Minorities take our places! Sound Off!!!

Colleges & Universities A-Z University of Notre Dame
21

<p>It has been written on CC that admissions is building a well rounded "class" of admits not searching for well rounded "individuals."</p>

<p>It is probably viewed by admissions that it is a better overal experience for those admitted to have exposure to diversity--more opportunities for admits to learn new culture, etc. </p>

<p>Diversity cannot hurt when it comes to athletic recruiting as a recruit would probably feel more comfortable seeing similar students. Offers of admission are seldom made to people where it isn't believed they will thrive on campus.</p>

<p>So, OP go to a college where they love you and enrich yourself in the diversity you will find yourself amongst.</p>

22

<p>I am not 100% sure what you are saying GCHornet, but one point I wish to argue is that more minorities = more diversity. This simply is not the case. Yes, to have diversity you need minorities, but what good is it if there isn't a mix? Here, as it is now, most people hang out with individuals of the same race, that is just how it is. There are clubs trying to fix that, and there are exceptions, but overall that is how it seems. Does that increase diversity? I don't know. I think I would rather have fewer minorities and have the school focus more on integration, but that is just me...if it has to be a trade off, I am not sure that it has to be one.</p>

<p>A second thing to consider is diversity is more than just minorities, but SES, geography, and a slew of other things. A poor white kid can be a minority, and can increase diversity.</p>

<p>Again, case by case affirmative action is the way to go IMO because you help those who truly need help, you can increase all types of diversity (not just racial), and perhaps if we do that there will be fewer lines of separation between races. Until we force ourselves to be color-blind how can we live in a color-blind world? It is impossible.</p>

<p>EDIT: As for recruiting, you really can't bring that into play. Yes, having diversity helps, but so does having an attractive student body. Are we going to only admit the most beautiful to enhance recruiting? If so, I am screwed :).</p>

23

<p>Irish,
I've been in classes where we discuss AA with scholars who study it. Many schools will give points to applicants who have been disadvantaged in some way and gauge this from essay questions, the candidate's school's resources, the neighborhood the applicant comes from, etc. You can't judge by this internet forum. Besides, how many white kids on here specify whether or not they're poor?</p>

<p>I really think that whites argue race-neutral programs because they are unaware of the privilege that being white bestows upon them automatically. It's easy to see the world as race-less when you're in the driver's seat and race never becomes part of your consciousness. </p>

<p>Also, it's important to note that though minorities may have lower SAT scores (which only weakly correlate with first year grades) ND wouldn't admit students it couldn't graduate.</p>

24

<p>Someone's angry they got rejected. Cry yourself to sleep then go to your state school.</p>

25

<p>Some people just do not have what admissions is looking for. Maybe you are just one of those people. Don't go blaming minorities right away.</p>

26

<p>First of all, if a white person cant get into a school over a minority, then maybe he is just too dumb to get past what real affirmative action is all about. White people will always have better resources over minorities, even if the white person is poor.</p>

<p>Second of all, Notre Dame doesnt even place racial status as "important" or "very important" factor for their decision at collegeboard.com</p>

<p>Third of all, Why the hell are you guys arguing this? ...When there is nothing you can do or say that will change it.</p>

<p>And the final comment is, why are you guys also arguing this when the Original Poster "Takethecake" only has 1 post!! And it was this one!! so obviously, this person came on here to start trouble.</p>

<p>The end.</p>

27

<p>Mojojojo is right, y'guys. Motion to end white admittance into Notre Dame. We're just too privileged and too oppressive to society to continue reaping the rewards of hard work and dedication. I think we've all learned a lesson here, too. The lesson is not that racism is bad, per se. The lesson is that racism is OK if its racist towards a majority group. Or if it's justified by the ignorant, elitist aims of pointy-headed liberals.</p>

28

<p>Irish hopeful,
Your sarcasm is not funny. Do you not think that others of different racial backgrounds work hard? Can you imagine what it'd be like to work hard in a racist society? Also, you are misinterpreting racism. I doubt most informed whites, like myself, would say that Affirmative Action is racism. And you need to explain your last sentence, because I think it's inconsistent the rest of your rant.</p>

