Michigan v. Notre Dame HELP PLEASE!!!!

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Michigan
41

<p>You want to go into business? That is very vague. But I will try to answer your question. </p>

<p>If you insist on majoring in Business:</p>

<h1>1 Penn (Wharton)</h1>

<h1>2 Michigan-Ann Arbor (Ross) and MIT (Sloan)</h1>

<h1>4 NYU (Stern), Cal-Berkeley (Haas) and UVA (McIntire)</h1>

<h1>7 Carnegie Mellon (Tepper), UT-Austin (McComb), UNC-Chapel Hill (Kennan Flagler)</h1>

<h1>10 Indiana University (Kelly), Cornell University (they are quickly gaining and should)</h1>

<p>Other good places to go for undergraduate business studies:
Emory
Georgetown
Notre Dame
Washington University-St Louis</p>

<p>If you do not care what you study and simply want to go into Consulting or Investment Banking:</p>

<p>Group I
Harvard, MIT, Princeton, Stanford and Yale</p>

<p>Group II:
Brown, Cal-Berkeley, CalTech, Chicago, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, Duke, Georgetown, Johns Hopkins, Michigan-Ann Arbor, Northwestern, Notre Dame and Penn.</p>

<p>Group III:
Many other good universities!</p>

42

<p>Alexandre,
Could you tell us more about Cornell's undergraduate business program? I presume you are referring to AEM in the College of Agriculture and Life Science.</p>

<p>Understand that AEM is completely separated from Johnson, both in terms of faculty and facilities. This makes sense as one college is stated funded and the other is private.</p>

<p>Q1: When was AEM established? I ask the question because Cornell was not ranked by US News until this year.</p>

<p>Q2: How's the quality of the faculty/facilities in AEM compared to Johnson?</p>

43

<p>Unfortunately GoBlue, I do not know much about Cornell's undergraduate Business program. I was a graduate student at the school of Industrial and Labor Relations. So I did not get to interact with undergrads that much. </p>

<p>Like you, I know that it is a completely separate entity to the Johnson School. I know it has been around for a while, but only recently has it gained the necessary structure to be considered a viable option for students wishing to major in Business. I also know that it is very selective. In its first ranking ever, it was ranked #14 in the nation. I expectit to make in into the top 10 in the next couple of years...and eventually make it to #6 or #7. </p>

<p>That's all I know.</p>

44

<p>"Now back to the original point, as far as a university in its totality goes, Michigan is superior to Notre Dame. Michigan has more resources, better departments, a better faculty, a better overall reputation, better ties to industry and is located in a better town. None of those can be questioned. "</p>

<p>I live in Southeastern U.S and 80-90% of people I've talked to(friends, family, professors, recruiters) hold ND in higher regard than Michigan. Therefore, I presume that Michigan is not as well-known on a national level as ND.</p>

45

<p>No offense, but Southeastern U.S.=bible belt. Even educated people there would hold a conservative, catholic institution with higher regard than a liberal, secular institution.</p>

46

<p>The Bible belt is typically evangelical protestant.</p>

47

<p>Alexandre:</p>

<p>I know that you don't feel wrong labeling schools as superior to others. That's why you consistently rank schools here. </p>

<p>I never claimed that you said Notre Dame was a bad school. That's entirely irrelevant.</p>

<p>Now back to the original point, as far as a university in its totality goes, Michigan is superior to Notre Dame. Michigan has more resources, better departments, a better faculty, a better overall reputation, better ties to industry and is located in a better town. None of those can be questioned.</p>

<p>Like I said before, and you must've missed, it is extremely inaccurate grade a university completely. You're simply assuming naturally inaccurate statistics as fact, then basing your complete and inaccurate opinion on them. For instance, when you say that Michigan has a better faculty, how is it that you grade this? Do you inquire as to the percentage of total profs. with a PhD or equivalent degree or higher in their field, and then state that the faculty is better? How inaccurate is that to be a measure of the quality of a faculty, and how it interacts with its student body? Do polls of student opinions tell the whole story, as fact? Then, profs. aren't even the completely faculty, and you have to take into many other considerations.</p>

