<p>Students who are interested enough in MIT to have visited their admissions</a> website or signed up for MyMIT (where they submit their forms, receive their interviewer assignments, etc) cannot fail to have noticed the dozen or so student blogs (along with the admissions officers blogs, which pretty much started the whole admissions blogging trend, by the way). Reading any or several of these for even a few minutes will give any interested applicant an excellent idea of "exactly what the atmosphere at MIT currently is". I highly recommend this diversion to anyone who's sincerely curious. (Absolutely including parents, by the way!)</p>
<p>"and how does a student get an idea of exactly what the atmosphere at MIT currently is"</p>
<p>Read the MIT blogs and various posts from MIT students here. Accost kids if you do campus visit. (My son would never ever do this.) We had much the same kind of info session at Caltech - more talk about pranks and parties. I think they think you KNOW what it's like academically and want to reassure you kids have fun too. We've gotten various warnings from adults not to send our kid at MIT. He'll be miserable. They work them too hard. You do more hands on stuff other places. Professors are much more interested in their grad students. I know where these people are coming from, but I also know my kid. None of that particularly bothers him.</p>
<p>I can only speak for myself and my fiance, but we were both under 700 on the SAT I math, and both middle-class white kids from public schools. :)</p>
<p>Xiggi, I wasn't particularly trying to be inflammatory (by saying that people want MIT to stop admitting outstanding candidates), but several people on this thread have expressed distress that Intel finalists and those sorts of outstanding candidates (olympiad medalists, etc) are admitted in large numbers to MIT. The way I see it, MIT can either stop admitting those people, despite their qualifications, or they can continue doing what they're doing.</p>
<p>I'm also not trying to present an authoritative anything on MIT admissions -- I'm just a recent MIT grad who was fortunate to work for the admissions office for a year, promoting the MIT that I know to other people. I do feel that it's my obligation to speak up for people that I know to have outstanding character when they're being attacked.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Take your kid to the library after school instead of karate or ballet. Build a sandbox in the yard and put sand in it. Tell them that's their summer enrichment program....When a kid complains s/he's bored, shrug your shoulders and hand him/her a cookbook and a dozen eggs, a canister of flour and point them towards the kitchen.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Blossom, you may think you're providing a good argument against parents who complain about the admissions arms race but your post comes across as rather callous toward kids who feel unchallenged in school. There are any number of students who live for the enrichment programs that are available in summer. Go back and read NYmomof2's posts before and after her S attended CTY, for example.</p>
<p>Well, marite, let's not go too far here. I put our family squarely in the "learn to bake cookies, go hiking, play pool, doodle for hours, dive into the pool until you can do it without making a splash, build the most elaborate Lego castle you can imagine, play board games three nights a week" type family, but both of our boys spent 3 weeks each summer at CTY camp during middle school. Spending 3 weeks at CTY isn't the same as being involved in the year-round over-programming arms race blossom is complaining about, I don't think. (Or am I wrong, blossom?)</p>
<p>Chances are that molliebatmit and her fiance would no longer qualify for admissions at MIT. To have much of a chance at the very selective schools, kids need to be in the upper half of the SAT range. For MIT that means very close to an 800 math score. Probably most of the students in the bottom 25% qualify based on special circumstances: URMs, legacies, and athletes. I did check as many Naviance sites as I could access. I probably found over 50 applicants with only a very few admits. I did find one with an SAT of about 1450, the others were 1600 or very close.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Xiggi, I wasn't particularly trying to be inflammatory (by saying that people want MIT to stop admitting outstanding candidates), but several people on this thread have expressed distress that Intel finalists and those sorts of outstanding candidates (olympiad medalists, etc) are admitted in large numbers to MIT. The way I see it, MIT can either stop admitting those people, despite their qualifications, or they can continue doing what they're doing.</p>
