<p>GFG : Sounds like hell on earth. And your d is an athlete, correct? There goes a huge chunk of study time + the physcial demands of her sport. It would be ironic if after all this science/math push she decides to study Renaissance Lit in college....</p>
<p>I really believe that the number of kids who NEED the challenge of AP physics as 9th graders is very, very small.</p>
<p>Too bad the sweatshirt I wore this morning is not the right shade of red.</p>
<p>Katie needs to lay off the Grey Goose.</p>
<p>It's very different where we live too. The middle school does no tracking though some kids go to HS with Algebra I and French or Spanish I completed. HS is also not tracked. There was one honors course, total, that will be an AP instead this year. There may be 8 total AP couses, but they can't be taken until Jr. year and then only with faculty reccomendations.</p>
<p>My son has an hour or two of homework a night, sometime a little more, sometimes a little less. He does a little on the weekends but rarely more than a few hours. He has plenty of time for ECs, dance lessons, friends and watching The Simpsons. He almost always gets 8 hours of sleep a night.</p>
<p>My husband has always felt our son was at a disadvantage due to lack of tracking in his school system. True, he has had some boring classes to deal with, but reading these descriptions, I'm grateful he's had a more laid-back life. I could be fooling myself, but I think he has a great shot at most or all of the 10 excellent LACs where he's applying. But he's not interested in Ivies, MIT, etc. That probably helps.</p>
<p>The GFG--first of all, let me say, I (and plenty others) definitely care about your D's hours. It truly seems excessive for a student her age. I have a lot of sympathy for her.</p>
<p>Some people have made the comment that it's disengenous for people like me to say we don't push kids to do the right things to get into the right schools,since obviously the schools they get into are important to us.</p>
<p>I'd like to explain what I mean. It was, without a doubt, very important to me that my kids get into schools which were the best for them. But I wanted them to get in for who they were, not how much they did. They always did well in school because that was important to them;but if doing as well as they could put them in line for less "selective" schools, then so be it. They needed to be in the best places for them, not the best places period.</p>
<p>I think, after reading your posts, that we were very lucky not to live in a school district like yours. In ours, no one takes AP science until they've done HS level, and physics comes after bio and chem. All kids can be in the band and chorus. My kids stayed up till 1 every once in the while, but it certainly wasn't the norm.</p>
<p>Yet, they did get into very selective schools. Where they have thrived. I don't know that they would have gotten into them if they had gone to the school your D goes to. They might have decided it wasn't worth it. It makes me think that high schools like that may sometimes be harmful.</p>
<p>So, though i've worried that I under-prepared my kids by living in a less competitive school district, more and more I really do believe, all facetiousness aside, that it may have been the best thing for them.</p>
<p>Where my comments tie in with the original post is that in affluent suburban schools it can be pretty tough to earn even a school-level honor or leadership position. For example, at our school do you think a student who is not at least in the second-highest track has a shot at Val or Sal? Nope, weighted honors and AP classes preclude that. Academic honor societies? Nope. Take the math honor society. The student would have had to have reached calculus level (membership requirement) by junior year for it to matter for college admissions, thus necessitating that math sequence, so no. I could go on. Being captain of a sports team? Easier to do, since sometimes most seniors get named, but you do have to actually make the team first! (see soccer comments) Getting elected president of a club? A definite possibility but only if you're more capable/popular than the 30 other bright and ambitious kids who want to be top dog too. </p>
<p>So, what can be done? I feel brave enough to take small steps as a parent. My D recently said she didn't want to join any clubs in HS, not one. I said "OK, honey." D said she didn't want to run for class office either. I said, "That's fine." Told D she should consider dropping the in-school EC to take a study hall. Said she didn't want to. I said we'd revisit the possibility in a few weeks. Relapsed and asked her how she planned to demonstrate leadership and volunteerism for college apps. She said she'll probably volunteer in the church nursery. I let it go, for now.</p>
<p>GFG: How big is your d's school?</p>
<p>Wow. I admit my older son is super bright, but except for when he's procrastinated with a paper he's never spent more than two hours on homework. He gets As in everything but English and 5s on all the AP exams and 97 or better on all the Regents exams so I think the school is doing an okay job covering the material. Only his AP courses are college textbooks. NY requires an arts elective so he's done that one year, and AP computer science was an elective one year by choice. I guess his elective his an extra science course this year, but we didn't feel pressured for it to be a science course. </p>
