<p>If Clark would include the schools in her analysis of the problem and acknowledge their part in the insanity, I'd be on her bandwagon. That's why I like Jones. She identified a problem and then asked, "what can I do to make it better?" That's the question everyone in education has to ask themselves...from the families, to the teachers, to the schools, to the adcoms, to the universities...everyone is part of the problem and everyone has to help solve it. Parents can only do so much...although I am considering a move to Mill Valley:)</p>
<p>Conyat...exactly...across the board...we can't say a word. And the school doesn't want to hear our opinions...I keep my mouth shut (which is why I'm here on this board...I have to discuss this somewhere).</p>
<p>GTG,
My son attends a top private day school and will complete 12 APs by the end of senior year. That will put him near the top, but the school offers over 20, so one could take more (14 is the record). In his case, the number is slightly misleading as his school does not offer any APs till 10th grade, and then only two, and he maxed out in math and foreign language in his junior year. This year he's taking a direct studies course for his language (since he already took the two APs offered) and an Advanced Mathematics Seminar (for those who have completed APCalcBC but want more math). </p>
<p>He actually worked harder, and longer, Sophomore year (when he had only 1 AP) than he did last year (when he had 6). Sophomore year it was typical for him to be up past 1 am working on Chem homework. Last year only Calc was time consuming. There was a lot of reading, but he was usually done by 10. He never really complained because he liked the classes and understood that the workload was necessary to get through the material. I think it's a mistake to think that all kids taking a lot of APs do so to impress Adcoms --those classes are often more interesting, fast-paced and in depth than regular classes.</p>
<p>Calmom wrote: "My overall observation about AP courses is that they generally made it more difficult for kids to actually learn and apply critical reasoning skills than their Honors-counterparts. For example, the 11th grade Honors English syllabus involved reading all those classic works of American lit that you expect high schoolers to have (Faulkner, Hemingway, etc.) The 11th grade AP English was focused on teaching writing mechanics to prep for the AP-English language exam."</p>
<p>That's too bad! My son's AP English class read great literature (including spending at least three weeks on Gatsby) and wrote very thought provoking analytical essays about the books. Only the week before the AP test did he have them prepare for the exam! Unfortunately, some teacher do "teach to the test" instead of teaching the material. But not all teachers do that.</p>
<p>Are these kids who sleep 3-6 hours a night driving around in cars? I hope not.</p>
<p>Our high school offers 22 APs, but no one takes that many. I believe my son was the only freshman in his class to take an AP (Computer Science) which turned out to be trivial for him. He took AP Bio sophomore year. APUSH, AP Physics C, and AP Calculus junior year and he's taking AP Latin, AP Econ (macro only), AP Chem this year. He's also taking a differential equations class. That's 8 AP exams (or 10 if you count physics and math as two). He's gotten fives on all of them. He's not putting in ridiculous hours either. Some of his friends though seem to have had much more work - especially those in the AP English courses. Given that there are 38 AP Scholars, 7 AP scholars with honors and 19 Scholars with distinction, there are at least 19 kids who took at least five exams, but no way for me to know how many more.</p>
<p>I also used to lament our school system compared to our friends experiences in the tony suburbs of Boston, New York and Philadelphia. Ive done a 180-degree turnaround. Like Bethie said, Vermont really is different. At my daughters school, there is AP English, Spanish, Bio, US History and Calc. No student has ever self-studied for an AP, and the only ones who took an AP test without the class are a few kids in the statistics class. There are usually 3 to 10 graduates each year who get into selective schools (maybe 2 Ivies). Lots of kids are bored in middle school; some of them drop out academically in HS. I would guess maybe a couple would want the type of schedule Im hearing here. There are many times I look at what she is doing and fear that she will be unprepared for college (for example, up to this year she has never had to do a research paper).</p>