<p>A better reputation? Can that seriously be proven? I'd like to assert that ND has a better reputation. How would we argue this? Your conclusions are merely value opinions, and you should note that instead of declaring them as fact.</p>

<p>What about USNews & World Report's report on the Best Colleges, where they list ND as "superior" to UMich? Do you know things that they do not? I'd like to hear your argument on that, as well.</p>

<p>You say that ND may be a better school for someone, but UMich is better overall. When you say overall, do you simply mean better for more students than ND? I assume that's what you're hinting at, but do not say directly. If that's the case, then is a school that's just perfect for a thousand students worse than a school that's excellent for ten thousand? I don't see your logic, there.</p>

<p>When you rank universities, you need to rank them on something tangible instead of something as arbitrary and unprovable as "totality." Further, I find the ranking of universities you do here to be quite unappealing and somewhat misleading. I'd prefer it if you were to give your rankings, then add something like "these are most agreed upon" instead of them being absolute fact.</p>

<p>In conclusion, naming a university "superior" to another is an inappropriate term. You may claim that they offer more majors or something similar, but an overall judgment is simply an informed opinion, and you should say it is.</p>

48

<p>I'm being really serious this time. It'd be really nice if people would stop attacking Alexandre with words in this thread. It's a lot worse than when people just compare schools to each other because you're backing one person into a corner. I know you're only just commenting on his comments (boy does that sound weird), but it'd be nice if people would just drop this (so that he doesn't completely give up on this forum and comes back).</p>

49

<p>I'd rather not. I do not care if Alexandre comes or goes based on what's said here. I'm not trying to start a fight, I'm just a little concerned that people will make brash decisions based on statistics when they should base their decisions on other factors. The same goes for reports like USNews.</p>

50

<p>Alex is a forum vet and can handle it. We went round and round a few times on another board years ago and he is still there.</p>

51

<p>I think I'm going to stay in the Northwestern board for a while. It's a little safer there saying whatever I've been saying lately seems to be wrong (on multiple levels and on multiple ideas). Plus, there's a lot of information that I'd like to know yet about that school so there's some sort of purpose for this.</p>

52

<p>EVERYONE STOP. I am the original poster, and I just wanted insight from Michigan students/alums on their experiences and opinions of the University, and I did the same in the Notre Dame room. Of course Alexandre is going to have a bias; he went to Michigan. Stop arguing over which college is objectively better, as they both have strengths and weaknesses. For me, Michigan is better. It might not be for other people. I believe Michigan's complete faculty is better and more widely known because of the graduate schools, and Alexandre said it has a better reputation among top CEOs to whom he has talked-at least I think. Anyway, stop arguing or create a new thread. Jeez.</p>

53

<p>Reeses, as I stated I am very grateful for Alexandre as he has helped all of us here very much. However, my concern is that people like you will just take his word as fact without doing your own research.</p>

<p>And confuseddude, do you know what a forum is? It is for people to share ideas. So, why are you telling us to stop?</p>

54

<p>VM, I have never been to the Southeast for prolonged periods of time. I have visited Charleston (SC), Atlanta, Charlotte (NC) and several ares in Florida. Loved the South. Charleston is great. Some of the best restaurants I had the please of eating at were in the region. Seegers in Atlanta and the Woodlands Resort and Inn right outside of Charleston are special.</p>

<p>As for your assertion that Southerners think more highly of Notre Dame than Michigan and as such is a more "national" university, I think it depends who you ask. To your average Joe in the Southeast, neither Michigan or Notre Dame can measure up to Wake Forest or Emory, and I would not be surprised if the majority think more highly of Notre Dame than they do of Michigan. But the average Joe is not who I am refering to. I am refering to academe and corporate recruiters. On a national and international level, Michigan is more highly regarded than Notre Dame.</p>

