MIT Admissions Dean warns About College Entrance Stress

Parents Forum
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<p>(Sotto voce: I was surprised at the high percentage of public school kids MIT admits. 71% in the class of 2010.) </p>

<p>The admissions process is a reflection, even an indicator, of the school environment. Odds are if you feel a school's admission process is doing your child a dis-service--or that to get in your child has to be someone he or she isn't--the school isn't an appropriate placement for your child. </p>

<p>Not because the child isn't capable..but because he or she only gets four precious years or so to be an undergraduate--why waste them someplace that doesn't suit his or her particular needs, interests and learning style? You don't buy a house because the bank and the realtor tell you you're a more acceptable candidate than everyone else who applied; you buy a house because you want to live there.</p>

<p>See if anyone were irresponsible enough to let me run a university, I would do admissions like this: set minimum criteria, high or low as you want them, then just pick randomly from everyone who makes the cut. You should get a representative sample of your applicant pool; just figure out what categories they go in after you have them all on campus. Anyone play cello? No? What about violin? Ok, orchestra's out, maybe marching band...any drummers in the house? The band will want to do half-time shows...we need about six more football players..OK, raise your hand if you want to learn to block a kick or catch a pass. </p>

<p>Curriculum decisions would be the same; you wouldn't really know till a class got started what you were going to study or how many weeks it would take. About 99% of a qualified applicant pool would be repelled by this. Who wants to register for French class and end up learning Russian instead because the teacher was tired of French? Or to have a football team that loses all the time and a band people laugh at because they're both full of kids who just wanted to help out and try their hand at something new? </p>

<p>But the 99% that would be miserable at my school wouldn't apply, because the unabashed randomness of the admissions process would be a huge red flag to them. They would know that you have to be open to all the possibilities of random chance to be comfortable at my school. (But the 1% who did end up at Happenstance U. would probably feel that they were finally in a place where people understood them).</p>

<p>The same diligence should work in reverse. Don't apply to a school with high pressure admissions unless you want to spend the next four years in a pressure cooker. (And some people do want that, so let them have it.) If enough kids and parents vote with their feet, eventually you'll see change, not just in the admissions process, which is only an appendage, but in the body itself.</p>

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<p>xiggi --
[quote]
Well, Mootmom, I guess I should be sorry for having been raised by a family of rats, and not by real parents with real kids.

[/quote]
I don't know your family, but if they pushed you into over-organized resume-padding academic-overkill designed-to-be-impressive activities when you would have been just as happy diving into a pool or drawing comics or keeping track of baseball statistics, well, I don't think they necessarily served you well. I suspect from what you've said that this isn't the case, and no need to take this personally in any event: it was a more general statement. (And my "real parents/real kids" quote came directly from blossom's slightly earlier post. But you probably realized that. It's not helpful to attribute shades of meaning to my posts which aren't there, y'know? I'm not disparaging you; did something get into your coffee today, too?)</p>

<p>(PS: I keep pet rats and have for many years. They are delightfully loving, fun, curious, and smart creatures. :) "Rat" to me does not have any negative connotation, except insofar as I know it to mean something vaguely vile to others.)</p>

<p>(PPS: The quote you cite is not mine.)</p>

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<p>I think the baking cookies and skipping stones type of childhood has been eradicated in some parts of our country. Perhaps those who don't quite "get" marite's points aren't living in those places. I do, because I am. It's not so simplistic a matter as some might think to simply withdraw from the achievement race. That strategy only works if you are confident your child will have no interest in participating in certain activities at the local middle school or high school. Unless he's Freddy Adu's cousin, for example, no kid in our town who hasn't played on a select team and received professional training has a shot of making the school soccer team. So, as a parent I can say "No, we're not spending hundreds of dollars and our weekends traipsing around the state for travel soccer," but that is only an acceptable choice if my S doesn't mind not getting to play soccer at school. (Intramurals are a thing of the past, lest someone suggest that.) Similarly, as a parent I can refuse to cart my 4 year old to those private music lessons I can't afford, but if I do there's no way my D will be proficient enough at her instrument to gain admittance to the school orchestra or jazz band. Again, that choice of refusal is only a good one if my D doesn't care about being able to play well and play in those school ensembles. Problem is, by the time I figure out whether my kids will care or not, it's usually too late to opt in at that point. Drama, cheerleading, whatever--it's the same story.</p>