29

<p>
[quote]
I've been in classes where we discuss AA with scholars who study it. Many schools will give points to applicants who have been disadvantaged in some way and gauge this from essay questions, the candidate's school's resources, the neighborhood the applicant comes from, etc. You can't judge by this internet forum. Besides, how many white kids on here specify whether or not they're poor?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>First of all, a few points is different than full AA, let's be honest. Secondly, how could you judge this based on the applications you get? If you are judging that now, you are simply being more unfair than not! Look at it this way, most colleges have need-blind admissions so admissions never sees the FAFSA. Therefore, is the only way for them to judge if you have been economically disadvantaged in your essay? What if a student doesn't put down the disadvantage? Without going into specifics, I have had some struggles in life, I have had things I could put in essays, but I didn't. Why? They are in my past, and I wanted to focus on what I brought and the future. They would have never known that I was disadvantaged in any way from my essay. I really hope they aren't just looking at the essays. Beyond that, do you really think they are looking up every person in America to figure out what neighborhood they live in? I am sorry Princess, you are a great poster, great on med school issues, but I do disagree with you here. I just don't see it happening, and if it is, it isn't being done right IMO. </p>

<p>
[quote]
I really think that whites argue race-neutral programs because they are unaware of the privilege that being white bestows upon them automatically. It's easy to see the world as race-less when you're in the driver's seat and race never becomes part of your consciousness.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This could be true, it is impossible to ever know. At what point is it not true though? Don't we eventually have to let go of it if we are to ever live in a color-blind society? I honestly believe that AA is keeping those divisions in place and is creating animosity between races. Don't believe it...look at this thread!</p>

<p>
[quote]
Also, it's important to note that though minorities may have lower SAT scores (which only weakly correlate with first year grades) ND wouldn't admit students it couldn't graduate

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This is true, but it is hard to explain that to the good student on this board who is waitlisted with a 1600 or a friend of mine who was outright rejected with being in the top 10% of his class and a 1530. What more do these students need to do? Yes, the minorities can graduate, but it is getting nearly impossible to get in if you aren't a minority or legacy.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Some people just do not have what admissions is looking for. Maybe you are just one of those people. Don't go blaming minorities right away.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This is a subtle way of saying that the OP is whinning and has no gripe. I disagree, and again, while I respect the heck out of you red, I don't think you should be so condescending on this one. When someone has stats which are favorable to a minority applicant and they don't get in but the minority does don't you think you have an argument. The OP obviously DID have what it took, because similar stats got someone else in. Also, I don't believe that because someone didn't get in that they don't have what it takes. ND rejects a lot of good people who have "what admissions is looking for" but we just don't have space for them all. I am arguing some of ND's priorities.</p>

<p>
[quote]
First of all, if a white person cant get into a school over a minority, then maybe he is just too dumb to get past what real affirmative action is all about. White people will always have better resources over minorities, even if the white person is poor.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Untrue. First of all, there is no need to insult your fellow posters. Doing so discredits your post and angers others. Secondly, how can this be? Poor white students and poor black students, for example, may go to the same school and come from similar families. Where is the advantage? You say this so surely, I am sure you have research or examples to back it up.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Second of all, Notre Dame doesnt even place racial status as "important" or "very important" factor for their decision at collegeboard.com

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Are you kidding? Go back and look at the admissions results for this year and then tell me if you believe that.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Third of all, Why the hell are you guys arguing this? ...When there is nothing you can do or say that will change it.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I wonder what the founding fathers of this nation would think of that comment. Don't ***** about the British, there is nothing we can do. No, we can do something, but it takes discussing these topics. This is not a worthless exercise in my opinion.</p>

30

<p>
[quote]
Do you not think that others of different racial backgrounds work hard? Can you imagine what it'd be like to work hard in a racist society? Also, you are misinterpreting racism. I doubt most informed whites, like myself, would say that Affirmative Action is racism. And you need to explain your last sentence, because I think it's inconsistent the rest of your rant.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I do agree that Irishhopeful may have been a bit over the top, but I take issue with a few things in this response. Yes, there are minorities that work very hard to get into this school, but there are also white students that do the same. What I am calling for is more of a fair chance for all, I think the advantages we give are too high. I actually have friends, believe it or not, who applied here saying they are white when they are in fact not. The reason: they wanted to know that they could get in on their own merits. Bravo. Unfortunately, for many minorities, the question has to be raised if they "deserve" to be here (which of course they do, they were accepted) or if they got in because of their race, and that isn't fair.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I doubt most informed whites, like myself, would say that Affirmative Action is racism.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>First of all, I love the jab in there against all those who don't have your views. That being said, I disagree, the only way it isn't is if you agree with the belief that a majority group cannot be discriminated against, and I don't. You are putting a group at a disadvantage because of the color of their skin, and at no fault of their own. What would you call that? You are informed, I am not (apparently) so I will defer to your answer.</p>

