MIT Admissions Dean warns About College Entrance Stress

Parents Forum
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<p>Another aside, but it's still timely if nevertheless a little off-topic. (Pertaining to "elite" admissions & debates about "less qualified" students and/or "equally qualified" not getting in.)</p>

<p>I know there are legal issues regarding waivers of confidentiality, etc., & that is probably why it is still possible for students not to waive their rights & colleges to include that option & allow the students to see their recs. But I think that option is really self-defeating. On the college's part, I would be asking the teacher directly: Did you show your completed rec to the student prior to submitting it? (Understand that some students do waive their right to see the form but nevetheless are shown the completed rec by the teacher!) I think this practice is preposterous & compromises the entire process. Talk about collusion and conflict of interest. I mean, just hand the rec form to the student & have him fill it out, for heaven's sake, & the teacher signs it.</p>

<p>The point is this: If I were measuring GPA's, scores, & teacher recs of one candidate against another (from the same school), a "higher" GPA might not mean much to me, a college, if I knew that the recs get seen by the students. In that case I might be looking more at hooks than anything else. </p>

<p>To me, access to the teacher rec is one of the most corrupt ways of gaming the system out there. You wanna end gaming? End the rec access & require actual samples of original, in-class student work sent directly from the school, in a school envelope, with a teacher affidavit signature on it. Just a drop in the bucket, perhaps, but one of the ways that colleges can regain some control.</p>

<p>And please don't tell me that the teacher "needs" to do that to ensure an "accurate" recommendation. Many schools encourage a list of activities, accomplishments for the student to submit to the teacher prior to the rec. That's fine. If a teacher wants his or her memory jogged, he or she can also suggest that the student submit a self-evaluation of class work, in addition. But please, this is a teacher evaluation, not a parent or student evaluation.</p>

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<p>I have a question for the admissions types that have been participating in this thread. It seems to me that you work very hard to suss out who is being packaged and pushed, and who is being a normal kid. Is that accurate? </p>

<p>I know kids whose parents are riding them hard--making them go to test prep classes and AP exam reviews, hiring tutors to push them through AP Physics, checking the teachers' websites and micromanaging their kids' homework, hiring help to burnish the kids' essays. On paper these kids have scores that look the same, or slightly better, than the kids who roll out of bed and walk in cold to the SAT exams, or who do their own work and still manage to achieve 4s and 5s on AP exams (and who took the AP class because it sounded interesting, not because their parents made them do it).</p>

<p>In general how obvious is it to you as an admissions rep which kids are being managed and pushed and which kids are directing their own achievements?</p>

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<p>I see people (though not many on CC) conflate "best stats" with "most qualified" a lot, as though stats were the most accurate form of assessment for college admission. </p>

<p>The trouble with colleges only considering what kids do inside a regular commonly available curriculum (assuming such a thing existed) is that there even within a very specific group, like "students with 3.9 GPA and 750+ on all SATs") there can be tremendous variation in maturity, interest, motivation, organization, and myriad other factors that make a difference in how a student will do at a particular school. How would you tell the student who is willing to work hard, pursue a discipline outside of school hours, and challenge him or herself with harder courses from a bright kid who just does the bare minimum that's asked?</p>

<p>Grades aren't much help, because grading policies and the quality of instruction and assessment vary so widely. I saw this a lot when D. went to the state magnet HS. There were so many terrific kids with amazing SAT scores and GPAs who ended up not doing well. One boy in particular had never turned in homework at the neighborhood school, because his teachers gave so many bonus points on tests, he could make As without doing anything else. Put in an environment with mandatory assignments and penalties for late work, he wasn't happy and didn't do well. </p>

<p>Teacher recommendations come to mind, but I know someone who looks at recommendations for grad school admissions, and almost every applicant gets gushing letters that paint a picture of unparalleled, "best in career" brilliance--then she looks around her classroom a year later and wonders what happened. Essays are also problematic, because essay-based assessment tends to favor students with better language arts skills. Some very capable people in their subject area are deathly dull writers; thumb through a scientific journal or your average freshman college text and see for yourself.</p>

<p>The ability to show what the child can do outside of "stats" is especially salient for the child who, for whatever the reason, doesn't do well on standardized tests like the SAT (which has already been shown to have low predictive value for success in college). Taking away kids' opportunity to show what they can do by alternate assessments (like awards and competitions or AP scores), puts even more pressure on these students to do well on the SAT. By bringing in other types of assessments from other sources, you get an evaluation that's more likely to be accurate, because you have many raters looking at the same child. And as an applicant, you have many ways to show your capabilities, instead of a life-or-death standardized test. </p>