<p>As long as there are parents willing to go to great lengths, if I don't play the game at least a little my child will be denied certain opportunities. It could be my child will adore calculus and probability and statistics, but she won't be able to take those classes in HS unless she's in that advanced math class in fifth grade. To get in that class, having aptitude for math is not sufficient. There are too many kids attending Kumon every week who will grab those spots because they've already been taught material above grade level. Opt out of the private tutoring, and your child will likely be shut out of the advanced classes due to insufficient space.</p>

<p>I think travel soccer teams and music lessons are fantastic. That's not the point. The problem is that if a kid waits until age 11 to decide he'd like to play soccer at school, he's out of luck. That freedom to try a multitude of hobbies and sports and then chose one is essentially gone. Dabbling is a thing of the past. So many activities are intense and serious and competitive from an early age. Thus getting a few good EC's for those college applications can be rather daunting.</p>

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<p>^That's an eye opener! No one gets blocked out of band or orchestra if they're taking those classes at our high school. We have rec team soccer from grades 1-8; everyone plays. Advanced math is based on your grades, not your classmates grades--the kids at Kumon et al are generally there because they've got math issues, not because they're trying to get ahead.</p>

<p>Sometimes i think living in a low rent town with less than state of the art schools turns out to be a blessing in disguise: we have less of that stressful competition, AND we have money left over for tuition!:)</p>

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<p>Mootmom, nothing got in my coffee today, and I did not attempt to attribute any words to you, shaded or not. I was still answering to the "point(s)" made by Blossom ... the same ones that I did not "get" but still caught the intended disparaging spirit and lecturing tone. </p>

<p>It's pretty obvious from my posts to find out about the types of activities in which I participated as a youth, and the ones I supposedly was "quick to disparage." No, there were no long and mindless afternoons of quasi incarceration in the back of a Suburban or Minivan, no Suzuki classes, no fake volunteerism or forced labor at a "friend's" lab, no resume padding, and most definitely no oohs and ahhs when Duke TIP rolled into town to pick up the expected and routine quotas of high scores. There were plenty of trips to the library, to the park--and even one where duck feeding was encouraged-- and a whole lot of athletic activities once the school bell announced the end of the academic adventures. </p>

<p>And for the record, it was also easy to separate the "regular kids with regular parents" from the others. The others as in those we never saw at social or athletic meetings that had the misfortune of involving teams; they were too busy padding their darn résumé.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
^That's an eye opener!

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That <em>is</em> an eye-opener. We live in an upper-middle-class suburb with an excellent public school system that sends many kids to HYPSM et al. And yet everyone who wants to be in the band can (my son, a HS freshman, is a mediocre drummer and all he had to do was sign up) and placement in advanced classes is by dint of your grades and teacher recs. You do have to be good to get on some of the sports teams in high school (like basketball), but there are township leagues which anyone can join.</p>

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<p>Mootmom:</p>

<p>I'd love to send that cookbook to S and roommies. Trader Joe's is ideally situated to make money out of MIT and Harvard kids.
And as I thought about the group, there is a math, a physics and a bio major among them. They ought to be able to cook something edible, right? So far, they've used the blender to make milkshakes and smoothies. Why do I have the feeling that their suite's common room is going to be a very popular gathering place?</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Perhaps those who don't quite "get" marite's points aren't living in those places. I do, because I am. It's not so simplistic a matter as some might think to simply withdraw from the achievement race. ... Opt out of the private tutoring, and your child will likely be shut out of the advanced classes due to insufficient space.

[/quote]
I live in the Bay Area in northern California. To consider this area anything other than one of the epicenters of the overscheduled resume-padding arms race would be inaccurate. Yet my kids, and others they know and befriended, did not engage in that race. And have had very successful outcomes. I can't address the issue of being closed out of an advanced course for lack of space; we never had to deal with that and I haven't heard of it being any sort of issue in our local schools, and it's very disappointing to hear kids in your area are going through that.

[quote]
no kid in our town who hasn't played on a select team and received professional training has a shot of making the school soccer team

[/quote]
I hear you about soccer, but maybe soccer isn't a good example: it's become the poster sport for manic over-involved-parents dream sport. We live in CA, so how about waterpolo? My younger son decided after his sophomore year in HS to join the newly-assembled waterpolo team, 'cause he likes to swim and a few friends were going to do it. He'd never seen a game and never trained for anything athletic. But he had fun, got more fit, and was put in as goalkeeper. They played a few JV games, lost them all. This year, the team is more "official" so the school entered it in a Varsity waterpolo league. They are way, way over their heads (so to speak ;) ). They are just the 12 guys at school who want to play waterpolo; they are playing teams of kids who've been playing for several years as JV, and who tried out for the Varsity teams. So far they've lost every game, and they may not win any this year. But they enjoy playing together as a team, it's FUN for them. It's not a manic WIN WIN WIN thing for them, although they play hard and try their best. They're happy and upbeat after playing, they always stop some shots and score some goals, but it's not such an intense activity for them. And that's a good thing. And maybe the goodness is a function of the coach (and parents!) not being invested in saying that his team is "the best" in the standings?</p>