<p>My younger son is suffering more in the sleep department. He's doing the arts program which involves two periods of music (orchestra) every day. It also involves going to school for a period before the regular school starting time. He's always had more homework than his older brother. In part it seems to be a real change in the curriculum, but also in part because he's not quite so naturally "brilliant". He's got a far better work ethic though.</p>
<p>My S has very little leadership (captain of Scholars Bowl team 2yrs, directing school plays 2yrs), ran for class president and lost (he plans to turn it into a humorous essay, because of the way the admin. censored his posters) and almost no volunteering, maybe 20 hours total. I still think he's going to do fine in admissions, though I plead guilty to mentioning the volunteer issue to him once or twice.</p>
<p>Is it very important, the GFG, to you or your daughter that she get into a crazily selective school? There are lots of great schools out there that don't require this level of frantic-ness. Read "Colleges That Change Lives".</p>
<p>We transferred from an intensely competitive public school district (complete with a cheating culture that neither my husband nor I could stomach) to a school that appeared much more sane. I'm now convinced that sanity does not reside in my neighborhood. I would be thrilled with a school that assigned less homework, applied less pressure and allowed for more sleep. Tell me where that is and I will go. I was under the impression that this is high school now for everyone...regardless of where they want to go to college or where they live.</p>
<p>Oh, and PS...no one in our school...no matter how brilliant they are...gets away with homework in two hours. It is not humanly possible..my sons do not obsess or procrastinate...and they don't have to study all that much...it's just the amount of material they have to get through...it's crazy.</p>
<p>The GFG:</p>
<p>Just a reminder that ECs do not have to be school-based. It's absolutely fine to volunteer in the church nursery.</p>
<p>You know, the crazy thing is, the more APs etc. the high schools offer, the more kids and parents think they have to take because of colleges saying "the most rigorous curriculum offered" or word to that effect. Some HSs offer no honors or AP classes and the colleges don't penalize them for that. I know because the D of a friend just got in to Harvard with no AP or honors courses. Her school didn't offer them.</p>
<p>This situation sounds out of control and I do feel for your kids and for you as parents watching them go through this. Better they should homeschool themselves than put up with this nonsense. It's not healthy physically or emotionally for kids to have this kind of pressure.</p>
<p>We did push our D in one area - - no late night studying. She rarely had any problem with that. Except for reading, she rarely spent more than a couple of hours/night on homework and studying. I am not sure that was a good thing. Now that she is in college and has a heavy schedule, she needs to learn to study and concentrate for long periods of time. She is learning study skills that she should have used in HS. On the other hand, she did learn how to be efficient in studying.</p>
<p>In our broad region, there are 3 classes of high school:</p>
<p>(1) Two equal categories
(a)high-powered, high-rent publics, populated by ambitious students and/or (LOL) ambitious parents.
(b) rigorous privates, mostly secular, with a similar student body to (a) </p>
<p>(2) low or lower rent publics, which are viewed as a "joke," as their standards are very low & their student bodies mostly below standard in achievement.</p>
<p>(3) parochial schools.</p>
<p>For class #(1) there would be no way that one could even pass, let alone excel, with < 3.5 hrs. homework/per night. 5-6 hrs/night is the standard (even with no AP's or Honors)</p>
<p>For class #(2), you can often get by with 3 hrs. or less per night. (There is no middle-level public school around here; very high or very low is what you get, & what you pay for, tax-wise.)</p>
<p>For class #(3), if you are lucky or unlucky enough to get a demanding curriculum (depending on your desires), you may be studying 3-5 hrs/night.</p>
<p>Of course, I do wonder how a fatigued student is affected, efficiency-wise. I don't retain well, concentrate well, when I'm exhausted. Students(including my own D) often arrive home after several hours of e.c. activity -- some of it physical), then a tiring commute. But overall, I agree with symphonymom. That's the pattern here, too. It's unheard of to be attending a rigorous school and "relaxing" through high school. I try to encourage my D to give herself a lot of down time during breaks (even when there's homework), and naturally during summer. We've kept summers as unstructured as possible since she entered h.s., as she needs it both practically & emotionally.</p>
<p>
<p>... I simply cannot believe that parents capable of perfect logical thinking can't swing their attention to something that is practically hitting them in the face. WE'RE ON A COLLEGE FORUM, for god's sake, if these people (these "grade-grubbing", "resume-padding", "overbearing" monster-parents) were anywhere they'd be HERE, inquiring about their kids' chances and spreading their awful, slimy influence over our pristine boards. But who IS here, instead? Parents who claim not to care a smudge about their children getting into college. Either you guys are knee-deep in denial or you're overreacting like madmen.</p>
<p>I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and conclude that these misguided parents of doom are so far in the minority that in physics, we'd just use two less-than signs and call them negligible.