<p>I took a lot of history classes in college, and so I looked closely at what she was doing in AP US last year. Its the only AP class I can comment on, and Id say the amount of memorization and the lack of depth and analysis bear no resemblance to any college class I took. She worked hard in that class, and last year was a rough year but she never had 5-6 hours of homework every single night. She works hard, but not excessively and watches TV, listens to music, goes to the movies, browses the Internet and hangs out with friends. She will not look back at hs in a fog of little sleep and constant activity. And Im glad. And Im thrilled to hear that calmoms daughter is surviving at Barnard with what sounds like a somewhat similar experience.</p>
<p>What really strikes me about this conversation is the huge chasm we seem to have in our education system. On the one hand we have ninth-graders taking college-level physics classes (which is totally absurd), and on the other hand we have ninth-graders who cant read beyond an elementary level. There are newspaper stories about the high percentage of kids who fail to make standard; stories about HS kids who have no homework. And then I hear about your kids, who have a schedule more rigorous than most college students do (who often only take four classes at one time). There are thousands of students who take remedial reading and writing in college (front page of the NYTimes recently).</p>
<p>I know that there are kids who are brilliant (in parenthesis for curmudgeons sake) who can handle AP physics in ninth-grade and calculus in tenth-grade. But the vast majority of kids shouldnt be taking that schedule. If you need to work 6+ hours a night and stay up to 3 a.m. to get the work done, then I question whether you are ready for that level of work. High school is high school and college is college for most kids. HS teachers should be able to offer a challenging curriculum that isnt tied to the AP test. I had teachers like that in HS, so I know its doable, and prepared me quite well for college. </p>
<p>Taking this back to original topic, which is that the MIT dean is concerned about the pressure cooker of these competitive high schools, this discussion proves she is right. This stuff is crazy. Some of these bright kids are getting burnt out much too soon. Yes, some of these kid want this schedule. Some of them would be bored to death in my daughters HS. But I bet the vast majority would be thrilled to have a more reasonable balance.</p>
<p>Our HS offers 25 APs, and in the magnet program, a lot of post-AP courses. Most kids I know don't go for racking up AP courses -- they make take an AP, but self-study it or take other electives that will help them cover the material. A couple of APs which are usually taught as full-year courses are offered as one semester classes (Stat, Comp Sci AB), which my son liked. </p>
<p>My older son took three APs as a sophomore (BC Calc, Comp Sci AB and Government), will take three as a junior this year (World Hist, Stat and English) and five as a senior - Macro, Micro, Comp Gov't (all one-semester classes), and Physics C. Based on other kids I know at this school, this is about average, though many in the magnet take a second science AP. </p>
<p>On the other hand, the school offers five semesters of math post-AP BC Calc. To my son, the AP was the ticket to get what's behind the curtain!</p>
<p>My younger son (freshman) is at a competitive admission full IB diploma program. The testing there is TRULY insane. Kids take IB <em>and</em> AP exams in the same subject to cover their bases among the colleges to which they are applying. In May, some kids are in exams from 6:30 AM til 5 PM. I am hoping my son will see the wisdom of only taking APs for classes he cares passionately about and that IB won't cover. Would LOVE to see colleges take a stand on this one!</p>
<br>
<blockquote> <p>Would LOVE to see colleges take a stand on this one!>></p> </blockquote>
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<p>If parents don't like their kids to be taking so many APs, then don't let them take so many APs. Why should colleges tell parents how to be good parents? Don't parents have any backbone or common sense? </p>
<p>Adcoms should really be in the business of telling students what it takes to get into college, but if parents choose to make their kids be pawns in an arms race, the onus is on parents to stop doing so. Parents, not colleges are responsible for raising their own kids.</p>
<p>Sorry to sound harsh, but I'm beginning to appreciate Jhsu's rants against what he called the high performance cult.</p>
<p>Sorry for posting so often, but I was telling my S about this thread and he was incredulous around the idea of high school kids having to take four years of college level courses in order to qualify for college. Doesn't happen here. Kids from our HS go to Brown, Dartmouth, MIT, Amherst, Stanford and most other schools, though HPY not as often. Does happen, but not every school every year. S got great test scores and APs. Does read a lot, but his school has also prepared him well in many respects.</p>
<p>I'm trying not to sound judgmental here. I hope the kids are pushing themselves this hard because they want to. I'm sure that's often the case, but...is this really necessary?</p>
