MIT Admissions Dean warns About College Entrance Stress

Parents Forum
161

<p>Back to the topic, though. Marilee's comments on sleep-deprivation resonate around here. I'm beginning to think that once you're dealing with the top 5 or 10% of the class as far as intelligence and motivation is concerned, after that the college admissions contest will be won by who can survive best on little sleep. My freshman D was up until 3 AM last night. I'll admit that since she's only had 6 full days of school, she is still learning how to do honors- caliber work quickly. Middle school was a joke. Still, I saw what assignments she was given on Thursday, due for Monday (they have block scheduling) and I can assure you not even a senior could have accomplished that quantity of work easily. </p>

<p>It is not only making kids sick, but parents too. I felt so worried and stressed watching her lose hour after hour of sleep trying to finish her work, then watching her rush off this morning with no breakfast. But this is the life of the BWRKs in our competitive community. In order to fit in the work for all those tough classes and demanding EC's, something must go and often it's sleep. And just in case you're wondering, this scenario is not about a few kids who are not quite in the higher echelon but want to be there, so they kill themselves working. I've been awake with my kids late at night and have seen every single one of their friends awake at 3 AM also, comparing notes on the homework via IM.</p>

162

<p>I'm chuckling remembering S's friend who was the sal. He was brilliant kid, perfect SATs, etc. In the lower-level but required-for-graduation classes he would regularly fall asleep. The teachers usually let him snooze, since they knew the student knew the material inside out and really didn't have to pay attention. Wonder if he'll do that at Princeton?</p>

163

<p>
[quote]
"Actually, the MIT teacher's rec form tries to meet some of these issues. It asks the teacher to explain whether a student received a particular grade by virtue of being conscientious, a good memorizer, grade-conscious, or brilliant."</p>

<p>And frankly this makes me nervous.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>More frankly it makes me sick to my stomach. To ask people who may not be brilliant to comment on brilliance is insane. They may not value brilliance as highly as MIT. Beyond the fact that some teachers wouldn't recognize brilliance if it bit them in the buttocks, why is the answer one of the above? Can't brilliant kids be some/all of the other answers? What if the teacher doesn't realize MIT wants them to mark "brilliance"? What if the teacher prizes conscientiousness above all other attributes because she's tired of brilliant slackards? </p>

<p>This is just another example of why kids from the schools with poor guidance and little experience sending kids to selective schools are really behind the eight-ball. Teachers at prep schools know the buzz words and phrases. At Bugtussle High "hard worker" is high praise. "Brilliant " is a word they see in TV ads. </p>

<p>Come on MIT, wake the heck up. </p>

<p>Edit: If you want to be proactive about this you could do some research and find some articles written about the dangers of rec's with "diligent, hardworking, driven" being construed as "plodding, unimaginative , and grade grubbing " when the rec writer meant no such thing. </p>

<p>Having a conversation with teachers and GC that goes a little like this should help- "Did you know that in this goofy freakshow that admissions has become teachers are expected to know that conscientious is a bad thing? These lunatics want kids to be brilliant. They don't want kids who are concerned with meeting the highest standards , they want kids who couldn't care less -and then meet the standard anyway. They don't want to hear about the fact the kid did everything asked of them, they want to hear about what he did that they didn't ask for. You know, a teacher could really sabotage a kid without trying, couldn't she?"</p>

<p>I am fifty. I have met two people in my life I would call brilliant and mean it in a technical sense. Two. Other people throw the word around to mean "really smart". If I was filling out that form, I would have unintentionally killed that kid's chances. </p>

<p>MIT, why don't you at least provide some definitions of what you are searching for in a student so the small town kids (and others simialrly positioned) have a fighting chance? In some parts of the country , we don't hyperbolize much in rec forms. We tend to downplay things. "Darn good kid" could mean "best-ever" ;).</p>

164

<p>Hmm. Will there ever come the day when one of those $15,000 college admission counselors says to a prospective client "I'm sorry but you want to attend MIT and their admission practices are such that there's nothing I could do to make you more appealing for admission."</p>

165

<p>O.K. I got timed out.:( Brilliance is a really bad word to use, MIT. Do you mean "genius" or "really smart" or "creatively intelligent" or .....just what? </p>

<p>I think there are probably many different meanings rec writers are putting on that word. Does brilliance require true genius IQ? If so, why not say that and save the dancing around? Or does it mean intellectual spark? Maybe doesn't require genius IQ but something more creative? </p>

<p>It is a really bad idea to use this rec form. Especially bad to send it without instructions to non-brilliant people to fill out willy-nilly. </p>

<p>Now, to make myself clear -my definition of brilliance DOES require genius IQ. Not just Mensa level, but true genius. Einstein thinking genius , not membership driven Mensa genius. Not "little Johnny scored in the genius range" genius. Two. In my life. And here's the key - two in my observation. None on the board. None of my prof's or teachers reached Einstein level brilliance. Two fellow students did BECAUSE I SAW THEIR THOUGHT PROCESSES IN ACTION. I had a real opportunity to observe them take something new and instantly twist it into something unrecognizable to me (that I later understood). It was amazing. So, on brilliance - I am a tough grader. And more importantly, it's people like me and people even less suited than me who are filling out that idiotic form.</p>

