MIT Admissions Dean warns About College Entrance Stress

Parents Forum
501

<p>ROTFL hysterically, Sticker!!</p>

<p>Blossom, I hear you. For now my kids seem to be coping. On the positive side of this, I believe that high expectations are better for children than low ones. The majority of kids tend to rise to the occasion and surprise us adults with how much they can accomplish so young. But we do need to be on guard about how much our children should be asked to handle.</p>

<p>As far as the idea these smart kids would be bored in regular classes, perhaps that's true. But how did that situation come to be in the first place? I believe that most of the kids taking a million AP's didn't arrive at that point because they are innately so much more intelligent than the children in the regular track that they'd be bored otherwise. No, they are highly intelligent because of a rich and demanding home and school environment which is teaching material to them years earlier than bright kids in our generation learned the same things. Sure they may be a little smarter than the average bear and that's why the parents responded with enrichment and why the school placed them in an advanced track to begin with. But we're not talking about Einstein-smart or Bill Gates-smart in most cases. We're talking Kumon-tutored--smart, PhD parents giving kids extra homework daily--smart, kids doing workbooks or taking classes all summer long--smart, hyper-ambitious parents behind kids pushing them--smart. In that group there are a few "brilliant" ones mixed in too.</p>

<p>And I failed to mention that my third-grader is PDD NOS. I want the expectations for her to be high. I want her to be pushed and challenged, but when it's appropriate and makes sense for her individually--not just because the school needs to keep its test scores high.</p>

<p>As for me, I've been getting too little sleep because I'm watching over my night owl D, and drinking way too much coffee. The anxiety is taking its toll on mom, that's clear. Thanks for the group therapy, guys.</p>

502

<p>"It is indeed a problem that many schools do not accept IBs."</p>

<p>Or is it a problem that so many have embraced it without much of a challenge? Of course, pure academics are not really as important as the perception of what an elitist program should be.</p>

503

<p>Xiggi:</p>

<p>No. It's because it's unfamiliar, that's all. </p>

<p>There's plenty that's good about the IB program and plenty that would not suit. I said it would have suited S1 very well; it would not have suited S2--not just because the math/sciences component is relatively weak, but because of scheduling issues. The very thing that makes IB works--better integration at grade level and between grades--can pose problems for the student who is advanced in some subjects and not others. </p>

<p>But hey, the IB program is only as good as its curriculum and the teachers who teach that curriculum. Same thing for APs: some AP classes are terrific and some are truly terrible.</p>

504

<p>xiggi: Kudos for being brave enough to use the word "transformational education." I've been waiting a long time to see that on CC. You made my day!</p>

505

<p>Sorry, do not have time to read through the entire discussion, but from what I saw nobody mentioned one point: the average US high school level is so low, that the AP level seems to be impossible demanding. There I come from, EVERY high school student studies calculus and organic chemistry.</p>

506

<p>Marite, I completely agree that there is MUCH good in the IB program. </p>

<p>However, I find the clamors for further implementation and fanatical endorsement extremely puzzling. The IBO has discovered in the USA a most fertile terrain where its program looks so good because the schools are ... so bad. It is no accident that the entire growth of the program has almost been confined to the United States, after having languished for two generations and suffered from a rather microscopic participants' base. Behind the lofty claims of universal acceptance, one can find a program that was most definitely NOT designed and developed as a solution for a country such as the United States. </p>

<p>In a country that has and is fighting tooth and nail for the defense of its Constitution and inalienable rights, it is extremely surprising how little of a challenge has been directed to the IBO for its UN/UNESCO mandated positions. The same can be said for a country that has built its education system on the virtues of local controls and funding. And lastly, a country whose educational "leaders" have shown such virulent and zealous opposition to any type of "school choice" is now showing little interest in questioning or acknowledging the complete abdication of the control of curriculum design and contents to a group of Swiss and Welsh administrators. </p>

<p>My take is that endorsers of the IB program are mostly interested in its direct benefits and do not really know or care about the contents and applicability of the curriculum. As long as it is better for the individual, who cares if the program represents a considerable setback for the majority of the population who does not breathe the rarified air preferred by unrepentant elitists! </p>

<p>Deja vu, all over again!</p>

507

<p>Xiggi:</p>

<p>You are right that the IB program was never designed to palliate bad local education but to provide a uniform and replicable program for children of people who were frequently on the move--children of diplomats, in particular. Hence its base in Geneva. These are the types of folks who are highly educated and expect their children to be educated to high standards. And, as Fizik noted, where Fizik comes from, every high schooler is expected to learn calculus and organic chemistry. That is true of the countries of origin of the diplomats and others for whom the IB was originally developed. It is a bit puzzling to me that the IB has been adopted where the schools are worse, thus creating a gap between those in the IB program and those who are not.</p>