<p>I'm also not trying to present an authoritative anything on MIT admissions -- I'm just a recent MIT grad who was fortunate to work for the admissions office for a year, promoting the MIT that I know to other people. I do feel that it's my obligation to speak up for people that I know to have outstanding character when they're being attacked.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Mollie, the problem is that your position is made clear by your last sentence: "I do feel that it's my obligation to speak up for people that I know to have outstanding character when they're being attacked." </p>
<p>For the record, one can have tremendous respect--if not affection--for individuals and still find it in their heart to express ... disappointment. Being of the opinion that there is a quite a chasm between the purported and publicized changes made by Mrs. Jones--as she sees it--and the view from an outsider does NOT amount to a personal attack. </p>
<p>Further, you also seem to miss the finer points of the debate about the Intel. You seem liking to repeat and trying to convince everyone that Intel finalist ARE de facto outstanding candidates with great INDIVIDUAL talent. This is not necessarily true as the lengthy debate on CC clearly highlighted the importance of having access to a collections of outsiders can and does make a difference. Simply stated, the unequal access and lingering questions about the integrity of the process should in itself disqualify this contest as an ADMISSION CRITERION. </p>
<p>It is one thing for Intel to decide how to spend its own money, but it is another to see a very limited contest used for a purpose for which it is absolutely unqualified. This is different from contests where the individual achievements and success of participants are easily identifiable and measurable. </p>
<p>So, yes I would hope that the Intel would never be considered for admission, but that does NOT mean that this should discriminate any outstanding students. You cannot pretend to miss something that should not be there in the first place. We have told over and over that the great students who happen to have placed well at the Intel ALSO have plenty of elements to back up their success at the Intel. So, why not rely on the holistic review and relegate the result of this competition to the non-event it should be.</p>
<p>In the end, we both have divergent opinions about a number of items. However, my conclusion remains that I simply do not see any changes at MIT that are germane to Mrs Jones crusade to give students their summers back or diminish much stress. Again, it is 100% OK for MIT to establish whatever criteria they care to use--Intel included. However, as long as as there is not a clear message that MIT is stopping to reward or even CONSIDER such programs, the "crusade" is idle talk and wishful thinking. </p>
<p>This said, I see a great willingness to bring transparency to the process and explain the direction taken. In fact, it makes it easier to evaluate the scope and impact of the changes made.</p>
<p>edad, Mollie just graduated this year and her fiance is a senior; saying they wouldn't qualify for admission now is kind of inaccurate, I think.</p>
<p>The admissions arms race is one that parents tend to engage in, especially when the kids are young and not focused on college. Boredom is what kids experience. They are two very different things.</p>
<p>I am still trying to give away some of my S's Lego and K'Nex; H and Ss' favorite activity is hiking. We're not very different from you, it would seem.
My S would not have lasted until summer without enrichment programs throughout the year, and it looks like NYmomof2's son is also having trouble readjusting to life without the kind of intellectual intensity that CTY provided him. Telling either of them to go feed ducks or learn to bake bread is not the solution to their need for intellectual challenge. even if it makes parents feel virtuous about dropping out of the admissions arms race.