<p>Many people are capable of brilliant insight, brilliant thoughts, and even sometimes consistently brilliant work that are not brilliant people. You'd be much better off judging the quality of the product presented and not the arbitrary grading of the quality of the kid's mind by someone who may not have the intelligence or knowledge or opportunity to accurately judge.</p>

<p>If not the teachers, then who? Well, how about looking for that evidence yourself? In interviews and essays and graded writing samples. At least you'll know the limited observation opportunity you had. </p>

<p>If OTOH, you need something easy because of the mass of applications, why don't you just throw darts?</p>

166

<p>The precise wording on those MIT evaluation form checkboxes is:
[quote]
How has the applicant achieved good grades in your class? Check as many as apply.
__ By consistent hard work
__ By grade consciousness
__ By virtue of memory
__ By brilliance of mind
__ Other _____________________________________

[/quote]
There is then a following section asking, "Compared to other students you have taught, check how you would rate the applicant" in eight dimensions:</p>

<p>Interacts well with other students
Interacts well with teachers
Works well independently
Works well on a team
Reacts well to adversity
Warmth of personality
Sense of humor
Integrity</p>

<p>each of which the teacher is asked to rate as:
A notable weakness
Could be better
Okay
Better than most or
Exceptional</p>

<p>There are then a couple other comparative areas, and then a whole page of short questions about the student and the teacher's observations. It's quite in depth, actually. curm, don't be so quick to assume that MIT Admissions folks would be swayed by "best in my career" hyperbole. And also don't fool yourself that "small town kids" don't have a chance. You'd be wrong. If you'd like me to get a few dozen to write to you with their experiences while at MIT, I'd be happy to try. :) I'll go to the mat with you about whether the form is "idiotic" -- it is far from that. I'll go on record as giving two thumbs up to the MIT application, especially compared with apps for many comparable schools (having seen quite the pile of them a couple seasons ago): I think it tries to get at some of the true characteristics of the applicants in ways many other apps may not.</p>

<p>NewHope33, I wish there <em>were</em> pricey counselors who would say things like that to applicants! Doing something to make someone look "more appealing for admission" to a school is both dishonest and unfair to the student, the school, and the student's future colleagues. (But I'm either preaching to the choir about this or am hopelessly naive. You may accuse me of either, I have answered to both claims from time to time. :) )</p>

167

<p>mootmom, I'll gladly go the mat with you on the one section of the app being discussed here (and it's a lot better than had been reported). Care to respond to my specific criticisms of the use of the section I highlighted and discussed? Or the use of the word brilliant (or "brilliance of mind")? I have no ax to grind with MIT. It's the use of (that section of) the form at MIT that it is "less than optimum" . It's the whole "magic words" nonsense that bugs me. You either know the special words or you don't. </p>

<p>And I said small town or "others similarly situated", or tried to anyway LOL. I was attempting to say schools where the rec writers weren't savvy to the ins and outs of college admissions.</p>

<p>BTW, I see nothing wrong with the other section you quoted.</p>

168

<p>What I find so funny about this MIT form is the fact that it even exists in today's litigious world! Can you imagine a prospective employer sending this form out to a human resources department at the candidate's old job? I think every past employee gets a neutral rating (i.e. -- I can only conform that the candidate worked her from this date until this date), even if he's on his way to a prison cell. </p>

<p>How long will it be before lawsuits filed for lukewarm recommendations are common?</p>

169

<p>


My problem is more that I think some rec writers want to send "hot" rec's and they are being judged as "lukewarm" because they don't know the secret code , the secret words to use that better connected schools know. Diligent-bad. Conscientious-bad. Hard-working - bad. I understand that those words may be secret code for plodders and gradegrubbers for those "in the know", but they could also be the highest praise some rec writers know to use. And it does unquestionably favor the status quo.</p>

170

<p>I would rank consistent hard work as better than brilliance of mind, any day. Maybe MIT is just looking for the wrong types of students.</p>