31

<p>irish, shut the hell up. Even though im pro affirmative action, im not even going to waste my time reading anything u said.</p>

32

<p>Whoa. Fine, don't read it. I am not sure what I did to set you off, but I am sorry!</p>

33

<p>OP, Maybe you didnt get in because you were NOT good enough... Im sure for the last spot it came down to you and a minority and they picked the minority.hahah get over it...</p>

34

<p>
[quote]
OP, Maybe you didnt get in because you were NOT good enough... Im sure for the last spot it came down to you and a minority and they picked the minority.hahah get over it...

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That wasn't necessary. I really hope you are not planning on coming to ND with that attitude!</p>

35

<p>mojojo69 simply cannot understand anyone who doesn't have the views that he shares! Keep turning your head, it will do you well in the real world, as opposed to seeing both sides of the argument and then making a decision. Obviously, anyone who disagrees with you is ignorant, misinformed, dumb or underqualified.</p>

36

<p>Yes, irish68178, don't you realize how uninformed you are? That's why we need people like these to come along and tell us why we should all feel guilty, and defer to, and beg for mercy from, the "disadvantaged."</p>

<p>YES! Race can be a stigma in this country. YES! White people "tend" to have more privileges than minorities. YES! It might take more hard work (see: Pursuit of Happyness) for certain individuals to overcome their origin in life. But that's part of the beauty of the American system! Because, normatively speaking, America is a very discriminatory nation: a nation that discriminates based on the "content of...character" rather than the color of skin. </p>

<p>You can look at admissions as a macrocosm of the "reality" of America's racial picture until you're blue in the face, but that doesn't change the one obvious flaw in the AA argument: it's still distributing benefits on a basis other than merit! Do any of you really understand this?</p>

<p>I might sound over-the-top, as someone mentioned. And it might even seem like I do not have sympathy for the disadvantaged. It couldn't be further from the truth. I am an overachiever, through and through, who is going to be in a monster hole of debt when I get out of this school. Certainly privilege has helped me (middle class upbringing!) but do not put me on this pedestal of elitism that some of you have proposed. My "white" privilege has not made it easier for me to pay the $45,000 tab - even though so many of the minorities I know that go here are either going here for free (scholarship) or come from wealthier backgrounds than I do. </p>

<p>That's why it bothers me so much. Because you're simply shifting the problems of America's past onto a different segment of society. You might feel more vidication - who doesn't love taking it out on the "majority" individual? - but you're still justifying that which past Civil Rights leaders insisted be stopped. I knew students from my high school with >1400 on the SAT and 4.0's; they were excellent students who deserved to go here. And they don't. All in the name of some "overriding" aim that we accomodate people who may or may not have come from more difficult circumstances. And that doesn't even take into account that many white students come from poor socioeconomic backgrounds. If AA took social CLASS into account, I might just reconsider.</p>

37

<p>Nice post Irish_hopeful.</p>

<p>I want to interject one thing to those who have called me uninformed or given me other jabs throughout the day. It is okay, I will pull them out and mock them a bit, but it weakens your argument and it makes you sound defensive. It is like you are saying that your defenses aren't enough so you resort to name-calling.</p>

<p>Next time you are tempted, think before you type or say it. Perhaps there are times when people are truly naive and it is fitting, perhaps you feel this is one of those times, I am not sure. When you are a ND student, and you are calling another ND student naive, however, it usually comes across as defensive and it makes people wonder who you think you are. It doesn't strengthen your argument in most cases, IMO.</p>

<p>Anyway, I thought I would throw that argument 101 tip out there, but if you wish to call me naive, or closed-minded, I actually won't be offended because I will take it as a sign that I am winning whatever argument.</p>

38

<p>I am loving your reaction to that person ^.</p>

39

<p>oh irish,
Get over yourself.</p>

40

<p>
[quote]
oh irish,
Get over yourself.

[/quote]

I really don't see how this comment applies. Mike isn't espousing his own virtue. He's trying to get over the name-calling and personal accusations such as this one that limit academic discussion.</p>