<p>Let me try to clarify what I meant about colleges looking at the AP/IB issue. In the IB full diploma program, two Standard Level exams are taken junior year and 2-3 Upper Level exams and 1-2 additional Standard Levels are taken senior year (for a total of six exams over the two years).</p>
<p>My grouse about this is that for my DS2, his three upper levels are in his best subjects and the areas about which he is truly passionate (Euro/20th Century History and Biology, and to a lesser extent, English). My understanding from other IB parents is that final scores for these will all come in after <em>placement</em> (not admission) decisions have been made at whatever college he decides to attend. Not all schools acknowledge IB exams for placement or credit, either, which is what I would like to see change. <em>Those</em> elements are what seem to drive a lot of the kids at his school to take duplicative AP/IB exams. </p>
<p>DS2's junior year Standard Levels will be Spanish and Math, which are his least favorite subjects -- and I seriously doubt he will take APs for them, though most of his friends will. I suspect that when all is said and done, he will take APs only in classes not taught in IB but that do reflect his interests -- US Gov't, Comp Gov't, US Hist and Environmental Science. Three of the four will happen before he starts the full IB sequence. </p>
<p>And no, we are not in the HYP race with either kid; they don't want the rat race. They see how stressed out their friends are and have no desire to participate in it. DS2 is thinking about small LACs or public ivies, and the only reason colleges have even crossed his mind is that DS1 is now looking at schools. </p>
<p>Unfortunately, in our school system, there are the "gold standard" programs and high-rent high schools which offer a fabulous public education, or the local high schools, which don't offer much. Not much in-between! We've been navigating the waters of the gold standard programs for quite some time now without getting sucked into the insanity. We do insist on reasonable amounts of sleep at night; DS2 crashes by 10 pm and there is no effective work coming out of him after that point, caffeinated or not! :*)<br>
I've gotten quite a few upturned eyebrows and shocked comments when I say DS1 (a junior) never took CTY courses, has not yet taken the SAT, and will not be seeing a college placement counselor! No parental abdication around here... </p>
<p>Hope this clarifies what I was trying to say... :*)</p>
<p>originaloog, I'm sorry that you found my statement to be silly. </p>
<p>You are right in that AP Chem may not be taught by competent teachers at every school. But in an Ivy, which is my point of reference for my son, I would wager that almost every student in the introductory levels of physics or chemistry had AP classes or the equivalent. For a student, even a very bright one, to walk in cold would be very difficult. The playing field would not be level.</p>
<p>I agree with that Originaloog. Kids who are interested in math and science and who have an aptitude but who never have an opportunity to take AP math and science classes will soar once they are exposed to the material in college. It's like teaching kids to swim at age 4--you can spend all summer teaching them, or you can wait until they are older and they learn in a week. If a kid has ability, it won't really matter whether they are exposed to calculus in high school or in college; they'll learn it and they'll be able to apply it as necessary in other work.</p>
<p>Symphonymom asked for a great school providing an excellent education in a user friendly environment -- we had that in elementary and middle school. It was a private school for the academically gifted. Because it self selected students with a high IQ and enthusiasm for learning (the admissions process involved having the kids sit in on classes and interact with the teachers and other students) the focus was on learning -- for fun! The students were there because they couldn't soak up information fast enough for "regular" schools. And the teachers were there because they enjoyed being challenged and helping eager students desperate to know everything about everything. The parents picked the school because their kids couldn't be happy anywhere else and so, for the most part, trusted the school to do its job. That school focused on learning for learning's sake -- not as a means to some other end. And, apropos of GTG question about the third grader schedule, when my daughter was in third grade at the "gifted" school she didn't have that much homework each night!</p>
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My grouse about this is that for my DS2, his three upper levels are in his best subjects and the areas about which he is truly passionate (Euro/20th Century History and Biology, and to a lesser extent, English). My understanding from other IB parents is that final scores for these will all come in after <em>placement</em> (not admission) decisions have been made at whatever college he decides to attend. Not all schools acknowledge IB exams for placement or credit, either, which is what I would like to see change. <em>Those</em> elements are what seem to drive a lot of the kids at his school to take duplicative AP/IB exams.
