<p>I was waitlisted at Notre Dame, but I know that less intelligent, less qualified minorities were accepted and took my place. There's no logical reason why i should have been rejected from Notre Dame given my stats. I'm tired of minorities being given all these preferences because they happen to have a certain skin color. It's ridiculous and they're hardly ever as qualified as we are. White people always lose out. Anybody else feel cheated?</p>
<p>Overall I agree (though I probably wouldn't have worded it so strongly, lol) but at the same time I don't have a problem with affirmative action. If a person has been truly disadvantaged, I have no problem with making it an even playing field so that everyone has a chance to get in regardless of if you have had as many opportunities or not. I think that is good and practical. What I don't like is the assumption that just because you are a certain race that you have been put at a disadvantage. I personally am not a minority, I have no idea what it is like to be a minority, so take all of this with a grain of salt. What I always go back to though is that there are rich minority children and poor white children, so who is to say that the rich minority child has had fewer opportunities than the poor white child. It is probably not the case, yet the current system still puts the minority child at an advantage. That is a problem in my view.</p>
<p>Simply put, leveling the playing field is NOT an argument right now for AA, because quite simply it doesn't. The only argument nowadays is that we do it to increase diversity. I agree that diversity is good, but a question that has to be asked is how much is it worth and are we getting it? Think about it, Notre Dame accepts and gets a fair number of minorities, but what if they are not mixed with the other students. Sure they may be mixed in class, and that is good, but there are very very few programs which try to mix people of different races so what you end up with is people sitting with their race in the dining hall. Is that diversity? You tell me. </p>
<p>Anyway, I hope I haven't offended anyone, but those are my views on this topic. I actually wrote a 20-page paper on this earlier this year so if you want to hear more of the logic behind my views let me know and I will send yo u the paper. Long story short, I support affirmative action, but it should be determined on a case-by-case basis using measures like the FAFSA instead of one's race.</p>
<p>I hear you takethecake. I do agree with you to some extent, but maybe not so passionate about it. I have never experienced what it is like to be African American, or Mexican or etc , so that brings up the topic of white privilege. Personally I think it should be based on class. Because what privileges do the poor white kids who live in the same neighborhoods, same lifestyle as his/her minority peers who receive preferential treatment? not much Also, like Mike said there are also many minorities who live about as well as you could, yet they are getting special treatment over that poor white kid in the ghetto. Thats where I stand on it, I hope I never have to use that as an excuse though.</p>
<p>(chillin til 08)</p>
<p>No one's a guarantee admit at Notre Dame. So no, minorities did not take your place.</p>
<p>I don't think race should be a factor at all. To make it a factor invites one racial group to be at an advantage over another racial group. Reversing the historical trend of favoritism does not redefine racism. Meritocracy is the best system, with, as Irish mentioned, FAFSA being the standard for disadvantage.</p>
<p>
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No one's a guarantee admit at Notre Dame. So no, minorities did not take your place.
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<p>Well, maybe not technically, but I still think that this view is a bit naive. Everyone knows that I am a transfer and I was rejected the first time around, but I did have a minority friend with weaker stats get in. It does happen, and it is hard not to feel that way. Now did that person STEAL my spot...no, ND gave it to them. Is that "fair" well, that is hard to say. All I can say is it sure doesn't feel right when you have done well in the classroom and standardized tests and someone with lower qualifications gets in over you. I would never change my fate, I learned a lot from it and it made me a better person, but I still honestly don't agree with the decision. This issue is personal to me, however, due to that so take it with a grain of salt.</p>
<p>im so disgusted. you probably weren't admitted your an arrogant brat. and the statement about white people always losing out, i just had to laugh at that. (i'm white by the way). White people in the whole do not lose out, have you ever taken a history class? And do not rich white men mostly run this nation and represent most of the upper class? Don't blame minorities for your lack of admission. it's sad.</p>
<p>There's no need for name calling. If you disagree please argue your point in an intelligent and dignified fashion.</p>
<p>Wow! I'm frustrated by how little some of you college students have learned. Given the history of our nation, I am appalled that some of my fellow whites actually have the audacity to say that they feel cheated. You can't say that your ancestors were slaves or that their protected voting rights are only 40 years old. </p>
<p>And PCB, meritocracy has been a criticized theory for over a hundred years. It was first ridiculed by Irish/low-status whites and Catholics who didn't stand a chance in the Anglo-Saxon, Protestant dominated school systems. I find it ironic that someone at a Catholic University, let alone an Irish Catholic university would be so in favor of meritocracy. Meritocracy assumes that people begin from a level playing field, which today, given racial discrimination and poverty, is not the case. And those of you who argue that wealthy minorities shouldn't benefit from affirmative action: you really need to do the research because you might be appalled at how little this actually happens. </p>