<p>Who says these kids get 3 - 6 hours of sleep per night? S2 is in school from 8:00 -- 2:30. He has after school activities which take 1 -2 hours most days. He starts homework around 5:00, takes a break for dinner, and may work until 10:00. Would it be better if he watched TV instead? The only complaint he ever has is the reading for English. He really likes to read, but would prefer to read novels of his own choosing. (Has anyone read "The Last of the Mohicans"? -- it's stultifying.)</p>
<p>The dilemma we face as his parents is that he WANTS to take these classes. I do think that kids at prep schools internalize some goals that I never did in my public HS. If he takes less challenging classes, he is not in classes with his peers. As his parents, though, we are keeping a close eye on his outlook and stress levels. If things begin to build up for him, he's down a level in at least one class, regardless of what he says. </p>
<p>I think the challenge for bright kids is learning their own limits -- mine just seem to drive themselves too hard sometimes.</p>
<p>I feel that I should also add that we don't allow the kids to have paid employment during the school year. Actually, older s didn't get a job until the summer before college -- I'd rather they volunteered or played video games.:) </p>
<p>Calmom, I think the necessity for AP preparation for college is probably dependent on proposed major. If a kid is interested in math or science, I think he or she is at a serious disadvantage without AP Calculus BC and AP Physics/Chemistry. Most of the kids who end up at selective colleges will have had those classes and I would hate to face Chem 1 without the proper background.</p>
<p>beth: I sure hope they are not driving.</p>
<p>I've been exposed to a lot of AP courses over the last couple of years, and I take issue with some of the generalizations I have seen posted here. If I may offer a couple of opinions:</p>
<p>There are two different AP English classes/tests. One is Language and Composition, the other is Literature and Composition. Lang studies different styles of writing; some of the reading that instructs along those lines was a little deadly (Bosworth's London Journals comes to mind), but overall S got a good deal of exposure to types of writing that most kids never study. Lit promises to do a lot more in-depth reading along with longer writing assignments, but I can't report on that yet, as the semester is only one month old. My assessment of the English courses is that they have helped S become quite a good writer, he has read a lot of different kinds of literature, but most of the analysis has not been as searching as college courses. So, good as high school courses, but not substitutes for college courses. World and U.S. History and Govt (US and Comparative): son learned a lot. He has developed a good base for further study. Frankly, most high school teachers do not have a deep understanding of history, and the kids are better off getting an overview that requires a lot of writing and research about broad topics, which these courses did. Science and math were good. AP Bio easily matched, even exceeded my lower-level undergrad biology courses. Physics C (mechanics) was good as far as it went, but the school does not offer Physics C (E/M), the other half of the course, so S is self-studying that. Students who complete Calc BC with a score of 5 have an easy time of Calc 3 at the large university in town. They beat the pants off the college students. What's to complain about?</p>
<p>Now, I quake at the thought that Xiggi might reappear and accuse me of being an overbearing parent, but here goes on the request to report on other parents' kids AP records:</p>
<p>large public school, small city with large university: Son had 9 AP by end of 11th grade, all but one a 5. (3 in Latin, taken in 10th grade to get it over with); is enrolled in 2 more in 12th grade, along with 1 fun elective and 1 PE course, and takes 2 courses at the university (Russian and Calc 3 this semester). Is self-studying Physics C (E/M). He works 2 afternoons a week, is finishing his Eagle scout, does science and math teams, goes camping and hangs out with his friends. He is usually in bed by 11, always by 11:30. I stay up to make sure. (If he drives tired, his truck will be history, and he knows it.)</p>
<p>Now, that is not a normal record in these parts. (My 9th grade daughter will not be following in his footsteps.) However, he is not alone. He and his friends enjoy these courses, they meet regularly to work together and are very supportive of each other. The English and History/Govt classes put a premium on classroom discussion and debate, and the teachers tell me they LOVE teaching these smart, involved students. Every student in the AP classes has chosen to be there; there is no tracking, and the counselors at this school NEVER take the time to contact parents and suggest classes. The school does very well in the National Merit and Presidential scholar fields, if that is relevant.</p>
