. Don't even pretend you don't do this. Every time someone has a point you can't counter, you just insult them instead.

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No, I don't respect your reasoning because you pulled it out of your ass. I don't respect your reasoning because you're not trying to argue my point, you're just trying to marginalize it so I don't have one to begin with. I don't respect your reasoning because, um, it isn't reasoning. It has nothing to do with what the OP says and you're just trying to stake your claim in this here discussion by coming up with any BS excuse you can think of. </p>

<p>You might think that I'm just saying this because you disagree, but that's not the case. Whenever someone has to go off in a completely direction to make a point about something they've not acknowledged, that's how you know they're more interested in begging the question than arguing any points made.</p>

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People use personal ancedotes because they are based in solid fact. Generalizations, on the other hand, are always a guess.

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<p>See? This is a perfect example of what I mean. You're too ignorant to discuss anything with me. Because both of those sentences are wrong. Personal anecdotes that someone relays to you are just as subjective and generalizations. It is possible to lie, embellish, and misinterpret something that has actually happened just like it's possible to lie, embellish, and misinterpret a stereotype or generalization.</p>

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They cannot be proven and they weaken arguments unless you can provide a string of fact-based personal ancedotes to back them up...that's why most people avoid them.

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<p>...and you just contradicted yourself. And if "most people avoid them" they're wrong. All of them. They're wrong. Yup, I said it. Personal anecdotes are more concrete by definition, but this is the Internet...people can lie out of their asses and who would know? People could embellish certain parts of their story to "win" the argument.</p>

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<p>What I say has nothing to do with your original post, hmm. Well let's see. In the original post, you ask whether we agree with what your friend has said (personal ancedote alert!), which is: "Men who express concerns about women are whiners or misogynists", and you ask why or why not we agree or disagree.</p>

<p>[begin repeat post]</p>

<p>I say yes, that can sort of be said to be true following this breakdown: 1) when men "express concerns", they are in essence complaining about something; 2) when men are complaining about women, they are said to be whiners, because 3) when men complain about anything, they are said to be whiners, because 4) when anyone complains about anything, he or she is said to be a whiner. </p>

<p>[end repeat post]</p>

<p>Explain to me how this does not relate to the original post, because I don't see how it doesn't.</p>

<p>Your "friend's" quote, by the way, is a personal ancedote, one which you have based an entire argument off of.</p>

<p>If you're going to assume that everything everyone says on the internet is a lie, why bother even talking to anyone? I guess I can't speak for you, but I am honest with everything I say. Just because you disagree with what I say does not mean that I am lying...I still don't see how you keep coming to this conclusion.</p>

<p>And would you please stop insulting me, calling me a liar, saying I pull things out of my ass, make excuses, etc. I am not lying, and it's just childish. You are a civilized adult, are you not?</p>

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<p>He's not my friend. He's a guy in my Psychology class.</p>

<p>It's not a personal anecdote of mine nor his, really. He made a statement in conjunction to what we were talking about.</p>

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3) when men complain about anything, they are said to be whiners, because 4) when anyone complains about anything, he or she is said to be a whiner.

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<p>And I say that these are wrong. Women are said to be emotional when they complain, this guy thinks that men are considered to be whiners, not emotional, when they complain. </p>

<p>Being a "whiner" is a defective trait, being emotional is not. </p>

<p>It's that string of logic that I take issue with concerning you. Men and women aren't treated equally in a lot of instances...and if you're smart, you know that. Just like the usual "when a guy hooks up with a lot of girls, he's congratulated, when a girl hooks up with a lot of guys, she's a whore" example that gets bandied out sometimes. This is true as well, IMO: when a guy has concerns about anything, he's a whiner or if his complaints are about women, he's a misogynist, but anything a woman complains about just makes her emotional. It doesn't make her defective.</p>

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<p>Actually when people call someone emotional that is not a positive statement (most of the time). IMO it is just another way of saying whiner. Dismissing someone as emotional is saying they lack control over their emotions and can't think clearly. I know emotional can be used as a good thing but usually it means somebody is "drama" or too sensitive.</p>

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<p>Yeah, I've never heard of "emotional" not having a negative connotation. Isn't that why everyone makes fun of the emo kids? Plus it only fits a certain type of complaint...no one would call me "emotional" for complaining about, say, the fact that a repairman left my fridge in the middle of my kitchen. They would call me a whiner, though.</p>