<p>If many whites are so upset about preference, why don't they criticize legacy preference? More legacies are admitted to ND than minorities so chances are that the uninformed Takethecake was probably "overlooked" for a legacy who was less "qualified" than he/she was. Is it because most legacies come from white/wealthy families and so we don't care if they pass us up? Think about the racism inherent in that thinking.</p>
<p>Princess, while I see your point, you are missing the broader point as well. Are there not people from all races who are disadvantaged? Why not help those who are disadvantaged? Likewise, are there not minorities who are not disadvantaged? Granted, I am white, but I believe there are. I think Michael Jordan's son, for instance, probably had more going for him than I ever will. Why not have a system which takes that into account rather than blindly judging people by race.</p>
<p>I believe that we can all agree that what happened in our nation's history is wrong, no question. However, I believe putting someone at a disadvantage due to their skin color is wrong regardless of the circumstances, and that is what is happening today. You cannot correct a wrong with a wrong, it will never be just IMO.</p>
<p>I think the legacy issue is worth debating in this as well, I am not saying that it is any different. </p>
<p>You say you are frustrated with how little we have learned, but I am sorry that you feel the need to judge us without looking at the points or opinions. Yes, our history is marred by judging people by the color of their skin, and that is why we should stop! If we are ever going to have a colorblind society, we have to start now. </p>
<p>Why not help those who are disadvantaged regardless of skin color. If you want to stick with your argument Princess, that is fine, but just tell me why a disadvantaged, poor, white student should be put at even more of a disadvantage? Because of our nation's history? That student did nothing wrong, why are you punishing him/her for the sins of their ancestors. Should someone be put in jail if their father murdered someone and died? The logic just doesn't hold to me!</p>
<p>Race distorts socioeconomic disadvantage, the real problem of this mayhem.</p>
<p>My friend, who is Mexican, will be attending Johns Hopkins this fall. He is not disadvantaged. Originally planning to attend BU, he applied to Johns Hopkins for fun. He visited Baltimore and Boston by himself, spending a week in those two cities lavishly. Teachers tend to love him, and that is mainly because of his fantastic personality. However, he is sometimes patronized by teachers and can obtain good grades without much effort. For example, my biology teacher who taught him last year raised his grade from 88 or something like that to 92. He drives a Mitsubishi Eclipse that cost $36,000, has a wardrobe full of clothes from American Eage, Abercrombie & Fitch, etc., and possess various gadgets ranging from a fancy cell phone to a stylish laptop. Yet he complains about how he hates rich people when I bring up the issue of socioeconomic discrepancy. He is currently cruising with all Cs. He is a good guy, but he sometimes makes me sigh in disbelief.</p>
<p>So the true challenge is to effectively evaluate each applicant based on his or her socioeconomic background regardless of race.</p>
<p>Amen ManUtd. I agree that that is the real problem and that what we are doing now is just a feeble attempt to make ourselves feel better about the past instead of actually rectifying the problem.</p>
<p>takethecake, I totally feel your pain. I got into ND, yes. But I've read these forums consistently for the last two to three years. And minorities are not held to the same standard. Not by a long shot. Reverse racism is racism, too. To all of you do-gooders out there who claim that somehow affirmative action is a "positive, forward-looking, compassionate" policy or some similar BS - why don't you ask yourselves a question: what will my attitude be when it affects me? </p>
<p>Current ND students love to take the moral high road and say "well, how nice!" that minorities get to come here with less merit. (And this isn't a catch-all; obviously there are many, many smart minorities!) But when it affects their ability to get a job, look out. Many big American companies have strict diversity quotas - and there's no "white, Irish Catholic" category. That is for sure.</p>
<p>Racism is racism is racism. Discrimination in a free, capitalist society such as ours should be discrimination on the basis of merit and capability only. The best students should go to the best schools, regardless of race or ethnicity. You can cry all you want about the negative impact of socioeconomic disparity in terms of stunting minorities' intellectual and educational achievements, but how VERY condescending of you. So instead of working towards a system in which the best is truly brought out in everyone, we lower standards for people and say: "look, you're probably disadvantaged, it's ok if you're not up to our standards." And that is wrong. </p>
<p>I do not come from a privileged family. My middle-class upbringing taught me to work hard and it would pay off in life. So far, it has: I'm at ND and things are certainly looking up. But it's a shame that condescending, elitist attitudes fostered by universities and by minority rights' groups (where racism is bad!...unless it hurts YOU!) are keeping eligible students out of positions and jobs. I recognize that certain groups, and certain individuals have more to overcome in the world to get where they need to be. But if we want to help the marginalized, let's quit the social engineering and stop shifting the marginalization.</p>
<p>Actually, I'm not against the poor white kid getting preference. Many schools do take into account the socioeconomically disadvantaged in their Affirmative Action programs. Get informed about affirmative action before you make such bold assertions.</p>
<p>Irishhopeful,
I think it's incredibly ludicrous that you're arguing racism as a white person. I'm sure that you can't even begin to comprehend what minorities go through in terms of discrimination and stigma.</p>
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Get informed about affirmative action before you make such bold assertions.
