<p>"Ergo, Notre Dame is either an easier academic insitution or they do not hold their football players to the same standards as the rest of their students. "</p>
<p>I can't believe I forgot to state this earlier. Alexandre, did you happen to forget the Fab 5?</p>
<p>Esrajay.</p>
<p>1)The Fab 5 was basketball (it's inconsequential I know)
2)It they received money-that has nothing to do with academic standards
3)It is well known that our athletes-namely football and basketball players are not subject to academic standards so don't bother arguing it</p>
<p>I know that, tell it to Alexandre.</p>
<p>Esrajay, that IS exactly my point. Michigan does not hold its athlete to a different standard...which explains why so many do not graduate. </p>
<p>The Terminator Power, Michigan's students are, on average, as gifted and accomplished as Notre Dame students. Only Harvard, Stanford, Yale, Princeton, CalTech, MIT and a couple of LACs have students that are appreciable better than Michigan students. </p>
<p>In fact, last time I checked, Michigan was the 18th most selective university in the country...Notre Dame was the 21st most selective. At any rate, that is completely irrelevent and meaningless. The difference between the 10th most selective university and the 30th most selective university is negligible. But you are wrong when you say that Notre Dame has better students than Michigan.</p>
<p>And Michigan remains far more diverse than Notre Dame. Like I said, about 10% of Michigan's student body is international, compared to 5% at Notre Dame. 17% of Notre Dame's student body belongs to minorities compared to 28% at Michigan. Notre Dame is 55% male and 45% female. Michigan is 50/50. Close to 90% of Notre Dame students are Catholic. Michigan is significantly more diverse in that regard. The list goes on and on.</p>
<p>Project86, 50 points on the SAT is insignificant.</p>
<p>You changed your international student %. Not only that, but as I stated before and you can take 2 minutes to check, they both have the same % international students enrolling freshman year. We can continue down this diversity path -- because you did not address my point, I will reiterate it. 67% of UMich's freshmen come directly from the state of Michigan. That's not impressive at all. And, of course, diversity is your bread and butter when it comes to student life, and we know how subjective that is.</p>
<p>You are right -- the difference is negligible. However, your facts are completely wrong.</p>
<p>2004:</p>
<p>Ann Arbor: # of students applied: 25,801. # of students admitted: 12,315 (47%)
middle 50%:</p>
<p>SAT verbal: 570-670, SAT math: 610-720, ACT composite: 26-30.</p>
<p>Notre Dame: # of students applied: 9,744. # of students admitted: 3,336 (34%)
middle 50%</p>
<p>SAT verbal: 620-720, SAT math: 650-730, ACT composite: 30-33</p>
<p>Notre Dame is more selective. </p>
<p>That's not to say that there are numerically more qualified people at ND, only on average. </p>
<p>There are so many fine points of UM that you can choose to argue, because it is a unique school, and comparing it to smaller private colleges is comparing apples and oranges in many ways. That's why I stated in the beginning that to rank them is such a silly thing to do. Anyway, I tire of arguing for ND -- I only wanted to give them the respect I think they deserve. I can't wait 'til UM beats them next year in football (I assume they play every year..).</p>
<p>You ignore many facts TheTerminator. And unlike you, I do not tire of arguing. </p>
<p>For one thing, 35% out-of-state may seem low to you, but when you are speaking about a school the size of Michigan, that means 8,000 out-of-staters. And you also forget about the graduate school, which is 65% out-of-state. That's 10,000 out of 14,000 graduate students from out-of-state. So 18,000 of Michigan's 40,000 students are out-of-state. </p>
<p>Secondly, I did indeed change the percentage of international students at Notre Dame from 2% to 5% because I continued to do research and found a more accurate site. Why is that a problem...the change actually favors Notre Dame. But 5% of 10,000 students is still tiny when compared to 10% of 40,000.</p>
<p>Finally I said it before and I will say it again, Notre Dame students have higher standardized test scores, but Michigan deemphasizes the SATs. In terms of class rank and GPA, Michigan and Notre Dame are identical. Percent accepted has nothing to do with the actual quality of the students. The University of the Ozarks in Missouri and another 10 universities like it have acceptance rates that hover in the 15%-20%, but their student bodies are average - weak. On the whole, Michigan students are, on average, as capable, driven and talented as Notre Dame student...and they are far more diverse. </p>
<p>I personally hate this debate because it makes me appear one-sided, but this forum is filled with people direspecting Michigan and I will defend it. </p>