Pebbles,</p>
<p>Let me reassure you that my description of education in my community was accurate. Of course, feel free to disregard my description - after all, I specifically said it might be unusual - but I am puzzled by the intensity of your skepticism and concern. Overall, I agree with Epiphany that some schools or school districts are more focused on college than others. As a result, parents and students in the former schools become more caught up in an ever-escalating race to "be the best." In some communities, the competition manifests more in public schools. In others, it occurs more in private or prep schools. In my community, this competition is more dramatic in the public schools.</p>
<p>Our community has a higher than average amount of middle/upper class incomes. Our public schools are heavily into AP/honors classes and gifted programs, and a high percentage of high school graduates attend 4-year colleges after graduation. The frenzy to get on the right track begins in first-third grade when the initial gifted program students are selected. There is a perception that if your child isn't selected, it will hurt them throughout their education. The perception is correct in part because the best teachers teach in the gifted program and having a good teacher makes a big difference.</p>
<p>Pebbles, I think you might be giving websites like CC and the people who frequent them too much credit. CC may seem widely known to you but it's not well known by average Americans. In our town, most high school students are too busy studying and participating in ECs to locate or spend time at a website like CC, and their parents are busy with dual careers and supporting the busy lives of their children. I don't know anyone in my community who has even mentioned CC or a similar website, and like Calmom I learned about CC after our son was already in college.</p>
<p>I guess our school system would probably fit Epiphany's class #2. Our students average below state levels. But last year's val is at Yale, and other students I know of got into Cornell, Georgetown, and BU, and other selective schools this year, and plenty more other years. Coming from this HS, my kids ended up at Columbia and Wesleyan. No, they didn't take Calc in junior year, or do most of the things that a lot of all your school systems require. Yet they do fine in the selective colleges.</p>
<p>Colleges judge a student's record on what was available to them, not what kids from other high schools do. So, my S graduating with 6 APs was considered extreme here, but would be middle of the road somewhere else. And it didn't seem to count against him in admissions.</p>
<p>The downside, to be honest, is that my kids probably had gaps in their educations compared to their college classmates. No Calc BC here, no Euro History. I think, though, that overall, they're better off for the differences, especially after hearing these pressure cooker stories. ANd for them, a lot of learning happened outside of school, which made up somewhat for what they "missed".</p>
<p>Pebbles, even in a community like mine where the stress seems pretty intense for high-achieving students, lots of kids and their parents here escape the pressure-cooker phenomenon almost entirely. There are always going to be families too caught up in their own selfishness, dysfunction, health issues, and economic struggles to be able to care about college issues. Kids who need basic skills, resource room, and summer school also aren't worrying much about getting into MIT; their parents are probably stressing over whether they'll meet HS graduation requirements. Also, there are plenty of children who just never enter the competitive fray at all. One finds them hanging around the park after school with their friends--doing nothing or doing what they shouldn't. Obviously, admission to a select college is not foremost in their minds.</p>
<p>This rat race affects the bright, motivated child who wants to excel in the academic realm. He may just enjoy learning, he may aspire to a demanding profession which entails high academic achievement, he may want the prestige of an Ivy education, or all of the above. But as DRJ points out, the "race" has a lot of complex components. A huge benefit to the more strenous classes is better teachers. This is especially critical in a subject like math where qualified teachers are in short supply. It's not just about amassing GPA points, it's about a child getting an appropriate education for his abilities and it's about fighting to ensure he will learn well within the school system as it exists.</p>
<p>epiphany, I find it difficult to believe that the public HS's in your area require 5-6 hours of homework per night to excel and over 3 just to pass. I don't care what part of the country you are from. Certainly, average or even well above average HS students just do not work that hard. Nationwide, I would be surprised in the average HS student did much more than an hour a night of actual study.</p>
<p>Big difference, garland, between mediocre publics in the same region(s) as those selective schools, and the samel level of public in a less well-known region. (And the same could be said for parochial schools.) Only the truly exceptional achiever in a lackluster public from our area gets admitted to HYP & similar. Most of them are lucky to be admitted as freshmen to the flagship publics.</p>
<p>The high-rent public grads go overwhelmingly to the flagship publics, and a very tiny amount go to HYP & similar. (Admits to the latter are less, percentage wise, than admits from well-known secular <em>privates</em> from the same region, including those a mile away. Generally it's the same absolute amount, but a big difference in the relative number from rigorous publics vs. rigorous privates in the same dense region.) When you think about it, that makes sense. The rigorous privates are virtually comprehensively rigorous, whereas the comparable privates have similar student bodies, but uneven strengths in the demands of their classes -- & particularly when it comes to grade inflation. </p>
<p>We've seen this time and time again.</p>