<p>This course of high school study has worked for this particular kid. He is smart, he is driven, he is interested in all matters intellectual. It would NOT work for most kids, and it probably would not work for kids doing competitive level sports, where their schedules are not their own. Parents need to take an honest look at their kids, ask them what they want to do, and change schools if at all possible if that is what it takes to get a program that is right for them. Schools that push AP physics on very young high-schoolers do so because they think it makes them look good; the only way they will learn otherwise is if they pay the price. DO NOT let your kids stay up late every night so their schools can brag about their super duper students.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I'm trying not to sound judgmental here. I hope the kids are pushing themselves this hard because they want to. I'm sure that's often the case, but...is this really necessary?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>My kid took what some consider the two toughest APs as an 8th grader;he did not think of it as pushing himself hard, or in fact, even pushing himself at all. This was a level he was comfortable at. If kids are happy taking multiple APs, that's fine. I am dismayed, however, by parents who say that their kids do so because everyone else in their community does and they wish that colleges would step in and tell them to stop.</p>
<p>Colleges ask that students take the most rigorous curriculum available. It does not mean that if the school offers 22 APs, students are supposed to take all 22s or even half of them. It means that a 9th grader should take Honors Algebra if it is offered, as opposed to the CP level. If there are no APs offered in the school, that's okay, too. College websites do say so.</p>
<p>Of course it is true that a child can gain admission to the top colleges from average high schools with moderately challenging courses. Context is everything. Statistically, however, it is more difficult for a NJ student to get into ANY private or OOS public college than it is for a student from any other state. I would imagine students from NY are close behind. This is due to both population density interacting with colleges' goal of geographic diversity, as well as to the fact that NJ has a very large number of exceptionally well-qualified students. Elite schools have an unwritten policy of not accepting more than 1-3 students from the same high school. Consequently, the kid who gets into HYP from a HS like ours will likely have worked harder and "accomplished" more to snag that spot than the kid from Arkansas. This is not to say the NJ student is more intelligent or capable or deserving, but he would have had to do a heck of a lot more to prove he was the cream of the crop. That is perhaps why the situation is a bit more extreme where I live. Take for example the National Merit Program. The commendations are awarded to the highest percentile using score cut-offs which vary from state to state. In NJ a student needs a higher score to be a NMF than a student from any other state. That stinks. </p>
<p>So, while H's job ties us to this area, my kids have no choice but to deal with the situation. We parents aren't in this mess only because we're in a blind Ivy frenzy. You may not believe me, but average kids and their parents are also under more stress. Not just anyone can attend flagship state anymore.</p>
<p>Most of the kids at S's school take the same courses and stay up late. All of the courses are demanding...it's a prep school and it's the norm not the exception. I think we're dealing with different realities in different parts of the country. It seems common sense to tell your kid not to stay up late, take too many APs or leave a school. Easy solutions if your kids listen and let you take them out of a school they love. My kid is fifteen...he's old enough to decide what he wants to take. He doesn't get three hours of sleep...he gets about seven or eight (and needs nine or ten). Is it necessary to take these courses? I don't think so. But everyone at his school does. Again, instead of laying blame at the feet of the parents and the kids, can we talk about what responsibility the schools (high school and college) have in all of this?</p>
<p>Where to go? Start advertising really good and really sane high schools...let's give them their due and see what they're doing right.</p>
<p>Last of the Mohicans is deadly...why do they need to read that?? It's a lovely Daniel Day-Lewis movie with beautiful score, "wherever you go, I will find you."</p>