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</p>
<p>Whoa. I have been on message boards like this for over 6 years now and NEVER have I seen a poor white student receive the same benefit as a minority. EVER. Give me one example from this board or any other board, one, before you make such a bold statement. </p>
<p>It is easy to argue that white people do not understand what it is like to be a minority, and you are right, but that still doesn't counteract my logic that you conveniently ignored. How does that make giving someone an advantage (or disadvantage) due to their race right? Also, if we are paying reparations, why? How can the current generation be responsible for the sins of their ancestors.</p>
<p>If someone has been discriminated against, give them an advantage, no question. Assuming that someone who is a minority is disadvantaged to me is just like saying that all minorities are poor, or something ludicrous like that. I may never know what it is like to be a minority but I also don't think you can make a blanket statement like that which applies to all minorities.</p>
<p>Case-by-case basis, that is how it should be.</p>
<p>Stigma is what one feels for being ostracized from a whole unit of society. Yes, racial dispairty and discrimination still exist in our society. But how does further drawing racial lines eliminate the "stigma" of being a minority. I would also contend that in today's America, while there is stigma to some degree on certain racial groups, there is also stigma associated with being poor - which, as mentioned, is conveniently ignored by affirmative action advocates. Don't lecture me on what I don't "understand." It's that kind of elitist attitude that looked condescendingly at people of different races to begin wtih. I believe in a common human nature and that we are all simply different representations of that one nature. Drawing racial lines - even for supposedly benevolent purposes - denies that truth and acts counterproductively towards achieving true racial - or should I say, human - unity, in the country and in the world.</p>
<p>You guys are so, so ignorant.</p>
<p>I know the effects of Affirmative Action as "reverse discrimination" as a first generation Indian-American (subcontinent, I don't like to say "asian.") In fact, it puts me at a greater disadvantage than the average caucasian. In every scenario in society, whether I'm seeking college admissions, a job opportunity, scholarships, pretty much anything where I have to denote my "ethnicity" in a box, I know that my files will be placed in a pool of individuals which higher credentials that marginalizes my chances of getting that job.</p>
<p>So why, pray then, am I not bitter about this? Well, for one thing, I believe in destiny: life is unfair, it sucks, but if things were really meant to be, then they would happen.</p>
<p>Now, in the context of Notre Dame, I know for a fact that ND isn't myopic enough to admit underqualified minorities just to wear it on their shoulder. The adcom isn't going to admit even the most under-represented candidate in the applicant pool with 1800's on the SATs in order to boast that their margins are higher. That's ridiculous. If they were to do that, then they would be putting the student at a huge disadvantage by placing him in an environment that he could not handle academically, and they would put the school at a disadvantage by admitting somebody who would put a tax on their resources in lieu of admitting somebody who deserved the opportunity more.</p>
<p>You have to accept the reality of admissions in that it is a complete crapshoot and that adcoms have a distinct formula of determining who should be admitted based on whether or not they fit the profile of the school. The best way to avoid getting shafted (and unfortunately it isn't the easiest way financially, either) is to apply to as many schools as possible and to apply early to the one that is your first choice. It's so rough, cumbsersome, and unfair, but it happens. Life's a bi*ch. accept it.</p>
<p>"I know for a fact that ND isn't myopic enough to admit underqualified minorities just to wear it on their shoulder."</p>
<p>Well.. that's where the debate comes in, because some do believe that Notre Dame does this. Take a look at the decisions forum, there is quite a large gap in stats with some of the minority acceptances.</p>
<p>right...i saw in maybe 4 cases (at most) that there were students with 26s on the ACT or 1900's that were accepted. But keep in mind; two of them were international students, and I can tell you from the perspective of somebody who has overseas relatives that the SAT standards for int'l students are MUCH different. My cousin attended the most competetive school in Delhi and was the valedictorian, yet scored an 1830 on her SAT. She'll be attending UChicago. Also, the other two admitted, from what I saw, come from remote areas of the U.S...one from Oregon and the other a Native American from NM...do not tell me that ND alone would fall for these types of URMs...ANY school would. They also had good GPAs which tend to compensate (in some rare cases) for low SAT scores, esp if they come from low-income familes who probably did not have the resources to cough up $ for prep courses unlike some of their white counterpart applicants. </p>
<p>You have to also keep in mind that the posts on CC DO NOT portray the reality of what happened in the admissions pool this year. There were like 5 minorities that posted on the ND board out of like 30 posters...does that mean that ND is adopting reverse racism? Not necessarily.</p>