508

<p>
[quote]
And, as Fizik noted, where Fizik comes from, every high schooler is expected to learn calculus and organic chemistry. That is true of the countries of origin of the diplomats and others for whom the IB was originally developed.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>It should be noted that those countries do not expect all their teenage students to attend academic high schools where all will be required to study organic chemistry and calculus.</p>

<p>Those countries have two-track secondary systems, in which a good-sized chunk of students do not attend an academic high school at all. Instead, at age 14 or so, a large chunk of the student population is shunted off to a vocational high school, where they would typically not have the opportunity to study calculus and organic chemistry, let alone be required to take it.</p>

509

<p>
[quote]
We're talking Kumon-tutored--smart

[/quote]
Which is exactly the problem, and why I wandered whether those who have been crammed full of knowledge are really more "prepared" for college -- or are those the ones that the MIT profs were complaining are not any "fun" to teach? </p>

<p>I'd also note that, as a parent of kids who attended high schools that did not offer AP classes in math & sciences, I am horrified at the suggestion that these kids are at a disadvantage when they get to college if they choose a math or science major. It is just one more barrier being set up between the haves and have-nots in our country -- now a complete high school education is not enough. They have to do college in high school too. </p>

<p>APs are supposed to be a way that some kids can get ahead -- they were never intended to raise the bar across the board. If that is happening, then some serious reevaluation is in order -- wouldn't it make more sense to simply set up an accellerated path for students interested in early college? Perhaps after 10th grade they could go into a 2-year transitional college (like a community college, except with the prestige of a fancy prep school) and apply to an Ivy as a transfer?</p>

510

<p>"Perhaps after 10th grade they could go into a 2-year transitional college (like a community college, except with the prestige of a fancy prep school) and apply to an Ivy as a transfer?"</p>

<p>It exists sort of. Simon's Rock, Bard Early College program and Mary Baldwin's program - maybe others. The trouble I see is that kids want the four year Ivy experience.</p>

511

<p>Wisteria:</p>

<p>You are right. I was limiting my discussion to the IB clientele, whose children expect to complete high school and go on to university. Not everyone in their country makes it to 12th grade. But if you are in 12th grade, you are expected to take calculus nd other required subjects.</p>

512

<p>And it should be noted that, according to reports, the IB program is not always considered an equivalent high school diploma in the countries where it is offered, namely Peru and Turkey among others. </p>

<p>However, a better question to be posed might be if the schools that offer an IB program are the "best" in their respective countries outside the USA. Is the IB the preferred high school program in France, Germany, or Belgium? Are top students choosing to attend an International School because of desire or because of necessity; because they had the CHOICE or because their multiple family moves forced them to attend a school that is hardly superior to the local high schools, but exceedingly more expensive or ... class selective? </p>

<p>The reality might be that the standards are not exactly ... as universal or as high as the IBO purports them to be.</p>

513

<p>
[quote]
wouldn't it make more sense to simply set up an accellerated path for students interested in early college? Perhaps after 10th grade they could go into a 2-year transitional college (like a community college, except with the prestige of a fancy prep school) and apply to an Ivy as a transfer?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Most states which have instituted high stakes exit tests administer these tests to tenth graders. There's a reason for that.</p>

<p>Creating transitional colleges would just exacerbate matters. by introducing new rigidities. What about the 9th grader who can do Calculus? Where would s/he fit? We have been told time and again that the secret for raising the performance of low-income students is to keep middle class students in the same schools, and preferrably same classes (that was the reasoning a former principal used to defend heterogeneous classes). If transitional colleges were created, their main clientele would be middle class kids. The "regular" schools would be full of low-income children of parents with limited English, etc...</p>

514

<p>Xiggi:</p>

<p>The IB is sufficiently close to the curriculum of certain countries for it not to make sense as an alternative. But it is good--not perfect--for children of diplomats who are posted in different posts and do not want to put their children in boarding schools in a different country from the one where they happen to be posted. That was the original purpose of the program.</p>

515

<p>
[quote]
Perhaps after 10th grade they could go into a 2-year transitional college (like a community college, except with the prestige of a fancy prep school) and apply to an Ivy as a transfer?

[/quote]

For our older son, the APs offered this kind of education, while still living at home. </p>

<p>He also received literature from Simon's Rock and the University of So Cal regarding early college entrance. I especially thought the USC program was interesting, because it seemed like a smart marketing program to capture kids who were ready for college level work. (It allowed kids to skip senior year, enroll in a special program for freshman and still get a HS diploma) If S's school hadn't had the AP options, maybe we would have considered it more.</p>

516

<p>Marite, it is because I understand what the original purpose of the program was that I so freely question its applicability and acceptance in the United States as an immediate panacea for all our education shortcomings. As it now stands, the IB is painted as a very rigorous program for the best of the best students. It is also presented as the program of choice by foreign private schools that have a choice. </p>

<p>What is buried under the proverbial carpet is that a good number of the schools offering the IB program are also glorified roaming terrains for the rich and famous who have fallen behind in a regular system of education and remedial programs </p>