<p>There are reasons to pick Notre Dame over Michigan (it is Catholic, it is conservative, and it is small) but quality of student body, general reputation and quality of academics are not among them. For students who prefer Ann Arbor to South Bend and who prefer a more diverse and tolerant student body, as is the case with the OP, it really isn't much of a dilemna.</p>
<p>As for the Michigan vs Notre Dame game...it is played annually until 2011... I think. After that, the universities will have to agree on a new series. If I have learned anything from the Michigan vs Notre Dame game it is that no matter how much of an underdog Notre Dame is, they can still beat Michigan!</p>
<p>I'd prefer it if you cite your sources for your information from now on. I told you where I got my numbers from. If you're going to change your facts, I'd like to see where you are coming from. </p>
<p>Hmm. I was mainly just comparing the undergraduates of each university. However, we were talking about complete universities. So, yes, UM does have a greater percentage of out-of-state graduate students than the percent for undergraduate students. Though I will venture to say that graduate students in many ways comprise an entirely different student body than undergraduates. They aren't a part of the greek system, etc. ND is largely undergraduate-focused. </p>
<p>It matters not if Michigan deemphasizes SAT's or not! They receive both tests, just like ND does. I showed the middle 50% of both tests for both schools. I'm not sure which test ND prefers. If Michigan emphasized the ACT more though, then the scores on the ACT should be higher than the SAT's, but they aren't. There's nothing conclusive about that argument at all. </p>
<p>I never claimed that percent accepted directly meant a higher quality student. You claimed that Michigan was more selective, and I pointed out that they clearly weren't. On the whole, due to the fact that Michigan is a state school and gives a huge advantage to any Michigan high school senior looking to enroll there, Michigan accepts students that are on average lower achieving that ND's. It's the nature of the beast. Not only do they give special attention to Michigan students, but they give huge advantages to minorities, which leads to a more diverse and less qualified student body. Thus the gaping difference in ACT scores. </p>
<p>I am not disrespecting Michigan. I am only defending ND from claims from people like you, arrogantly claiming superiority over other universities. You do sound one-sided, and I don't know of any evidence to claim otherwise. You inflate and exaggerate so much that it's tough to argue with you. For instance, you said:</p>
<p>which is 65% out-of-state. That's 10,000 out of 14,000 graduate students from out-of-state.</p>
<p>10,000 out of 14,000 is 71.4%. 9,000 out of 14,000 is 64.3%. From what I know, it's better to present an accurate argument rather than an exaggerated one. Whenever I note constant exaggerations, I become skeptical. This is probably no coincidence, considering your bias.</p>
<p>UM's student body is more diverse. It is not more tolerant. There is a clear distinction. I still believe that Notre Dame has a better reputation than UM. For undergraduate students, there aren't many schools that can give you that experience I know they offer. There is such a huge difference between UM and ND when it comes to the community feel. I believe that's probably the most important aspect of an undergraduate education. Learning is all about the atmosphere. College is all about the experience. You may like A2 more than South Bend, but to many people walking along busy streets to go to class isn't as nice as walking in one of the most beautiful campuses of all universities. I personally am turned off with how liberal UM is, and the eccentric students it attracts. A2 has one of the biggest gay communities in the nation, which some consider to be tolerant and diverse, but which other people consider a big turnoff. ND offers a more university-oriented community experience than UM.</p>
<p>Terminator, Michigan deemphasizes ALL standardized tests. And I did not "claim" that Michigan is more selective. According to the USNWR, Michigan is the 18th most selective university in the country...Notre Dame is 21st. I personally agree that it is harder to get into Notre Dame. Notre Dame needs to accept 3,500 to fill its class. Michigan needs to accept 13,000 to fill its class. Obviously, Michigan is going to be less selective. But the qualuity of the student body is roughly the same. To hear you, one would think they are like day and night. Notre Dame students are perhaps, on average, slightly better, but at that level, it is purely conjecture. </p>
<p>Admitedly, Michigan gives a huge advantage to URM. I personally do not agree with the University's admission's policy where URMs are concerned, but so be it.</p>
<p>And your insinuations that I exaggerate shows a lack of good faith on your part. I do not have time to calculate every little detail. I am not writing a thesis here. I make errors, but they are negligible. But if you want actually sources, I will give you a few.</p>