171

<p>I haven't read the entire thread, but I am encouraged that it is so long. No one wants to take responsibility for creating a system that will have a major impact on the next generation of American educated children. I live near a major university. Our faculty friends complain that their students are burned out and disinterested. My psychiatrist friend complains that she treats at least 60% of the undergraduate population at one time or another for depression or stress related disorders. However, no one is discussing change or taking responsibility for their part in this disturbing trend. Everyone is responsible. Everyone. Not just the parents. Not just the teachers. Not just the admissions officers. Meanwhile, the five-year olds in our neighborhood are out with personal trainers and the Kumon Centers are brimming with children of four trying to get the edge on the pre-school competition. I'm watching the Today Show...Ann Curry is going to discuss whether we can make our children "smarter before they go to kindergarten" by watching their DIETS... We are talking about raising kids with higher IQs (on the tv as I write this...eat your Raisin Bran and avoid pesticides), overworking our first graders, and asking for people to judge "brilliance." Can we just take a really cold hard look at this?
I think it's a trickle down system...I would like to see college educators, admissions officers, therapists and corporate leaders get together to discuss how to develop an educational system that best serves kids, preserves childhood and promotes learning and good mental health. Someone somewhere has to take a stand and make the first step. Harvard said "no" to early admissions because it favored the disadvantaged. Bravo. Now, who is ready to take the first step to put an end to the this insanity. Brilliant kids need TIME to be creative....the innovators these colleges seek cannot emerge in a system in which they are drowning in 5 AP classes, taking SAT classes, playing sports, and getting three hours of sleep. Start by sending the message that 2 APs are fine, if you are tinkering in the garage building the next Google...or lower SATs are fine if you are spending your life working to end AIDs in Africa instead of memorizing 500 vocabulary words. Those are the people I want leading our next generation...and those are the ones who will hit the universities running and actually DO something with their educations.</p>

172

<p>where in the world does it say MIT prefers brilliance over hard-work?</p>

173

<p>and edad, no matter how "brilliant" a kid may be, I'm betting you would stress the qualities you hold most dear (consistent hard work) when writing a rec for a kid applying to a selective school. Guess what? You just torpedo'ed him. (As it's been discussed ad nauseam on CC, sometimes it's what the rec writer DOESN"T say. The words they don't use.)</p>

<p>There are many threads dealing with this rec writer problem of not knowing the "catch-phrase dujour". </p>

<p>And MIT wouldn't ask about "brilliance of mind" unless it was a criteria they were judging. As to favoring it over hard work? I doubt it. It think they want both. ;)</p>

174

<p>PS...since when has "diligent" become a bad word? Sorry, folks, but without diligence and hard work, no one could hear Yo Yo Ma's brilliance. Without diligence and hard work, one does not graduate, no matter how brilliant he is.</p>

175

<p>Favored the "advantaged" not "disadvantaged" Those who know me, also know my caffeine dependence...off for another cup.</p>

176

<p>who says diligence is bad?</p>

<p>diligent and stupid is better than lazy and stupid.</p>

177

<p>I think you might want a mixture of brilliant minds and hard workers. Some brilliant minds haven't been given the opportunity to prove (at least in the school setting) that they are capable of being hard workers.</p>

178

<p>I've done this before but I'll do it again to show the point. Teacher A savvy in the ways of the world wants to send a message to MIT that this kid just doesn't have "it" but wants to be covered in the event the rec leaks out. She uses secret code. </p>

<p>" Little Johnny is one of the hardest working kids I have seen in my thirty year career. His parents are behind his educational endeavors every step of the way and that family attention really shows in his #1 ranking. His projects are always on time and flawless. His work and study habits are beyond reproach. There is no wasted time in Little Johnny's life. He is constantly abuzz , jumping from one activity to another, serving as an officer in many at the same time! I just don't know how he finds the energy to do all those things and do them justice. Above all he is unfailingly polite and considerate to others and respectful of authority. I recommend him highly."</p>

<p>Teacher B loves little Johnny and believes he is elite college material and writes what they think is a glowing testimonial.</p>

<p>" Little Johnny is one of the hardest working kids I have seen in my thirty year career. His parents are behind his educational endeavors every step of the way and that family attention really shows in his #1 ranking. His projects are always on time and flawless. His work and study habits are beyond reproach. There is no wasted time in Little Johnny's life. He is constantly abuzz , jumping from one activity to another, serving as an officer in many at the same time! I just don't know how he finds the energy to do all those things and do them justice. Above all he is unfailingly polite and considerate to others and respectful of authority. I recommend him highly."</p>

<p>;) The only difference? The savvy of the writer . The first one knows that rec is a stake through the heart at a school that inordinately values creativity, intellect, imagination, passion over hard work discipline, striving for goals, and higher standards. The second one doesn't so she doesn't mention that other stuff. Oh, it's there in buckets. She just didn't know to mention it.</p>

179

<p>
[quote]

As to favoring [brilliance] over hard work? I doubt it. It think they want both.

[/quote]

Agreed. To be honest, I needed a lot more of the latter to get through MIT than the former. I don't think there's a right answer, although some combos are clearly better than others.</p>

<p>MIT does have a new section on the website with advice for letter-writers [url=<a href="http://www.mitadmissions.org/topics/schools/writing_evaluations/index.shtml%5Dhere%5B/url"&gt;http://www.mitadmissions.org/topics/schools/writing_evaluations/index.shtml]here[/url&lt;/a&gt;], including sample letters which have been critiqued.</p>

180

<p>I agree...but it is common knowledge that admissions officers are searching for that ellusive "Good Will Hunting." Diligence and hard work indicates that the student is a plodder... not an innovator of tomorrow...although it is also the corporate attorney, doctor, teacher, business leader, and government leader...most of what forms our society.
I would also add that teachers have no idea how a student actually achieved a grade..many students glide like ducks on the surface of ponds, while paddling furiously beneath...</p>