<p>Are those types of schools supposed to magically become our Crème de la Crème? Probably too harsh a judgment to be valid, but hardly implausible considering the local scenery?</p>

517

<p>Marian -- AGH! Forgot about the SAT-IIs...I'm sure DS2 will not take the Spanish SAT-II, but yeah, he'll need to take Math. USH he can do after soph year when he takes the AP and it's fresh in his mind. </p>

<p>Xiggi said -- "Are you suggesting that ALL schools offer credit for the entire IB, including the SL? And are you aware of the reasons why all colleges are not overlooking a few of the non-academic attributes of the IB program, and are opting to weigh the benefits of a transformational education--as opposed to knowledge-based education--a bit differently from how local school districts did."</p>

<p>Xiggi, are you aware of particular schools who like the IB program and its philosophy? That would be really great info to have, as DS2 is much more a "big picture" thinker (he can't wait for TOK) than a details guy. RE: the politics of IB -- it strikes me that Department of Defense (DoD) schools serve much the same purpose for US kids abroad as does the IB program. Where we live, a number of schools are implementing IB -- not necessarily the entire diploma program, and they are doing it by self-selection vs. an application process.</p>

<p>RE: credits -- from what our school says, many kids take the Spanish AP and Calc BC after junior year SL exams -- so if that's the equivalent, why not allow the SL to count for credit (but perhaps, require a 6 or 7 for SL instead of a 5-6-7 for HL)?</p>

<p>The GFG -- We got the same horror and raised eyebrows from DS1's GC when he decided taking Journalism (with the goals of making staff and improving his writing skills) was more important than taking a 4th year of Spanish. NONE of the colleges he's interested in even has a high school FL requirement! And don't tell anyone... he's not taking an AP science this year, either... :*) Happily DS1 has a healthy abhorrence of "prostituting oneself" (he used another word) just to get into college. He takes classes because he wants them, not because they look good, and the hell with what anyone thinks. </p>

<p>I can also tell you there's no way DS2 will take Spanish V or Muvltivariable Calc senior year. No way, no how. He will have five credits of HS math because our school system counts HS math and FL taken in middle school. </p>

<p>But since we are in an area with lots of "opportunities," kids are expected to take advantage of them. Ad nauseam. Literally. What passes for "average" in this area would knock the socks off of what my old high school could produce.</p>

<p>Marite -- we are IB rookies! Still have much to learn. DS1 is not at the same HS as DS2, so it's a different set of ropes to learn. Think I will find (or create) a thread to learn about which colleges like IB! DS2 would love to spend a year overseas during college, which was one of his motivations to puruse IB. The other big reason was that this was the only program that would allow him to go deep in history and bio -- the other programs here are either math/sci or humanities -- as if never the twain should meet!</p>

518

<p>"Xiggi, are you aware of particular schools who like the IB program and its philosophy? That would be really great info to have, as DS2 is much more a "big picture" thinker (he can't wait for TOK) than a details guy."</p>

<p>Countingdown, I am afraid not to be the best person to answer that question. :) </p>

<p>However, I believe that the uber-elite schools do like the IB program. Unless I am mistaken, Harvard actually favors the IB program as far as AP vs IB credits--as much as IB graduate receiving one year worth of credits. </p>

<p>Best of luck with the TOK.</p>

519

<p>
[quote]
Creating transitional colleges would just exacerbate matters.

[/quote]
So do you agree with SJMom that any kid who wants to major in sciences ought to have AP Chem, Bio, Physics and BC Calc before starting college? So kids in school that do not offer these courses are just left in the lurch - or redirected away from proposed science majors if they want to attend an Ivy? </p>

<p>It seems to me that if an AP represents a college-level course, then all colleges should offer a course at the same level for entering students. A college major in the sciences should be designed so that it can be completed in 4 years, starting at the introductory level. </p>

<p>I actually don't see any difference between the idea that all students should have those APs upon entering college and the idea that kids need to already know how to read before entering first grade, essentially transferring the traditional first grade curriculum to kindergarten. Again, it is raising the bar in such a way as to increase the distance between the haves and have-nots in our society. I am quite sure that there isn't a low-wealth school district in the country that has the pressures and courseload that TheGFG complains of. On the contrary -- many schools don't even have enough text books to go around -- I remember my daughter had a high school class where because of the text books shortage, the teacher taught from two different sets of books, pretty much distributed at random to the students. The books were not at different labels, they just came from different publishers and there weren't enough of either to go around to the whole class. These high schools often don't have the funds or practical abiity to hire staff qualified to teach AP courses -- it isn't going to help any kid to take a course called "AP" Calculus or Physics if the teacher isn't able to explain the concepts covered in class.</p>

520

<p>My S took regular old public HS chemistry and physics and has done just fine in full years of college chemistry (taken at Harvard) and physics (taken at UChicago). This AP stuff is nice, but far from mandatory.</p>