<p>Hi I'm new to this website, and I was wondering if anyone could offer suggestions regarding my college decision. I was accepted early action to Notre Dame and also to Michigan Honors. Since both schools are so similar, I can't decide. Both have amazing academics, but the research opportunities at Michigan are much better. At the same time, however, Notre Dame is much smaller, and interaction with professors would be much easier from what I know. I have always supported both football teams because ND upholds academic standards and Michigan, although the football players are not subject to academic standards, is one of the top universities academically in the country. I am politically liberal and not catholic, which might be a problem at ND; HOWEVER, I went to high school with many religious right conservatives, and I LOVE arguing with them and making them look ignorant :-), although at Notre Dame since the quality of students is very high, they might give me a run for my money! Please help.</p>
<p>have u visited both schools? how do they compare?</p>
<p>Yeah I visited both schools, and I liked Ann Arbor better than South Bend, but I the campuses were equally awesome. I am out of state, and cost really isn't an issue. Any more insight??</p>
<p>Notre Dame is a great university...but Michigan is a superior University. Michigan has a better academic reputation and stronger individual departments. You would probably have slightly better interaction with professors at Notre Dame, but it is not like Michigan professors aren't approachable. If you like the idea of attending both schools equally, prefer the town of Ann Arbor and consider yourself liberal and non-Catholic, go for Michigan. </p>
<p>By the way, the mean SAT score of GPA of football players at Michigan are about the same as they are at Notre Dame. Ergo, Notre Dame is either an easier academic insitution or they do not hold their football players to the same standards as the rest of their students. And if you like Football, Notre Dame is on its way down. They have not won a Bowl game since 1993 and they have had several losing seasons recently. </p>
<p>By the way, what do you want to major in?</p>
<p>Alexandre, you seem very ubiquitous on these CC boards.</p>
<p>(By the way, Merry Christmas)</p>
<p>I too, am facing the ND vs. Michigan dilemma. I was deferred from Georgetown (still keeping my hopes though).. But my fear is the financial aid from Michigan will stink, so I think ND will be better for me financially..</p>
<p>If you are in the honor program, the class sizes are smaller and you have better access to the professors. Suggest you also take advantage of the UROP and Mentor programs...and look into the learning community programs. These will help you get a jump start at the U of M.</p>
<p>Yeah Alexandre I was reading some of your other posts, and you seem to have a very strong opinion of Michigan. I am really astounded that you turned down Columbia, Penn, and Duke for it, so that says alot. You also used ergo, which I do alot lol. As far as my major, I definately want to do scientific research and medicine, and I know that the research opportunities at Michigan are amazing. For my actual major, however, I do not know what I want to do, as everything interests me. I guess my top choices are biology, math, english, and maybe political science, but I'll have to see once I get to college. One other important aspect is the non academic life. I am very into sports, and I know the intramurals/club sports at both schools are really competitive but that's about it. Any insight? Also, I like to <em>gasp</em> party, and but I hear at Michigan the greek life is being subject to alot of rules (both good and bad) and that next year, even stricter party rules will be enacted.</p>
<p>tlaktan, Notre Dame may give you more money, but it is also about $5,000 more expensive. However, if Notre Dame costs you much less than Michigan, I agree that it would be worth going to Notre Dame.</p>
<p>Confuseddude, I made my decision based on what my parents (Georgetown and Columbia alums), uncles and aunts (MIT, Stanford, and Wharton alums)and close family friends who are now professors at top universities (Harvard, Columbia and Chicago) and top executives at companies like BNP Paribas and Goldman Sachs had to say about the universities I was chosing from. </p>
<p>Without exception, they felt Michigan was on par with the other schools I was accepted to and they all told me that in terms of quality of life, Michigan was hard to match...let alone beat. I personally never cared much for image and what common people think. I only care about what I feel and about how my decisions will impact my life. In such a case, I was best served by going to Michigan.</p>
<p>How can you say Michigan is superior to Notre Dame? You are very biased Alexandre.</p>
<p>"By the way, the mean SAT score of GPA of football players at Michigan are about the same as they are at Notre Dame. Ergo, Notre Dame is either an easier academic insitution or they do not hold their football players to the same standards as the rest of their students. And if you like Football, Notre Dame is on its way down. They have not won a Bowl game since 1993 and they have had several losing seasons recently. "</p>
<p>Maybe you should do some research Alexandre.</p>
<p>Esrajay, obviously Alexandre has some degree of biased, considering the fact that he graduated from the University of Michigan. However, he is very supportive nonetheless, regardless of where we plan to apply or attend. His knowledge about the field of college admissions is expansive -- I doubt that he hasn't done his research already. :).. </p>
<p>Just because Notre Dame (which I am starting to love now) is higher ranked than UMich by a couple of rankings ** does not mean ** that one is superior over the other. Both universities have their great academic qualities -- Alexandre was just showing UMich's side.. And to be honest, which is more overlooked, UMich or Notre Dame? He's only trying to level the playing field. ;)</p>