<p>You may believe that Notre Dame has a better reputation than Michigan, but few people do...in terms of percentages. Here are a few opinions I would like to share with you: </p>
<p>Although I do not always agree with the USNWR, the Peer Assessment" score is derived from was academe in general and as a collective thinks of undergraduate institutions. Michigan gets a peer rating of 4.6/5.0 (tied with Chicago, Cornell, Duke, Johns Hopkins and Penn) and Notre Dame gets a peer rating of 3.9/5.0. This isn't even close. </p>
<p>According to Fiske, Michigan gets a ***** academic rating and Notre Dame gets a **** academic rating. </p>
<p>According to Gourman, Michigan is ranked #3 among undergraduate institutions and Notre Dame is ranked #17 among undergraduate institutions. </p>
<p>According to any undergraduate ranking of Business schools and schools of Engineering, Michigan is usually ranked in or around the top 5 nationally. Notre Dame seldom makes it into the top 20 in either. </p>
<p>There is little doubt as to which of those two schools Academe respects more highly. </p>
<p>The Corporate World also thinks more highly of Michigan. Notre Dame does not have nearly as much information, but the little it does have would suggest that Michigan is more highly regarded in the corporate world. </p>
<p>Again, I am not discussing the quality of education a person can receive at the schools. I am saying that as a university...as an entity, Michigan is superior to Notre Dame. In terms of personal fit, each individual has different needs, and as such, it is impossible to say one university is superior to another. </p>
<p>Finally, your description of the South Bend experience and the Ann Arbor experience makes it sound like South Dend is heaven and Ann Arbor is an urban inferno. In terms of atmospheres, there is no comparison. Ann Arbor blows South Bend away. South Bend is a dump. In terms of on-campus life, both schools have proud traditions. I am sure Notre Dame has a great community feel. Afterall, when the vast majority of your students are white, American, Conservative and Catholic, you will obviously have a student body that gets along beautifully. Furthermore, when you are a small student body and have nother around you but farm country, you have no choice but to bond. But how much do they learn from one another? Michigan is a huge university with several communities within it. Those communities interact with each other everywhere from the dozens of dorms, cafeterias, libraries, cafes and streets...and they learn from each other.</p>
<p>but at that level, it is purely conjecture.</p>
<p>I never thought so. There is a big difference between people that score in the 30's vs. those who score in the high 20's. As the scores higher, the amount of people that earn that score become exponentially small. Any scores from 18-24 you could possibly call conjecture, but not when you get over 25. There is a big difference between a 26 and a 31/32 on an ACT test.</p>
<p>According to Gourman, Michigan is ranked #3 among undergraduate institutions and Notre Dame is ranked #17 among undergraduate institutions</p>
<p>from <a href="http://www.collegeconfidential.com/college_rankings/gourman_report.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www.collegeconfidential.com/college_rankings/gourman_report.htm</a> :</p>
<p>*<br>
Gourman Report: Rankings of Colleges by Department</p>
<p>The Gourman Report (officially, Gourman Report: Undergraduate Programs and Professional Programs in American and International Universities) takes a boldly different approach. *Instead of ranking schools by overall quality<a href="whatever%20that%20is">/b</a>, Dr. Jack Gourman ranks the best English programs, the best Chemistry departments, etc. - everything from Accounting to Zoology. Gourman used dozens of criteria, from faculty salaries to how well the mission of the department is defined, to produce the quantitative rankings.</p>
<p>Further, </p>
<p>Gourman's rankings are controversial, and favor large state universities according to some critics.</p>
<p>And I can just as well quote USNWR rankings, which ranks ND higher than UM, and doesn't have a reputation for giving state schools better marks.</p>
<p>I'm sure that they learn plenty from each other at South Bend. They come form all over the country, not just Michigan. It's not the color of your skin that counts, but where you come from and how you are different from others.</p>
<p>I own the Gourman, and he does have a composite ranking, taking into consideration many factors. Here are his top 20:</p>
<h1>1 Princeton</h1>
<h1>2 Harvard</h1>
<h1>3 Michigan</h1>
<h1>4 Yale</h1>
<h1>5 Stanford</h1>
<h1>6 Cornell</h1>
<h1>7 Cal-Berkeley</h1>
<h1>8 Chicago</h1>
<h1>9 Wisconsin</h1>
<h1>10 UCLA</h1>
<h1>11 MIT</h1>
<h1>12 CalTech</h1>
<h1>13 Penn</h1>
<h1>14 Duke</h1>
<h1>15 Northwestern</h1>