<p>I believe our son's small high school offered 15 AP courses, although I don't specifically remember what they were. Probably government, history (US and Euro), English, sciences, math, and several languages. I recall his first AP class was in his freshman year, increasing each year until he took 4 in his senior year. I also recall how we frequently discussed whether he should take that many AP classes since we were concerned he would overdose from homework and stress.</p>
<p>Having said that, in retrospect, now I wish our son's high school had offered more AP classes so he could have placed out of even more lower division courses. I know that sounds contradictory and it probably is. However, our son's college curriculum has many required courses and his degree plan consists primarily of courses in his majors. It would be nice if he had the flexibility to sample other subjects that won't be part of his ultimate career but would expand his interests and perspective.</p>
<p>On the topic of hours of homework: in the last 13 years if I've learned anything, I've learned parents here are not publicly honest with each other and the school about how much time Junior takes to do his homework. It's like a dirty little secret. No one wants to admit his child is spending more than the amount of time listed in the official homework policy. Otherwise, the teacher will think he's a grind, the school might bump him down to a lower level class, and his friends will learn he's not as smart as they think he is. So, parents and students plod on and teachers are oblivious to the fact that the kids are suffering.</p>
<p>But I've had plenty of parents admit to me privately, in tears, the homework hell that is their lives. </p>
<p>My third grader brought home the following for homework today. Does this look typical for what you see at your schools?</p>
<ol>
<li> reading log: required to read a book or books for pleasure at least half an hour, and then record title and author in log</li>
<li> spelling: sort 20 words into categories, write them down that way in the notebook, write sentences for 6 of the words</li>
<li> 3 math worksheets: 2 were not difficult, 1 was of average difficulty but time-consuming</li>
<li>worksheet on capitalization: editing a paragraph</li>
<li> worksheet on letter format which included writing a casual letter</li>
</ol>
<p>The funny thing: According to the school handbook, the homework guideline for 3rd graders is 30-45 minutes daily. Therefore, after completing the reading log, the remainder of the homework has to be done in 15 minutes. My child can't do that, could yours?</p>
<p>The GFG:
We, too, live in the epicenter of competitive schools both private and suburban, though our own school is very mixed and does not foster competition (the word was anathema in our k-8 school, which is why we chose it). S1 got into some top 10 schools after taking 5 APs, none of which were in math/science. Four were linked as pairs. He did not care to apply to HYPS and we knew he would get a great education at any of the top 50 schools. We saw no reason to join the arms race. S2 had a totally different profile, but did what was comfortable for him and did not try to compare himself with others. </p>
<p>Symphonymom:
Sorry, sending one's kid to a prep school is a parental choice. It does not have to be made. Colleges are not the culprits. </p>
<p>DRJ:
Can a student at your son's university reduce requirements by having more APs? That is not the case here. APs or college courses will let a student get into higher level classes, but will not reduce the number of courses needed to fulfill the major. If a student uses the Advanced Standing option, the Core (gen ed) requirements are reduced by only one course.</p>
<p>The GFG: what do they do all day in school? I'm no anti-homework fanatic, and I don't think these assignments are a waste of time, but why can't they get to them during the regular school day? I volunteered a lot in my D 2nd grade class, and I discovered they did nothing useful all day; an amazing amount of time was wasted. The result was, we got to spend our evenings making sure this kind of homework got done. I took her out of school and home-schooled her for three years, so this stuff got done during the day and she could read for pleasure, play games and learn the piano in the evening.
It wasn't an ideal solution, needless to say. I do understand your frustration.</p>
<p>"The Last of the Mohicans" was one of my favorite books in high school back in the back. :) </p>
<p>Being able to gain credits has been helpful to my son. He did the IB diploma and loved the program. It was a program not just courses. His "clan" for the year bonded and they worked. They graduated, got their diplomas and are off in their second year of college in Germany, Canada, Egypt, Lebanon, and the States. So I don't know anything about the AP. I do know about the "stress." One thing that is real important is that the students make the decision to do this type of course of study. It is up to them. When parents make the decision, from my own experience working at a school, it doesn't go as well.</p>