<p>
[quote]
1. reading log: required to read a book or books for pleasure at least half an hour, and then record title and author in log
2. spelling: sort 20 words into categories, write them down that way in the notebook, write sentences for 6 of the words
3. 3 math worksheets: 2 were not difficult, 1 was of average difficulty but time-consuming
4. worksheet on capitalization: editing a paragraph
5. worksheet on letter format which included writing a casual letter
[/quote]
</p>
<ol>
<li>A voracious reader, S read far more than the stipulated half-hour and did not consider it homework. All he had to do was to record the title and author: 2 minutes.</li>
<li>His bête noire. He hated having to come up with sentences. 20 minutes of moaning and groaning.
3.math: he used to do it while waiting for the bus: 4 minutes.
4&5 not assigned.
Less than 30 minutes. I imagine that kids who considered reading a chore and were not as advanced in math as S would need 45 minutes to do the assignments.</li>
</ol>
<p>Hey Marite, our other choice was our public school where we started and were for many many years. The privates and publics are the same in terms of amount of homework and stress. That's why our public schools were the subject of Pope Clark's study. Jones gets the college part of all of this...she understands that it is part of a larger problem. Blaming the parents and kids is easy. Really examining the system is hard. Colleges are part of the system. High schools are part of the system. Parents, teachers and kids are all part of the system. Everyone has to examine his or her part in a system that needs some fixing so that GFG's little third grader can grow up in a happy educational environment (I feel for your third grader, by the way, GFG). And you are right...parents are deeply insecure...but I've found teachers really don't care. Again, everyone has to examine his or her role in perpetuating this system. Going to prep school or public school just shouldn't matter.</p>
<p>GFG...deep breath...only those who have little third graders running around the house truly remember. My mother insists that I read when I was one and half and was potty trained well before that:) She's almost eighty and keeps us chuckling.</p>
<p>I wrote an detailed answer to your question and, in the process, realized I'm not sure what your question is. Duh. I think your point is that at many colleges (especially the Ivys) AP credit doesn't count for a degree but will count for placement into an upper division course, right? That is different than our son's college where AP credit counts to satisfy lower division requirements that aren't in the major. Thus, AP Government credit will count for our son's business major since government is required for a business degree but is not a core course in his major.</p>
<p>TheGFG,</p>
<p>Your third grader's assignments sound like the assignments I recall and they would have taken our son far more than 45 minutes to complete.</p>
<p>What do kids do all day in school? Don't get me going. I could write a whole 30-page thread on that all by myself.</p>
<p>Briefly, our state-mandated curriculum is huge in scope (not depth) and replete with all kinds of tangential topics, particularly health-related issues, that have encroached upon the academic curriculum. While some of these may be covered in middle school and HS health classes, in the elementary school they seem to permeate everything to the detriment of the 3 R's. I'll start the list... </p>
<ol>
<li>diversity and tolerance</li>
<li>disability awareness</li>
<li>bully-proofing and conflict resolution ("I messages)</li>
<li>stranger danger, internet safety, physical privacy and related topics</li>
<li>drug and acohol education/peer pressure/refusal skills</li>
<li>self-esteem development</li>
<li>minority-specific social issues</li>
<li>the every-changing food pyramid and healthy eating</li>
<li>recycling</li>
<li>conservation/ecology--S learned about whales every year, but now I think they're into lizards and Darwinian creatures of the Galapagos Isands.</li>
</ol>
<p>My S used to call those health classes "group therapy". He thought them silly, but on a certain level, I think they're needed. Some kids don't learn this stuff at home.</p>
<p>However, I volunteered in the classroom a lot and the hours wasted per day in crowd control, transitions and repetition made me think, at times, about homeschooling. But I didn't do it. Maybe selfish about my free time, but I thought S would learn needed lessons dealing with lots of types of kids and adults and even, to an extent, dealing with frustration.</p>
<p>SJMOM</p>
<p>I think you mentioned science APs. Our HS has only AP Bio and I've heard it's a BIG problem for kids going on in sciences that there's no AP Chem or Physics. It's not a problem for my kid, but it creates large problems for others. So it is a systemic issue. I'm not holding our HS up as a model. It's what we've got and it has pluses and minuses. The lack of tracking would make some of you pull your hair out, I'm guessing. Our area has very few private school options, a small Waldorf school and two other tiny places.</p>
<p>Well, I seem to be living in a different planet from others. When our high school got a principal who was all theory and no experience, she did away with honors track. So S was in heterogeneous classes that had practically no homework. The only real homework he had came from his AP and college classes. We had to create homework for him in the humanities and social studies, otherwise he would not have learned how to do research and write a persuasive paper, at least at the high school level.