<h1>16 Johns Hopkins</h1>
<h1>17 Notre Dame</h1>
<h1>18 Brown</h1>
<h1>19 Rice</h1>
<h1>20 Dartmouth</h1>
<p>I do not see how it favors large state universities when 16 of his top 20 are private. It is controversial because it does not suit a small minority of the people out there, but it is pretty consistant with what the majority of academics and coprorate recruiters think.</p>
<p>Like I said, the one score in the USNWR that is based on the opinion of academe is the peer assessment score. I personally have higher regard for ,and more faith in, academe's opinion of university quality than in the opinion of a magazine who's main intent is to sell. When the USNWR first came out, in 1985 or 1986, they ranked universities according to the Peer Assessment ans student selectivity. Michigan was ranked #9 in the nation...Cal was #6. But that did not sit well with many common people and sales dropped, so they started adding other factors to please the masses. I personally do not have a problem with the USNWR final ranking, but it is not an indicator of reputation. In terms of reputation, Notre Dame is not on the same level as Michigan.</p>
<p>As for your claim that there is a big difference between students who score in the low 30s on their ACTs as opposed to students who score in the high 20s, you may be right. But the average salary of Michigan alums is higher than the average salary of Notre Dame alums, so I am not sure how there is a correlation between ACTs/SATs and success in general. What I do know is that I scored much higher on my SAT than did students at Michigan (or Harvard for that matter), and I struggled at Michigan. I barely graduated with a 3.5, and I had to break my neck to do it. Michigan sends as many (in terms of percentages) of its students to top graduate programs. So I do not see a correlation between SATs/ACTs and intellectual ability or potential for success. Clearly, the fact that both universities recruit and attract students that are generally ranked well in the top 10% of their high school class and graduate with average GPAs well over the 3.7 range is more indicative of future potential.</p>
<p>And I agree that diversity is not purely defined in terms of race. I never claimed it was. But when over 80% of a school's student body follows the same faith, comes from the same demographic and race, and is generally conservative, you have very little room for diversity of thought. In contrast, roughly 10% (4,500 out of 40,000) of Michigan's student body is international. That alone makes for incredible diversity of thought. 25%-30% of Michigan students are Muslim or Jewish. Another 10% or so are Hindu or Budhist. Academic persuits at Michigan are incredibly diverse too. You seem focused on the fact that 70% of Michigan undergrads come from the midwest, but close to 20% come from NY and CA. At the very root of the issue, most people who go to Notre Dame go there because it is Catholic or because it is conservative. There aren't just two or three reasons why people go to Michigan. Some go there because it is cheap or close to home (in the case of out-of-staters), others go because Michigan is ranked among the top 5 or so in the nation in their field of interest (Engineering, Business, Psychology, Political Science, Anthropology, History etc...), others go because they love the idea of Ann Arbor etc... But none of those reasons attract like-minded individuals. </p>
<p>To claim that any university in the country has more diversity of thought than Michigan is already a stretch, but to say that Notre Dame does is innacurate as far as I am concerned. </p>
<p>I do not have to repeat myself because I have been saying it constantly...I am not comparing the education that individuals at those two fine universities will or can receive (that cannot be measured and the upward limit is unlimited) but rather, I am speaking about the academic institutions in their totality.</p>
<p>A quick update on the Gourman Report. The ranking I gave above was from the 1991 report. His 1998 report changed slightly.</p>
<h1>1 Princeton</h1>
<h1>2 Harvard</h1>
<h1>3 Michigan</h1>
<h1>4 Yale</h1>
<h1>5 Stanford</h1>
<h1>6 Cornell</h1>
<h1>7 Cal-Berkeley</h1>
<h1>8 chicago</h1>
<h1>9 Wisconsin-Madison</h1>
<h1>10 UCLA</h1>
<h1>11 MIT</h1>
<h1>12 CalTech</h1>
<h1>13 Columbia</h1>
<h1>14 Northwestern</h1>
<h1>15 Penn</h1>
<h1>16 Notre Dame</h1>
<h1>17 Duke</h1>
<h1>18 Brown</h1>
<h1>19 Johns Hopkins</h1>
<h1>20 Dartmouth</h1>
<p>The make up is still the same...Rice was replaced by Columbia, but the overall rating pretty much remained the same.</p>
<p>Wait Alex, I thought the Michigan Notre Dame series was permanent on both schedules because people got mad a couple of years ago when they didn't play each other. We are Notre Dame's biggest rival (at least that's who my friends who go to ND tell me who is most hated on campus- and yes it is us more than USC, MSU, Stanford, Purdue, BC, and Navy), and Notre Dame is our second biggest rival. It is the most tradition-filled game in all of college football-the two winningest teams, the colors, the stadiums, the fight songs, and the pride.</p>