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<p>CountingDown, I have a daughter who is a 12th grader in IB. She got her 2 11th grade SL IB test scores in mid-july. But she got them online. I don't know how long it would take to get a formal score report. Whether formal score reports can reach colleges in time for placement may depend on when placement occurs at a particular college. Some colleges have orientation (with course scheduling) during the summer; others wait until just before classes start. </p>
<p>Also, you have underestimated the test madness. In addition to taking IB tests (for credit toward the IB diploma) and AP tests (for college placement, since most colleges will not give credit for standard level IB tests) in the same subject, kids often have to take the SAT Subject Test in that subject too (for college admissions). My daughter found it necessary to take three math tests (IB, AP, and SAT II), and three Spanish tests (IB, AP, and SAT II). And I paid for all of that.</p>
<p>"My grouse about this is that for my DS2, his three upper levels are in his best subjects and the areas about which he is truly passionate (Euro/20th Century History and Biology, and to a lesser extent, English). My understanding from other IB parents is that final scores for these will all come in after <em>placement</em> (not admission) decisions have been made at whatever college he decides to attend. Not all schools acknowledge IB exams for placement or credit, either, which is what I would like to see change. <em>Those</em> elements are what seem to drive a lot of the kids at his school to take duplicative AP/IB exams."</p>
<p>My understanding from other IB parents is that final scores for these will all come in after <em>placement</em> (not admission) decisions have been made at whatever college he decides to attend. </p>
<p>Is it possible you meant after admissions' but BEFORE placement decisions are made? </p>
<p>In the eyes of many, at least in our area, admission decision decisons made on participation versus succes is a most definite benefit and not an hindrance. Of course, this is the part of the country where IB was made King of the Hill without much ado nor knowledge.</p>
<p>Lastly, regarding, "Not all schools acknowledge IB exams for placement or credit, either, which is what I would like to see change," may I ask you in which way you would like to see changes implemented? Are you suggesting that ALL schools offer credit for the entire IB, including the SL? And are you aware of the reasons why all colleges are not overlooking a few of the non-academic attributes of the IB program, and are opting to weigh the benefits of a transformational education--as opposed to knowledge-based education--a bit differently from how local school districts did.</p>
<p>"I may have included too much detail here, but my point is that students can be admitted to the most selective colleges without taking the excessive schedules described by some parents in this post." --MotherofTwo</p>
<p>I agree and I said as much in my last post. But if you transplanted them to my town and they kept that schedule, I can assure you they would have a very difficult time being selected for those elite schools. This is because relative to the other students at their new high school, and relative to what opportunities the high school offers, they would be just average. </p>
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I've gotten quite a few upturned eyebrows and shocked comments when I say DS1 (a junior) never took CTY courses, has not yet taken the SAT, and will not be seeing a college placement counselor! No parental abdication around here...
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<p>The eyebrows aren't going to stop wagging as your kids get older.</p>
<p>My daughter, who is in 12th grade, took BC Calculus last year. But she is not taking Multivariable Calculus or any other math course this year (horrors!) because she wanted to take the AP course in a subject she is considering majoring in at college. She wanted to learn more about this subject and to see whether it is as interesting as she expects it to be. Fitting both courses into her schedule was not possible because she is in IB, and the IB program puts a lot of constraints on her course selections. I fully support her decision to take the other subject in place of math. (God forbid a kid should take a course because she's actually interested in the subject matter.)</p>
<p>Whenever I mention this to other parents, the eyebrows hit the ceiling. You would think that I had encouraged my daughter to take up drug dealing as an extracurricular activity.</p>
<p>Marian, lol That sounds like the reaction I got when S decided to forgo both foreign language and math his senior year. GC warned of impending doom, since top colleges "like to see" both for all 4 years and he might be jeopardizing his admissions chances.</p>
<p>TheGFG - It is a shame that the system works so that kids in your school are put in the position of overdoing their schedules so they won't look average. Both of my kids were well prepared by their high school courses for the work at their rigorous colleges, and earned excellent grades as freshman.</p>
<p>When my kids were in high school, I was upset when I learned that many other schools provided more AP and advanced courses (although our school still has more than many other schools). I also complained about the lack of knowledge by the GCs and teachers about selective college admissions (e.g. lack of familiarity with well-known LACs, no information provided about taking SAT 2s, material on SAT 2s not covered in the curriculum, etc.) We dealth with these issues by informing ourselves and not depending on the school for admissions guidance. However, reading this thread has made me glad in many ways that my kids did not attend some of the super-competitive high schools that do not have these issues, but seem to have other problems which may be even worse.</p>