<p>ESRAJAY, I appreciate the fact that you do no want me to mislead students in this forum. If you go around, you will see that I am not the type who does. I never force a student into any position. Many people on this forum lie and spread untruths about Michigan and other state universities and I will correct them, but I do not force my believes on anyone, nor do I mislead the students. I admit that to each of our posts, there is an element of judgement and opinion and I also admit that I am an arrogant SOB!</p>

<p>TerminatorPower, there is ample proof to support my position that Michigan is better than, or superior to, or more highly regarded than (pick your poison) Notre Dame. You ask for tangible proof, that is all I have been talking about.</p>

<p>I do not grade faculty. The rankings do. Quality of department and quality of faculty are inseperable. Michigan is ranked much higher than Notre Dame in over 40 major academic departments, from Athropology (#1) to Political Science (#2), Psychology (#2) to History (#5), English (#11) to Economics (#11), Classics (#4) to Comparative Literature (#11), Sociology (#3) to Archaelogy (#5), Biology (#14) to Physics (#13), Mathematics (#8) to Computer Science (#13), Geology (#5) to Chemistry (#21), Law (#2-#7) to Medicine (#7), Engineering (#7) to Business (#2-#10), Languages (top 10 in most languages) to International Studies (top 10 in most regions of the World), Music (#4) to Architecture (#11), Nursing (#4) to Hospital Administration and Management (#1), Dentistry (#4) to Pharmacy (#3), Public Health (#5) to Social Work (#1), Education (#10) to Public Affairs and Policy (#10) and the list goes on and on. </p>

<p>Not only is Michigan ranked much higher than Notre Dame in each of those fields of study (if you can find just one department in which Notre Dame comes within 10 spots of Michigan, let me know), it is ranked much higher than most universities in each of those fields. Which explains why in academe, Michigan holds a very special place. This brings me to my next point; Reputation. </p>

<p>According to most polls, academe favors Michigan over Notre Dame on the reputation front. I am not a fan of the USNWR, but its main criteria is "Academic Reputation" or "Peer Assessement" and it is based on the collective opinion of academe, and that, I can at least trust...somewhat. Michigan's reputation score for undergraduate education is 4.6/5.0 (good for 9th in the nation). Notre Dame is significantly lower at 3.9 (not among the top 30). </p>

<p>Now clearly, there are concepts in education that are less tangible, such as quality of instruction. I cannot speak to it since such a measure would indeed be subjective.</p>

<p>As far as quality of life, I agree that it is up to the individual, and I admit that. To some people, Notre Dame is THE ideal. But the majority of people would not enjoy spending 4 years at a place like Notre Dame/South Bend. One aspect of the equation that can be measured is the actual towns. Ann Arbor is rated among the top 10 places to live by several independent and unrelated sources (Money Magazine, Fortune, Forbes, Woman Magazine etc...), regardless of age group or gender. South Bend is not exactly on the watch list!</p>

<p>And by the way, I do not usually "rank"...I much prefer to group. Rankings cannot possibly be 100% accurate.</p>

<p>So I am not merely and exclusively speaking out of opinion and bias as you suggest. There is an abundance of respected studies that support my assertion that Michigan is indeed better than Notre Dame.</p>

55

<p>alexandre owns again...</p>

56

<p>Alexandre, you are right that average person in South would prefer Wake, Vandy, or Emory to ND, Mich, or Northwestern. </p>

<p>If UMich is a state-funded school why is it so expensive even for instaters, for comparison MBA from GaTech is only $6k instate/$23K out.</p>

57

<p>There is ample proof for you to support your statement that Michigan is superior to Notre Dame, and there is ample proof in the converse. Notre Dame on average attracts the better student. When a student chooses a college to attend for the next 4 years of his/her life, which is of greater importance: the student body, or the professors? Certainly, many students can attest that college life is not inside the classroom, but out. And, of course, the totality of a university surely includes outside the classroom life. It's not about which school has the most highly regarded teachers -- it's what school fosters the best environment for learning and growth for its students. </p>