<p>Firstly, there is no way in hell Michigan is better than yale, stanford, MIT, Caltech, Penn, or even Berkeley. Even more surprising than anything else is #9 Wisconsin. This is one of the crappiest rankings I have ever seen. Besides, why even bring up Gourman when nobody even cares about it.</p>
<p>NIRVANA, I do not believe the series is not permanent...but I may be wrong. Sorry dude. But at least, until you graduate, assuming you don't pull a Tommy Boy, Michigan and Notre Dame will play each other annually.</p>
<p>ESRAJAY, the Gourman Report is respected. It is controversial because people like you cannot accept certain facts, but the ranking is very valid. The Gourman Report is published by the Princeton Review. The Princeton Review uses his rankings for their graduate school rankings. Furthermore, he is an educational consultant for several elite Private High Schools, Fortune 100 companies and Governmental Agencies. So I would not doubt the man's credentials. I personally agree that it is extreme and in some ways one-dimentional. I agree that Michigan should not be ranked ahead of Yale, Stanford, MIT or Cal. However, Michigan does make a case for being ranked ahead of Penn. It is certainly equal to Penn in most respects and in some ways, Michigan is better than Penn. Overall, Michigan is definitely one of the top 15 universities in the nation...and arguably one of the top 7 or 8. As for Wisconsin, you should probably look into it before assuming that it is not a great university. Wisconsin is ranked among the top 10 in more departments than any school behind it. But tell me, if Gourman is so ridiculous, why did you only take exception to Michigan and Wisconsin? I would say your taking exception with just 2 or 3 or even 4 of his top 20 would make his rating quite good. I usually take exception to half of a rankings top 20.</p>
<p>I can't imagine why USNWR would use Gourman. I don't know anyone who respects his rankings. He might get some things right, but he's not well thought of. Not by people who study higher ed.</p>
<p>Granted, USNWR isn't very well thought of either, but their rankings are seen as influential, so institutions have to pay attention and they do what they can to make sure they reflect agreed-upon measures of institutional quality. I think it is useful to look at all aspects of USNWR's rankings, to understand why an institution that may be mediocre on one measure gets a high overall ranking, or why an institution with a stellar ranking on a measure doesn't crack the top 10 or 20. The reputational rank, which Alexandre mentions, is certainly useful in that regard. </p>
<p>A final note: please know that when you use numbers like "2004" to cite application figures and selectivity indices, you are referring to the publication date of USNWR. Those are not the figures for Fall 2004, they're the figures for Fall 2003. A little nitpicky but important since U-M has gone through big changes in its application process in 2004.</p>
<p>I would not use the word "impressive" or "unimpressive" to characterize a public schools' residency figures. A state school is expected (often required) to have mainly in-state undergrads, so the proportion is not a good measure on which to make value judgments.</p>
<p>"But the average salary of Michigan alums is higher than the average salary of Notre Dame alums"</p>
<p>Proof?</p>
<p>I do not see how it favors large state universities when 16 of his top 20 are private.</p>
<p>I hope you won't wish for me to point out the logical fallacy in that thinking.</p>
<p>As for SAT/ACT scores, they actually do mean a lot and affect future success. You may believe differently for the sake of your university, but that is meaningless to anyone freed from the chains of blind loyalty.</p>
<p>ou seem focused on the fact that 70% of Michigan undergrads come from the midwest, but close to 20% come from NY and CA</p>
<p>No. I said that 65% or so come directly from the state of Michigan, not all the states that comprise the midwest.</p>
<p>But when over 80% of a school's student body follows the same faith, comes from the same demographic and race, and is generally conservative, you have very little room for diversity of thought.</p>
<p>I've shown you the statistics; entering class profiles admit the exact same percentage of international students, and ND enrolls students from around the nation, not just Michigan. Diversity of thought comes from the aforementioned fact, although I'd say that diversity of thought comes from gifted people, not colored people of different religions and geographic locations.</p>
<p>Further, the Catholic religion is a unifying presence on the campus, not a blindfold. ND is special in that sense.</p>
<p>*
To claim that any university in the country has more diversity of thought than Michigan is already a stretch, but to say that Notre Dame does is innacurate as far as I am concerned.*</p>