<p>Esrajay, I am not biased. It is not because I went to Michigan that I am biased. I fully admit that Notre Dame is an excellent university. But most academics and corporate recruiters will say that Michigan has a better faculty, better departments accross the board and a better curriculum than Notre Dame. As such, it is a better university. </p>
<p>If the OP had said that he loved South Bend and Notre Dame more than Ann Arbor and the University of Michigan, I would have recommended Notre Dame. But he clearly stated that he liked Ann Arbor better than Notre Dame, that he liked both campuses equally and that he is liberal. You tell me...which is a better fit for him?</p>
<p>I am not sure if this will mean anything to you, but I am devout Catholic. </p>
<p>As for my football facts, I would say they are pretty accurate. Notre Dame's last Bowl win in their 1993 season...against Texas A&M at the Cotton Bowl I believe. They have not won a Bowl game since. Furthermore, Notre Dame had losing seasons in 1999 (5-7), 2001 (5-6) and 2003 (5-7). </p>
<p>Please tell me how my facts were wrong.</p>
<p>I went to Michigan and my brother went to Notre Dame. Ann Arbor is a fun place to be. We love it so much that we consider moving back there some day (Money magazine picked A2 as one of eight best places to retire). On the other hand, Southbend is...uh, Southbend.</p>
<p>US News ranks Notre Dame ahead by a couple slots, but Michigan scores quite a bit higher in peer assessment (4.6 vs 3.9)...meaning Michigan is more prestigious in the academic circle. I will concede that the two schools have equally strong undergraduate programs.</p>
<p>But if you consider graduate or professional programs, there is no comparison. Confuseddude rightly pointed out that "the research opportunities at Michigan are much better". Indeed, Michigan has one of the best undergraduate research programs in the country (UROP).</p>
<p>Alexandre mentioned quality of life being one of the main reasons he picked Michigan. Again, Michigan/AnnArbor win this one hands down over Notre Dame/Southbend.</p>
<p>I'd better not comment on the football/basketball programs, otherwise my brother may not invite me for dinner next time.</p>
<p>Hey, leave Alexandre alone. He knows what he's talking about on these boards (when he doesn't, he states that he doesn't know). </p>
<p>Every answer that he has given me so far about my situation and the admissions process has turned out to be true, and he hasn't gotten on me about liking Northwestern more so than Michigan (even though I do like them both and I know that I'd be happy at either of them). He knows that if someone's heart is not fully somewhere, he/she will not completely enjoy the experience. </p>
<p>His answers are worth heeding.</p>
<p>Well I have made my decision, and believe me, my research began long before my first post on this board. It began during this summer. I followed each college in the media in addition to commentary by outside individuals, and I have decided to attend Michigan. I decided that academically Michigan was better for me as far as research opportunities and availability of concentrations. Also, I someone I know who goes there said that interaction with professors is actually easy, it's just that the student has to make the effort. One other factor in my decision was the eventual goals of each university. From reading many articles, including one last year in Newsweek that named President Coleman one of the most influential people in the country, I saw that the administration at Michigan had a clear goal of making the entire University one of the premier universities in the world, moreso than it already is. Also, recent fundraising efforts prove that a state university can compete in endowment size with such universities as ND and the ivies. ND seemed, however, much less stable, as it seems the recent Tyrone Willingham firing and disputes over it were reflections of a greater problem within the University. Finally, some of Notre Dame's rules, stemming from the conservatism of the administration and the schools tradition, seem a little out-dated to me. THAT SAID, I still have upmost respect for Notre Dame and its graduates, and I still think it is an incredible institution, but Michigan is better for me. Thank you to everyone who offered their advice and GO BLUE!!!!!</p>
<p>Notre Dame athletes have much higher grades and scores than Michigan athletes, I can guarantee you that. Secondly, with the hiring of Charlie Weis they are not "on their way down." I don't know if you watch pro football, but he is one of the premier offensive coordinators and was very capable of taking a head coaching job in the NFL. Why he decided to go to college over pros is a question I would like to ask him.</p>
<p>Now I do agree that Michigan is in a much better location. In addition, for the field I am pursuing (business) it is probably wiser for me to attend Michigan. My problem however is your assumptions that Michigan offers a better undergraduate education and social life.</p>
<p>When you state that you get a better education at Michigan how can you tell? In my opinion Michigan gets its reputation from its graduate programs, not undergraduate education (even though it does have an excellect undergraduate program as well). As for prestige, for business Michigan wins. However, I doubt that you know what recruiters from outside the business world know. How can you judge the prestige of the whole broad range of fields just by looking at the business field?</p>
<p>If you talk to ND alums and current students you know that they love ND. The percentage of freshman returning is higher than 99% of schools if not 100%. What does that tell you about social life. And im sure there is a large amount of liberal students attending since over 90% are out of state, coming from all over the place. If it is so conservative, then why are these liberal students coming back the next year? Why is their alumni giving so high?</p>
<p>Now, you may think I myself am biased. However, I am a "confuseddude" myself. I probably am leaning more towards Michigan just because of the business program. But to put Michigan on such a high pedistal in all your posts kind of makes me wonder if Michigan is as good as you say it is. And to make a judgement as to how much better Michigan is between two equal institutions is unfair.</p>