<p>Sjmom said “It is a noble goal to open the most selective colleges to kids who are bright enough, but may not have had the same educational opportunities as kids from more savvy environments. It is the right thing to do. But I am a little concerned for those kids who are not prepared for the rigor of such colleges.”</p>
<p>My best friend in college (an Ivy) had SATs in the 400-500 range (I kid you not) and no advanced HS classes. Her first year taking college-level science was hell. She knew she was behind. But she did well enough to get her Ph.D. in chemistry from a second Ivy (one of the HYP) and now she is a leader in her field. </p>
<p>There are two levels of being unprepared for college. One level is in the basic skills, writing essays, doing basic math, researching, taking notes, reading complicated texts, etc. In this level, high schools fail their kids when they don’t prepare their students for college because that is their job. And I am concerned, like you are, for those kids. The level I’m talking about is when kids haven’t taken AP Chem, Calc BC, AP Physics, and enter college a year behind their peers from more affluent areas. I don’t think it is the high school’s job to teach college-level courses to their students, and I don’t think colleges should assume that. I realize that some colleges feel that way (as Bethie_vt said) and their students suffer. I think that’s wrong. A kid from a small rural high school should have an equal chance to become a doctor as a kid from the NJ suburbs, and should be able to take the same route. </p>
<p>Just to clarify: I know that many of you have kids who needed the college-level courses in HS because your kids were so advanced in math or science. A HS job is to meet every kid’s needs, and I know that AP courses do that for this type of kid.</p>
<p>My S took auto shop (a vocational course is required at his HS), photography, art and a non-AP philosophy course (which he loved), and passed on AP Chemistry so he could take another science course. He was accepted at selective schools others with many more AP courses (and higher GPA's) were not. I'm not sure what that means except that perhaps being a happy "well-rounded" student may be as attractive to some schools as the over-scheduled high achiever. Perhaps if the definition of average is taken to mean "typical," then such a student may not be average after all.</p>
<p>GFG said: But if you transplanted them to my town and they kept that schedule, I can assure you they would have a very difficult time being selected for those elite schools.</p>
<p>I hear you, and you are right. I don't think it's a healthy situation though. I'm sure when kids from your school room with the kids from my school, they think of the ones rejected back home -- and I wonder what the reaction is.</p>
<p>Most of us couldn't afford to make the move anyway. The only house we could afford would be an outhouse overlooking I-95.</p>
<p>Hmmm... you've got 3rd graders keeping up w/a schedule that would challenge many HS'ers, 9th graders taking college level physics; kids working so hard they get 4 hours of sleep a night (all because this is required so as not to be "average" and to get into a good college, mind you... not because the kid is so motivated and turned on by the subject that they want to pursue it singlemindedly) and you all think I'm nuts for suggesting you teach your kids to bake bread?</p>
<p>I still maintain that you've got bigger problems here than whether your kid gets into Harvard. Jeez; I'm a healthy middle aged person with a good support system. If I were subjected to this kind of stress at work I'd be self-medicating every night- and I'm a grownup and can walk away from it or get a less competitive job. What's a third grader to do and where's a HS kid going to go???</p>
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If I were subjected to this kind of stress at work I'd be self-medicating every night-
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<p>No you wouldn't, blossom. Because all the DARE programs, drug and acohol education/peer pressure/refusal skills, and self-esteem development classes you sat through every day would fortify you against such temptations.</p>
<p>LOL, SS, regarding the fortification (post #497)</p>
<p>New college interview questions will center around how well the applicant resisted such temptations to self-medicate, with an over-the-top schedule. (Note that the achieving student in the movie "Traffic" did not resist such temptations.)</p>
<p>Also appreciated the laughs provided by someone's earlier comment about bullying as "leadership." A laugh a minute, CC.</p>
<p>I hear you. My understanding--which may be wrong as it is not from direct experience--is that IB results come out in the summer. However, projected scores are known well beforehand and are used by GCs and by adcoms for admission purposes. IB results are the ones used for placement (same as APs).</p>
<p>It is indeed a problem that many schools do not accept IBs. However, the more selective ones--the ones for which IB and/or APs seem to matter more--know about IB and give credit for it. They tend to have a more international pool of applicants and also give Advanced Standing for the French Baccalaureat, British A-levels and German Arbitur.
The IB program would have suited my S1 very well and, had it been available at our school, I would have urged him to take it. If that were the case, I would not have pushed him to take the AP exams, but would have looked for schools where the IB was accepted. I feel sure he could have drawn up a decent list of colleges to apply to on that basis. I don't feel that it's necessary to try to cover all bases against one's inclinations.</p>