<p>This is how I want to remember his HS time: not "intense and serious and competitive", but working hard and enjoying the time. To bring this back to college apps, most of the schools he's going to apply to haven't even heard of waterpolo (I jest, but truly most of them won't care about it: it's not basketball or hockey), but he'll write it down, he did it for two years and enjoyed it. Will it make a difference to any of the schools he applies to? Who knows. He didn't do it for that reason. I'm glad he was able to be himself and find a way to navigate some pockets of insanity. I hope someday that will be a more typical experience. </p>

<p>I'm sure some of the kids are passionate about their sport, just as some are passionate about music. I suspect many of them are there because they were programmed into it by their parents for the past decade. It just doesn't have to have been that way for a student to be successful, productive, engaged, and <em>happy</em>.</p>

<p>Sorry if this is too much preaching to the choir! :)</p>

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<p>My oldest S, now in college, never gave a moments thought to EC's. Before he began applying to colleges he (or we for that matter) never heard the term EC. He took AP courses because they sounded interesting and didn't take some because they conflicted with other things he wanted to do. Let's be clear, when it came t write up the EC's we were stunned. He turned out to be quite accomplished. Some "EC's" were world class others were just fun. The point is, however, he never gave it a moments thought as it related to college. He did not even think about college applications until the summer of his senior year. He got into his first choice school and is deliriously happy there. I'm happy he took that approach and now that my younger S is a HS freshman we are taking a similar approach. He is simply to do what he likes and have fun. We are firm believers that everything will be just fine. Our motto is "nothing beats fun."</p>

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<p>how funny......... i almost cracked up................</p>

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<p>Like idad, I have a son who did things his own way.</p>

<p>He never participated in an organized extracurricular activity after 9th grade because he thought they were "Mickey Mouse [synonym for cattle excrement]." Instead, he messed around with computers and worked at part-time jobs so he could buy better computers. He also insisted on choosing a high school curriculum that appealed to him, insofar as the graduation requirements would allow it, even to the point of taking non-honors courses in subjects that bored him while simultaneously taking APs in subjects he liked.</p>

<p>He is a happy student at his first-choice college, which is a flagship state university.</p>

<p>I wonder though, whether his approach to life would have worked if he aspired to colleges more selective than the state university.</p>

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<p>It's amazing that not one of you seems to have a child who engaged in an extracurricular activity or took an AP class for any reason other than pure enjoyment and the love of learning.* Not one child of yours appears to have given a single solitary thought to the need to achieve in order to gain admission to a good college. All were bright kids who just worked hard because that was who they are and they would have perished without the intellectual stimulation. College applications and their lines and spaces never entered their minds for one second. Simply amazing I say. I wonder who ARE those parents and children Marilee is talking about?</p>

<p>*(except maybe curmudgeon, because I think he may have admitted to the possibility of mixed motives here and on another thread)</p>

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<p>It depends on the kid.</p>

<p>My kid #1, whom I discussed earlier, would never, ever have done anything for the purpose of college admission. He is one of those people who does things his own way or not at all, and he doesn't seem to mind living with the consequences of that approach to life.</p>

<p>My kid #2, now a senior in high school, is from an altogether different species. She has definitely made academic choices and EC choices with college admissions in mind. </p>

<p>Different strokes for different kids.</p>

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<p>GFG...see earlier strand...my kid is taking AP courses (against my advice-4-including a bear of an APUSH course) because he wants to. He doesn't lack for ecs...getting him to stop is a MUCH bigger problem (and I'm not being facetious...it really is because he needs much more sleep than he's getting and it makes him grouchy). He doesn't do it for college but because he wants to...he loves being busy and he loves what he's doing..his problem is figuring out what is just too much. He is not focused on colleges or conservatories at the moment...he's just being a fifteen-year old kid. There are tons of kids like mine..he's not alone.</p>

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<p>Im sorry but give me a break.</p>

<p>You guys keep going on about kids resume padding becuase their doing so well in school. Yes, I imagine there are kids who do resume pad, and parents that are right there with them doing it. Theres no doubt about it.</p>

<p>Yet despite that I've gone through this whole highschool experience and cant honestly say I regret what I did.</p>