<p>Esrajay, Michigan's football players have identical GPAs and SAT scores to Notre Dame players. If you have proof to the contrary, please share it with us. But when I was following entering football classes in the 1993-2002 period, Michigan and Notre Dame football players were pretty much the same in terms of SATs and graduating GPAs. As for Notre Dame making a comeback, let us see. Success in the NFL does not mean success in the NCAA. I personally do not see Notre Dame winning more than 6 or 7 games in the next few years. They simply don't have the system in place.</p>
<p>Secondly, I know what recruiters think because it is what I do. I am a Human Resources professional...and college recruiting is something I did at both major financial insitutions (Scwhab and Goldman Sachs) and manufacturing companies (Ford and Eaton). So I pretty much know what companies in several industries think and do.</p>
<p>Quality of life at Notre Dame is not great. It is good, but limited. I have met many graduate students at Michigan who did their undergraduate studies at Notre Dame. They thought they had a great experience until they got Michigan only to find out how much they had missed. By the way, Michigan returns 96%-97% of its freshmen and graduates 85% of their students. Thatis not far behind Notre Dame, and that's because the bottom 10%-20% of Michigan's class are usually not good enough to deal with Michigan's horrible grading curves. Those students would most likely not have fared that well at any other top university, but Michigan is so large, they let in a few weak students on an annual basis.</p>
<p>Finally, undergraduate education is not the only focus of the University of Michigan. Nor is it the only focus of any major research university. But for the motived student, Michigan, like most top 10-15 universities in the country, offers opportunities that cannot be equalled by most other universities...Notre Dame included. I do not think you are biased. I simply think that you are looking at a limited number of criteria and maybe that you listen too much to a small group of individuals. But I am not biased either. I have nothing against Notre Dame. It is a fine university, just like Boston College, NYU, USC, Georgetown, Vanderbilt, Emory etc...but Michigan is superior. With the exception of young students in this forum and a select few highly prejudiced elitists, Michigan is generally rated as one of the nation's top 10-15 universities at the undergraduate level. At the graduate level, Michigan is universally ranked among the top 5 or 6 in the nation.</p>
<p>Alexandre,</p>
<p>I'm just curious. Do you ever come back to visit U of M?</p>
<p>"someone I know who goes there said that interaction with professors is actually easy, it's just that the student has to make the effort." How true!</p>
<p>The popular knock against big State U's is the lack of personal attention and difficult access to professors. This is true if you need a lot of hand holding. No one will dispute that big research universities like U-M have more courses, more programs and more resources than most private U's or LAC's that are one-fourth of their sizes or less. It's just that there are a lot more students sharing those resources. However, if you know what you want, and are motivated and proactive, you can get a bigger share and get the max out of what the university has to offer.</p>
<p>Here's a testimony from a very smart student:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"My majors were sociology, history and political science-I completed an option called honors in the major for soc and history, and also finished the letters & science honors program...
...
"First semester is really just a time to get your bearings. If you're not already in the L&S honors program I would recommend trying for a strong g.p.a. your first semester and applying for admission to the honors program second semester. The program will give you access to small seminars with top professors immediately, provide more guidance, provide more scholarship opportunities, and look good on a future resume. Joining the honors program is what ultimately kept me at UW and introduced me to some really amazing profs-the same profs that offered to be references for my current job, wrote my grad school recommendations, and continue to support me. I think you only need a 3.5 your first semester to apply, so definitely try it. Even if you don't finish the program, it gives you preferred registration for a lot of classes you otherwise would not have access to, including some of the best classes at the university. </p>
<p>My advice to incoming freshman
get to know your profs. The freshman experience at UW can involve a lot of lectures if you're not careful, and there is a danger of being isolated from the actual professors. In general, though, the profs are amazing people at the top of their fields and they're really friendly when somebody shows up at their office hours. My sophomore year I repeatedly dropped in on one of my poli sci professors, mostly because I had an hour between classes during his office hours. I can't express how important the ensuing friendship with him has been to my personal, intellectual, and even professional growth. Gradually I got into the habit of getting to know most of my professors, and taking multiple classes with the ones I really liked. This fall, while my boyfriend (with a much better g.p.a. than me) couldn't think of 3 professors he felt confident would give him great recommendations, my shortlist had 8 professors in 5 different disciplines."
(excerpted from the PrincetonReview College Forum - naoka: Wisconsin 08 Thread)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The author was speaking of her experience at the U of Wisconsin, but you can easily extend that to Michigan, or any of the top public research universities in general.</p>
<p>Confuseddude,
Welcome to the U of Michigan. You sound like a Wolverine already. Go Blue!</p>
<p>I'm just wondering, but who won the U of M vs. ND game this year?</p>