It is not an either/or choice.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Go feed the ducks on the weekend w/your 6 year old instead of playing on a traveling soccer team. Take your kid to the library after school instead of karate or ballet. Build a sandbox in the yard and put sand in it. Tell them that's their summer enrichment program. Get them a shovel and some tomato plants and explain that instead of gymnastics they're going to learn to weed and plant. When a kid complains s/he's bored, shrug your shoulders and hand him/her a cookbook and a dozen eggs, a canister of flour and point them towards the kitchen.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Blossom, you and Anitaw collectively get my votes for CC posters of the month. That was basically my approach to upbringing, and it seems to have worked out just fine, both admissions-wise, and less-stressed students-wise (well, they might have had stresses, but they didn't comefrom any admissions arms race.)</p>
<p>Marite--I think it's clear that Blossom isn't talking about appopriate for ability activities such as were necessary for your S--obviously those were driven by his particular interests, not an eye toward getting into any particular school.</p>
<p>In my S's case, he developed an interest in astronomy. H and him spent many hours outside looking up, with and without a telescope, and going to meetings of local astro group. But because he was interested, not because he thought it looked good on an app--like your S.</p>
<p>Both my kids had time to sleep, to hang out with friends, to read just for fun. Both spent a lot of time when young (and not so young) playing in the sand.</p>
<p>And though bread-baking is not a necessity, I think it offers lessons in math, biology, physics, and, most importantly, wonder (no pun intended).</p>
<p>Garland:</p>
<p>Different kids need different upbringings. Mine would have driven everyone around the bend if he had not been able to have the kind of intellectual challenge he needed. </p>
<p>I have lived 50+ years without every baking a cake or bread and don't propose to start now. I could perhaps do with lessons in math, biology and physics, but these, S had absorbed in 3rd grade.</p>
<p>Marite--Your first paragraph: I think that's what I was saying to you.</p>
<p>(the kinds of lessons I was talking about are not usual third grade stuff--especially "wonder". But there are plenty of ways of imbibing them other than baking bread. Though my H the bio teacher/breadmaker thinks you can learn pretty much all science that way).</p>
<p>Hey Marite, what was in your coffee today? My kids did CTY and loved it; cried all the way home; lived for it all year. I'm not telling people not to challenge their kids intellectually.... but I see people doing crazy things to take nice, average kids and turn them into Baby Einstein, and then complaining like mad about the admissions arms race. If your kids are hungry for intellectual stimulation, give it to them. That doesn't mean drilling vocab words every night in 7th grade (yes, 7th grade) instead of letting a kid read a book when homework is done even though reading for pleasure is probably a better way to boost that SAT score....</p>
<p>I'm not attacking you by the way. Your kids sound like gorgeous, well adjusted people who created their own optimal situations. But I can't imagine you freaking out and wishing you'd enrolled them in "essay boot camp" like some of my colleagues at work if they ended up at U Michigan or Wash U instead of Harvard.</p>
<p>I think real parents who raised real kids who went to places like MIT without the benefit of cancer-curing or SAT prep should speak out. It's not out of callousness, but it's a reality check. For every Blair Hornstine there's a real person who genuinely loved to learn and explore who has also been accepted at a good college without cramming every activity known to man into their schedule at age 17.</p>
<p>Interesting statistic from my neighbor, who teaches reading in a lower school a couple of suburbs from here. She claims that a generation ago, kids who didn't go to libraries, didn't eat a meal with parents at a table, had never been to the circus, were usually disadvantaged (economically). Nowadays, she says that's the hallmark of the upper middle class. They eat dinner in the back seat of the minvan being hauled from one activity to the next; libraries are passe and time-consuming; mindless recreation is frowned upon.</p>
<p>My kids loved CTY-- but that's not the same as many of these enrichment programs (many for profit by the way.... its starts with Tumblebugs and Gymboree and Sylvan if you want to buy a franchise) which invite vulnerable parents with a checkbook to get the kid on that treadmill, stat.</p>
<p>^^---^^</p>
<p>So, Blossom, in the end, it turns that the only bad activity is playing soccer on a traveling team. Or are the activities that do not pass your lofty standards simply the ones you did not care for. Forgive me, but many kids would rather be lugged around to a soccer game than having to participate in academic programs that are mere parental ego-boosting affairs. See how quickly that got turned around ... depensing on one's vantage point! And before you jump up, please note that it is not a slight about the CTY programs; I only meant to show that different activities have different meanings to different people, and I'm not sure why you feel entitled to rank them as you did. </p>