<p>Actually, Michigan tilts so far on the liberal scale that many people would say the opposite. </p>
<p>I do not have to repeat myself because I have been saying it constantly...I am not comparing the education that individuals at those two fine universities will or can receive (that cannot be measured and the upward limit is unlimited) but rather, I am speaking about the academic institutions in their totality.</p>
<p>Funny, because if there is one claim to fame you have, it's the fact that UM has offers such a wide breadth of courses and has excellent professors in those departments. On the contrary, ND focuses on the entire experience probably more intensively than any other university I can think of. Stick to your guns.</p>
<p>Esrajay, terminatorpower, and others:</p>
<p>I think the main problem is that you fail to realize how great an institution Michigan acutally is. The director of the Human Genome project, Francis Collins, is on the medical school faculty here, the students for a democratic society (SDS), one of the most influential collegiate political organizations, was formed at Michigan, the peace corpes formation was announced by President Kennedy on the steps of the Michigan Union, the modern system of biological classification and phylogeny were developed at Michigan, and many other significant feats were developed at this university. Our alumni also rival those of the top ivy leagues. President Gerald Ford, Dr. Atkins, Mike Wallace, James Earl Jones, Arthur Miller, Richard Gephardt, Ann Coulter, and many others were wolverines either as undergrads or graduate students. Ergo, of the people who truly change society and leave a mark on the American way of life, besides the ivy league, you will find that a large portion of them are Michigan graduates. Mike Wallace completely revolutionized television journalism, Dr. Atkins (though his methods are questionable), completely turned nutritional standards upside down, and Arthur Miller is one of the most important playwrights of the 20th century. Also, Michigan's endowment is either 5th or 6th in the country (correct me if I'm wrong Alex), which is huge. The only reason Michigan isn't as reputable among common society as Harvard and Yale is because it's a public institution, and it's not deathly impossible to get in for ungdergrad.</p>
<p>Terminatorpower, please point out the "logical falacy" in my thinking. I ask you to tell me why it is that listing 4 state universities among his top 20 universities makes Gourman biased toward state universities. Few would argue that Cal and Michigan are among the top 10-15 universities in the nation. UCLA and Wisconsin may be questionable, but not in terms of academic excellence.</p>
<p>SAT/ACT scores do not measure anything except how well the student prepared for the exam. That is all it measures. The average president of the United States has had SAT scores in the 1000-1200 range (which translates to an 1100-1300 according to modern standards) and the average CEO, VP and Directors at fortune 500 companies aren't far above that good but not great range. Obviously, students with 1500+ on their SAT will probably have more success in life than students with 1100- on their SAT. But to say that a student body with 1400- verage on the SAT is going to be more successfull or are more capable than a student body with 1300+ average on the SAT is nonesensical.</p>
<p>Terminator, you conveniently separate undergraduates from gradue students. Maybe in some schools, the two do not interact on a common basis. At Michigan, they do. Most undergrads take several graduate level classes (with graduate students) during the course of their stay in Ann Arbor. And most graduate students take undergraduate level classes or TA undergraduate classes. Many undergrads are involved in research and work closely with graduate students, both in a formal and informal setting. Graduate students and undergraduate students fill the same cafes and bookstores and share many conversations. In short, Michigan students, graduate and undergraduate alike, interact with each other in formal and informal settings at all times. Although only 5% of Michigan's undergraduate student body is international, in total, over 4,500 (out of fewer than 40,000 total students) Michigan students are international. Since you doubt everything I say, here is a link.</p>