<p>And by the way, I do not usually "rank"...I much prefer to group. Rankings cannot possibly be 100% accurate.</p>

<p>You continually rank departments, etc. in this very thread. I find it hard to believe that statement of yours! However, I appreciate you accepting the idea that rankings are inaccurate. </p>

<p>I know you are not speaking simply out of opinion and bias. You are speaking on statistics which I believe you hold too dear to heart. Grading and ranking a university is ultimately a subjective assessment, and you should note that.</p>

<p>USNews is the most looked-to, credible, thorough, and popular study out there today. I'm not going to argue on their behalf that ND is superior to UMich based on their studies. I think the fact that they do rank ND higher is telling of itself. I'm sure you have plenty of statistics and opinions to support your argument -- I have none to counter, and rely only on an outsider's view to form my opinion. Which, I believe, and hope that you would agree, is better than a biased opinion, yes?</p>

<p>At any rate, both are highly esteemed universities. I would just hope that not only you, but everyone who reads these boards, would remind themselves once in awhile that ranking universities and all their components is only a study, and not a fact, and should thus be taken with a grain of salt.</p>

58

<p>Terminator Power, Notre Dame does not have better students than Michigan. That's a misconception. Mean SAT scores favor Notre Dame by a mere 50 points...and Michigan de-emphasizes SATs. But the average class rank and GPA of Michigan's entering class is just as high as Notre Dame's. Notre Dame is indeed more selective because it is much smaller and can afford accepting a smaller percentage of the students who apply, but the average student at Michigan is roughly as good as the average student at Notre Dame. </p>

<p>But again, I would chose Michigan's student body over Notre Dame's any day. Not only are they as smart and capable as Notre Dame students, but they are far, far, far more diverse. Michigan has more than 4,000 (10%) international students (compared to Notre Dame's 200 or 2%). The breadth of academic interests is significantly deeper at Michigan, which probably makes for more intelectual diversity. In terms of faith, over 75% of Notre Dame students are Catholic...at Michigan, no one faith makes up more than 30% of the student body in terms of learning outside the classroom. </p>

<p>I never said that Michigan was better than Notre Dame for everybody. I clearly said that from the start. Notre Dame is excellent. A student who likes Notre Dame's style will get as much from her/his education as a student at any university in the World. I was merely saying that as universities, free from all personal preferences, Michigan is superior to Notre Dame. </p>

<p>As for rankings, I personally do not rank, not am I qualified to rank. I may quote rankings from other sources, but I do not rank.</p>

59

<p>There is no misconception about the quality of students at ND: They have higher mean SAT scores (Even ACT scores converted to SAT are lower), a greater % of national merit scholars, a better class rank, and I can guarantee you they have better extracurriculars. It is a fact that ND attracts a stronger student. ND, as part of the midwest, takes the SAT or ACT, same as Michigan.</p>

<p>Yes, UMich is diverse, although becoming less so since their unconstitutional practices were nulled. However, if having a large % of minorities in the student body is more important than talent, then UMich would take the prize. I went to ND's website, and they have 4% international. I checked UMich's website and they also have 4% international. Interesting clash of statistics we have (actually, I am looking at freshmen class profiles, not entire student bodies). Also, 67% of UMich's student body comes directly from the state of Michigan, whereas ND has more students coming from all over the nation (for instance, 40% come from all the states of the Midwest).</p>

<p>You weren't merely saying anything -- you declared that Michigan was a superior school to ND! That's quite a statement, and I've already listed the flaws in that thinking.</p>

<p>Whether you quote other rankings or make them up yourself, you are ranking.</p>

60

<p>"they are far, far, far more diverse"</p>

<p>If I remember correctly, Michigan was/is the prime example of lowering standards/giving an edge to minorities. Perhaps Notre Dame is capable of looking past a person's skin color and seeing the person they really are.</p>

<p>Oh, and 50 points on the SAT is quite a bit.</p>