<p>And by the way, I won't need to "get a grip on how you want to raise your kids" for a long time, but I'll be sure to remember your profound advice and ability to paint others with a supersized brush. </p>
<p>I hope you'll find plenty of people who got your "point" a lot better than I did.</p>
<p>PS I was taught to bake bread since I was four. From farmers' bread to the hard to master baguettes or ficelles. And with live yeast to boot!</p>
<p>Blossom:</p>
<p>This post is exactly what I was hoping you'd post. Thank you. </p>
<p>When my S was in 2nd or 3rd grade, I fell into a discussion with an Asian diplomat. When I mentioned that my S loved math, he immediately told me to enrol him in Kumon math classes (that was the first I'd heard of those). We researched Kumon and found the program to be joyless drill; maybe good for kids who need more practice but not for kids who do math out of love.</p>
<p>Okay, last comments on cooking: S and roommies have just invested in a 75-piece kitchen set. Maybe one of them actually knows how to cook.</p>
<p>I suspect she will, xiggi, 'cause I just don't have any problem understanding what she's saying. But maybe that's because I am a "real parent who raised real kids who went to places like MIT without the benefit of cancer-curing or SAT prep" and am speaking out as requested. :) (And by the way, my younger "gorgeous, well-adjusted" kid will be headed next year to an entirely different type and selectivity of school... wherever it ends up being. That'll be better for him, and it's all good. I could have tried to force him into activities designed to plump up his bizarre resume, but that's not my style, and wouldn't be his either. They'll want him because of who he is and what he can contribute to and gain from being part of his eventual college community, not because of some expectations he tried to meet on paper.)</p>
<p>marite, any calls from the other side of Cambridge for a copy of my college students' cookbook? ;)</p>
<p>Well, Mootmom, I guess I should be sorry for having been raised by a family of rats, and not by real parents with real kids.</p>
<p>And what was the point of of "Xiggi, I raised my kids in the way you are quick to disparage ... so don't lecture me on how many accomplishments kids need to get into elite schools. If you raise your kids to believe they are nothing more than the sum of the lines on their resume, you've got bigger problems than if your kid ends up at Kenyon or Harvard.?"</p>
<p>Who was doing the disparaging ... and the lecturing here?</p>
<p>
For the record, one can have tremendous respect--if not affection--for individuals and still find it in their heart to express ... disappointment. Being of the opinion that there is a quite a chasm between the purported and publicized changes made by Mrs. Jones--as she sees it--and the view from an outsider does NOT amount to a personal attack.
Absolutely. But I get prickly when people I care about are told that they're "hypocritical", as I imagine other people do. There have been worse things said on this thread, too -- post #62, for example.</p>
<p>I guess I just don't see the academic superstars really being relevant for the purposes of reducing stress in admissions -- there are so few of them, and they make up such a small percentage of the admit pool. The vast majority of MIT admits do not have these sorts of national awards.</p>
<p>
[quote]
marite, any calls from the other side of Cambridge for a copy of my college students' cookbook?
[/quote]
Hey, and I have a nice roomy kitchen, too, if said facilities are needed by either son. ;)</p>
<p>To all who have directed me to the MIT web site and the admissions staff blog: I really do read it regularly, old one and new, and I agree it does give outsiders a good deal of information about what is going on. Better than any others I have visited. So, I plead guilty to overstating my blah feeling after the info session; it was probably exacerbated by a 3 hr drive through the worst rain storm I've driven through in years, the tie-ups due to 3 accidents and having to go cross-country to get off the highway and onto an access road when traffic came to a halt and we were running out of time. Nonetheless, I still think a few slides featuring actual students and actual researchers talking about the work they are doing, and how students fit into the picture would have been more enlightening and exciting than just mentioning how the UROPs are available to those who want them. I was actually trying to offer constructive criticism, birds' eye view stuff. But thanks for the reminder that MIT admission staff is trying to get the word out through their blogs. (I don't want to hear about Jones's daughter though, sorry.)</p>
<p>Marite, hey baking a cake is a great way to relax and they taste better than store-bought, too. I think the educational value is a bit over-rated though.</p>