<p>The same goes for out-of-state students. Although 65% of undergrads come from Michigan (only 6% come from other midwestern states), over 10% come from NY and close to 10% come from California. But graduate students are far more diverse, and like I said, interaction is not merely limited to undergraduate students. And even if it were, 35% of 24,000+ undergraduate students is over 8,000 students. That's a hefty number of out-of-state students. Notre Dame itself is over 40% midwestern mind you, so we are not talking about a marvel of geographic American diversity in either case. Besides, what does that have to do with academic excellence? 50% of Stanford's class comes from California. An additional 25% come from Western States. 40% of Cornell's undergraduate student body comes from NY. Another 40% come from PA, NJ and the NE. So geographic diversity is not always a must for a school to have great diversity of thought. But Notre Dame is not as diverse where thought is concerned. 80%+ are Catholic, conservative and white. Talk about potential for group-think! And I agree that partly, diversity of thought comes from talent...and Michigan students are talented. And as a devout Catholic myself, I can tell you when you stick a bunch of us together...we do indeed form a blindfold and resist learning in most ways that aren't academic. That is why I declined Georgetown and didn't even bother with Notre Dame. Learning at the highest level with such a group is limited in several ways.</p>
<p>If you think Michigan is predominantly "liberal", think again. I think you are confusing parts of Ann Arbor (the town), with the actual University. Michigan 's political spectrum is very wide and very balanced. For instance, Michigan's newspaper, the Review, is one of the top 5 conservative university Newspaper in the nation. Many Michigan students are conservative...and just as many are liberal. However, most Michigan students are at neither extreme. There are two common elements that are required at Michigan...the ability to hear people out and tolerance. I am not sure how Notre Dame is in that respect.</p>
<p>Finally it is not simply because Michigan ranked in the top 10 or top 15 in EVERY single major subject of study that the university does not focus on big picture. The two are not mutually exclusive. But Michigan is too multidimentional to offer all students the same environmental.</p>
<p>PROJECT86, there was an article written a few years back (1993 or 1994 I believe), either by Forbes or by Fortune, about the wealthiest alumni networks in the US. Harvard was #1 (surprise, surprise), Michigan was #4 and Notre Dame was actually #6. In a separate and independent study, the Peterson Guide conducted its own study in 1995 or 1996 and came up with a similar end result. Harvard and Michigan were #1 and #4 respectively. </p>
<p>A large reason for this is simple. Michigan gives out 7,500 diplomas annually. Of those, 1,500 are JDs, MDs, MBAs, Dentistry, Pharmacy and MS ENG and PhD ENG. Those are all top 7 or 8 programs nationally and the average salaries for those alums swells to well over $200,000, once they have reached a certain level in their careers. </p>
<p>Also, a large portion of Michigan undergraduate students come from very wealthy families. Unlike many state universities, Michigan attracts the kids of the wealthy. Of the great state universities, only UVA and maybe UNC are similar to Michigan in this regard. Finally, many of Michigan's undergrads major in fields such as Engineering, Nursing and Business. Starting salaries for those three programs (all of which are ranked among the top 5 or so nationally) hovers in the $40,000-$60,000...and most of those alums usually go for graduate studies later in their careers. </p>
<p>Finally, each year, Michigan undergrads enroll in top graduate schools. For example, last year, close to 150 undergrads enrolled in top 10 Law Schools. Another 150 or so enrolled in top 25 law schools. That's 300 students just going to top 25-30 Law schools. Many more go to top Medical schools, top MBA programs and top graduate Engineering programs. I do not have exact numbers, but I know that last year, 30 alums joined the Michigan graduate Business school, 25 Michigan alums enrolled at the Kellogg school of Management, another 20 joined the Harvard Business School and the Columbia Business school and yet another 15 at Wharton's graduate program. In all, 30% of Michigan undergrads go on to professional graduate programs. Another 10% get graduate degrees in academic disciplines.</p>
<p>Here's a look at Michigan students' Law school admissions.</p>
<p>As far as comparing Michigan to Notre Dame, starting salaries are listed on their respective websites. You can just surf their sites. For example, the average starting salary of Notre Dame BBAs is $44,000 (compared to $48,000 for Michigan BBAs). Average first year packages for Michigan MBAs is over $115,000. First year packages for Notre Dame MBAs is under $100,000.</p>
<p>Law schools stats also favor Michigan graduates. Average Michigan average starting salaries are well over $100,000. Notre Dame average starting salaries are closer to $90,000. Part of this is due to the ratio of students who join Law firms. From Michigan, roughly 85% of the students end up working at Law firms, compared to 70% from Notre Dame.</p>
<p>Furthermore, as I said above, Michigan has a huge school of Engineering, a large Medical school and highly respected Dentistry and Pharmacy programs. Those graduates also commend very high salaries.</p>