<p>Yes I played club in southern california soccer (one of the most competitive areas). I played for 14 years, and no my parents never pushed me into it. You act like kids who DO stuff should be scolded; yet I had some of the most fun while playing soccer (oh, and we were in the top 16 for the state). I traveled all over for soccer games have a caseful of trophies and such and I did it becuase I LOVED it as did the other players on my team.</p>

<p>I no longer play soccer competively. Why? Becuase I came within a hairs breath of needing knee surgery due to an injury and developed a tendon problem w/ my knee. **** happens. </p>

<p>I went on to highschool and set my goal. I decided I, not my parents, I, wanted to be valedictorian of my school. Stupid and self-centered; sure but whatever. I wasnt the "smart" kid, and I sure as hell was never the kid whose family had "connections." I took APs not only becuase of the GPA, but becuase generally the teachers at my public HS who taught APs had a general passion for teaching and are some of the best people Ive met in my life.</p>

<p>I didnt even think about college until junior year once I realized I could actually have a shot at some higher schools. My previous "dream" colleges were UCLA and Texas Tech (I saw that form a letter I wrote in the eighth grade).</p>

<p>The problem parents have is that they want to blame the system and not themselves. They want to blame the dissapoint and frustrations that their children experience on the continually rising bar of "excellence" at schools. Its not the admissions commitees fault; its parents who try to tell their children how to live their lives. </p>

<p>I am not a "stat padder"; Im not a "bookworm"; Im a person. I earned everything that I have recieved through my own effort, and so too have the majority of students going to MIT/Harvard etc. </p>

<p>PS Yes I have met [edited out for language - Mod JEM] who feel that "brilliance" is measured in books, but that is the exception and not the rule.</p>

<p>PSS I dont doubt that Mootmoms children have had the success she says they have becuase theyre likely kids who have been given the freedom to find the fields they are passionate for. They do the work becuase THEY want to.</p>

<p>Sorry, but I just think its disgusting that many here lable kids as deprived and unable to choose their paths. Some put in the effort becuase its actually what they want to do; and thats by no means the necessity for everyone.</p>

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<p>"It's amazing that not one of you seems to have a child who engaged in an extracurricular activity or took an AP class for any reason other than pure enjoyment and the love of learning.* Not one child of yours appears to have given a single solitary thought to the need to achieve in order to gain admission to a good college. All were bright kids who just worked hard because that was who they are and they would have perished without the intellectual stimulation. College applications and their lines and spaces never entered their minds for one second."</p>

<p>Amazing but true. Wish you could meet him.</p>

<p>SLAK: Way to go kid. Congratulations on a great start to a good life.</p>

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<p>LOL. I'll bite. I know my son took APUSH because the school told him to. He's in AP Economics because it seemed like the least boring of the AP options the school offers that are left. This year we were waffling between AP and Honors English while my son really wanted to do the Elective in Myths and Legends. Well scheduling conflicts allowed my son the English course he prefered, amusingly he is extremely frustrated by his classmates who aren't reading the books. So he also knows why we were pushing for more challenge in that department. (But at the same time we were not overly upset since most of his other courses are AP or post AP and he really doesn't like English courses.)</p>

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<p>Marite,</p>

<p>My biologist dh, who didn't learn to cook until grad school, said recipes were just like chemistry protocols.</p>

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<p>I'm not sure if this is the right thread to admit this, but I am not ashamed to say that both my kids had SAT prep. So maybe they qualify as "packaged" kids in the eyes of CC posters and not the real deal. (My d. did a standard course, my son just had a tutor for verbal because he didn't need the math but his soph. year practice PSAT verbal was surprisinly mediocre--- he never was a novel reader). For both kids, their biggest problem was the timed factor---there must be something genetic, as they are both slow workers. They both had to really practice just to be able to finish the tests. Both ended up as National Merit Finalist/Scholars, both only took the SAT just one time, both raised their combined Math and verbal scores over 200 points, and my son ended up with a 2400 (old SAT plus writing).</p>

<p>So, ....all this was done to purely to maximize their chance of getting into the college of their choice. No other educational reason (altho my son used to say that he really found that the vocab expansion stayed with him and made its way into his writing). So while my kids genuinly loved high school and the activities they were involved in, and took AP's for the challenge and in order to be in classes with their friends, we (I) was very well aware of how things worked and that awareness was factored into the guidance we gave them.</p>

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<p>
[quote]

My biologist dh, who didn't learn to cook until grad school, said recipes were just like chemistry protocols.

[/quote]

Haha, I totally agree! This is one of the reasons I like cooking/baking so much -- it's just like what I do at work, only more delicious. :D</p>