There was a fair amount of time-wasting at school, too, but I don't necessarily blame either the school or the teachers for the rowdiness of certain kids.
My kid learned the importance of a diversity and tolerance curriculum when he was in 1/2 grade. A first grader was being "teased" by older kids. The poor kid, already distraught by her parents divorce, was being taunted with the fact that her dad had come out as gay. Other kids, who did not even know the meaning of the word, joined in the taunting. Things like that happen that interfere with the 3 Rs, and they have to be dealt with right away. I also think, however, that many of the topics can be combined with the 3 Rs.</p>
<p>AP credits: on our campus visits to the very competitive schools, we got the impression that while the AP's have placement ramifications, in general students at those colleges were not skipping intro. courses in their majors or graduating a semester or two early. After all, I would think many kids at the Ivies and top LAC's are entering freshman year with 2 years worth of college credits under their belt. It wouldn't behoove the school to encourage that sort of thing. What AP's will do for S is allow him to knock off some distribution requirements so that he will be able to double major and also complete the requirements for a minor.</p>
<p>At some colleges, Harvard being one, a sufficient number of AP credits will allow a student to graduate earlier. The student will be exempted from only one required Gen Ed course but not from the requirements of the major. A student who wishes to graduate early (this is called Advanced Standing) will thus have practically no electives. AP scores, however, can be used for placement into more advanced classes. For example, a student who received a 5 in a language AP test can move to the appropriate level of that language.
S faced a similar situation in high school.
Many students who are eligible for Advanced Standing do not exercise this option because they want to take electives--which, I gather, is what your son wishes to do. But one needs only 4 APs to qualify for Advanced Standing, not 12 or 13, which seems to be what many kids are taking, judging by posts on this thread.</p>
<p>Yes, it is a sign of the times that schools need to teach these things at school. Forgot to include in my list a major category: character education. Since kids are no longer being taught honesty, kindness, respect, generosity, etc. at home, they must study it at school. I understand the need, but I haven't seen any evidence that these "group therapy" programs work. Remember the expose on the DARE program? Research indicated that it may actually have increased substance abuse in middle class suburban areas by educating kids on the various possibilities. I, for one, was not pleased that my kids learned about all the household products they could sniff. They wouldn't have been exposed to that in any other way.</p>
<p>Marite I do think that your experience with your sons' public school is different, based on demographics. You've said that many of the students, although not wealthy, have very well educated parents. (grad students at MIT or Harvard etc) Those kids are atypical in most schools. So even if the competitive pressures are not in the school, their home environment is probably very rich and inherent abilities are likely to be very high.</p>
<p>I do think this is a regional thing. Here in Massachusetts, I understand that the NMF cutoff for this year is 224 -- I don't remember what it was in NJ, but GFG's comments also apply. We've been told at parent meetings that students should be looking outside of New England, due to the competition for spots in selective colleges. Many kids want to go to college somewhat near home. What does that mean in the Boston area?</p>
<p>I remember those days of stupid homework assignments in grade school. My kids both liked to read, but spelling sentences were deadly. They both liked arithmetic, but how many problems do you have to do to get it down?</p>
<p>I don't think that the current pressures on students are completely the colleges fault, but I do think the system is not "kid friendly" on many levels. The question becomes, "Are we brave enough to disarm unilaterally?" We are treading that line carefully in our house. I believe in taking the hardest classes a kid can handle, because that's where REAL learning takes place. But I'm not in favor of doing so at any price. I still want happy kids.</p>
<p>TheGFG--Well, move to my town. It's in NJ, and as I've outlined above, we operate in a different world, academically. There are plenty of less rigorous school systems in New Jersey--however, you have to choose to live in a neighborhood (like mine) that you might not want to.</p>
<p>I do sympathesize with the rat race feel of where you are, but it's not because you live in NJ.</p>
<p>Marite--I agree with what you say that students and parents don't have to choose all those APs. The question then comes in --what happens when the GC doesn't check the "most rigorous" available schedule when on his rec--how much will that affect admissions?</p>
<p>I think that this is an important question, and one we don't really have an answer to. I don't think studetns should take all these APs just to get into a college, but neither do I think they should be penalized because they don't, just because they were available. I actually don't think that it's unfair that my kids got a bye in that respect, because the classes weren't available here. Not that I think it should be held against them; just that the opposite shouldn't be held against others.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I believe in taking the hardest classes a kid can handle, because that's where REAL learning takes place. But I'm not in favor of doing so at any price. I still want happy kids.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That's it, exactly. Honestly, judging by what others report on this thread, I feel both my kids could have handle even heavier course loads; they were real slackers compared to what others report. But they did not get by on 3-4 hours of sleep and felt stressed.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Many kids want to go to college somewhat near home. What does that mean in the Boston area?
[/quote]
S1 decided to look at colleges within a 6 hours drive, with preference for a 3 hours drive. Got admitted to most of those he applied to with only (gulp) 5 APs (the colleges--all top 20-- to which he was admitted did not give Advanced Standing anyway), top 10%, NM Commended, no major competitions, limited ECs., no hooks whatsoever. He certainly was not part of any arms race.
Friends of S2 have ended up at USC (originally from L.A., delighted to be returning); RISD; Savannah College of Arts; Stanford; UMAss-Amherst; UMass-Boston; Yale; Mt Holyoke; MIT; Harvard; Duke.
Friends of S1 went to UVM; GWU; Brown; Yale; RISD; Rochester; Wesleyan.</p>
<p>What I believe colleges mean by most rigorous curriculum--if there are APs available--is the highest level in a particular subject. So if there is AP-Calc available and the student only takes Algebra II, that will be taken into account. What I believe colleges do not mean is for students to take large numbers of APs just because their schools offer them. And S1 did not take a single math or science AP even though his school offered them all. When he said he did not want to take AP-Calc (and believe me, his GC pushed on this) we said it was okay, he did not have to, we knew he was not heading toward a science career. After all, it's not the GC who's taking the AP classes. The student can decide whether to follow the GC advice or not. We played our part in disarming annd he still got into several top LACs.</p>
<p>I have learned a lot from reading this thread. I never knew there were so many very rigorous public high schools. I have learned ours is a lot more average than I thought and I have also decided that is a good thing. I just don't believe 5-6 hours of homework makes sense for any HS student.</p>
<p>I guess I also have a better appreciation for the concerns expressed by Dean Jones. It is hard to identify better options and changes needed in the current system. It seems that the criteria for elite college admissions keeps evolving, but the evolution only leads to more stress. SATs, grades and class ranking have been supplemented with the need for intense courses and lots of APs. Those requirements have further been expanded to include lots of EC's. Then in addition to the EC's, it has been necessary to have real passions. Now it appears that more expectations are being added to the selection process. It appears that MIT is looking for kids who can demonstrate they that they are innovative with strong and unique personalities. It is not clear to me whether MIT is taking a new approach to college admissions or just adding even more criteria - and more stress - to the selection process.</p>
<p>"Its the only AP class I can comment on, and Id say the amount of memorization and the lack of depth and analysis bear no resemblance to any college class I took."</p>
<p>I'd say it was fairly similar to the all of Chinese history in one semester class I took in college. That class had a midterm, a final and three short (ca. 5 page) papers. In APUSH my son had two 15 page papers.</p>
<p>It's more than stultifying it's unreadable. Too bad - the original Masterpiece Theater version was great and I enjoyed the more recent movie with Daniel Day Lewis too.</p>
<p>Probably not. But honestly I never considered reading logs part of homework time. If other homework took much longer than what our official homework guidelines said I have been known to write on the unfinished homework "My son spent 40 minutes on this and I told him to go to bed even though he wasn't finished."</p>