<p>While it's true that some kids have more opportunities than others, and that children shouldn't be penalized for lack of opportunity; it's also true that some kids are going to do more with the opportunities they have. Some kids are going to do something extraordinary somewhere; the opportunities just shape where you are going to see it come out, and they should get credit for that something, whatever it is. </p>

<p>On the arms race question, it's human nature to look at someone we don't know well and try to reduce their situation to easy answers that fit with what we want to believe. If it's not awards or APs, it will always be something. She got in because she was a URM, she got in because she was white, she got in because her parents are professors, she got in because she's first generation college. It's not fair to hold children responsible for whatever snap judgements random strangers are going to make about them.</p>

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<p>Mombot:</p>

<p>I'm not an admission officer, but I'll respond to your query by saying that it's not always possible to identify an applicant who has been groomed to a fare-thee-well. Two examples come to mind: Blair Hornstine and Kayvaa Wiswanathan. In fairness, they seem like very able young women who might have gotten in anyway without all the packaging that they went through.</p>

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<p>conyat, You make a lot of excellent points, I think. I only disagree somewhat on the teacher rec issue. That's why I suggest that without qualitative statements (& possibly samples) to back up the quantitative teacher assessments, opportunities for "gushing" are rampant, & not subject to further review.</p>

<p>However, as to the difficulty with the language arts issue, sorry, that doesn't fly with me. The candidate needs to demonstrate written expression. Now, the college can decide how to weight that. If the college believes it is willing to overlook a candidate weak in expression but strong to the point of brilliant in laboratory science & math, that's the college's business, & it gets what it deserves (both positively & negatively). At some point, in grad school, beyond grad school, in the job marketplace, a graduate needs to <em>communicate</em> their grand & brilliant ideas & scientific results. A measure of their current ability and/or future potential to do that is a valid measure of their worth as an undergrad admit, i.m.o.</p>

<p>Many, many selective colleges (the Ivies included, to my knowledge) require freshman writing seminars or some other undergrad demonstration of an ability to communicate accurately & effectively in the English language. So even if a h.s. senior has not demonstrated that by Feb. 1 of Sr. Yr., that student will need to demonstrate it soon thereafter.</p>

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<p>
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The candidate needs to demonstrate written expression.

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<p>Oh, ITA. But the trouble with putting too much reliance on essays, is that essays are often a different form of writing from what's required in college and often the workplace. How many times have we heard that a good essay has an engaging writing style that lets the student's personality shine though? Then in college writing, after freshman comp type courses, first person and informal devices are usually not allowed. And the structure morphs from anecdotal, narrative (what admissions essays usually are) to whatever is required by the demands of the situation.</p>

<p>I agree that college applicants need to be able to communicate well in writing, but I am not sure that essays like "What's the wisest thing anyone ever told you" have good predictive validity for college and workplace writing. Asking for samples like you suggested (at least I think it was you) of the student's best work would probably be a better means of assessment.</p>

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<p>agreed, conyat (with regard to application essays, esp.) That's why some top U's require actual sample analytical papers or research papers as submissions, sometimes in addition to the app. essays. When these are submitted by the teachers there is no opportunity for altering them -- unless the teacher is so low-life that he or she is willing to "fix" them somehow. My D had to submit a couple of diff. samples to a couple of diff. U's. (i.e., graded papers demonstrating intellectual reach).</p>

<p>I have never thought much of the broad, subjective questions asked often by colleges & also by the SAT I WR and SAT II WR exams.</p>

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<p>I'd wondered if it was kosher to include course descriptions in one's admission materials. Our school offers some wonderful post-AP stuff, but unless the adcom knows our school well, one would have no idea what kind of work it entails. The school profile gets into statistics for the program my son is in and the stats for the school, and lists the available courses, but no details.</p>

<p>My son's math teacher says he gets emails from professors all the time asking why kid X is asking to place out of sophomore-level college math courses. He sends a copy of the course description and some of the tests to the profs to demionstrate the rigor of his course. Usually that suffices, but of course, that is after the kid is admitted.</p>

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<p>CountingDown, could you ask the post-AP teachers to write up a short description of their classes (which may already exist) and ask the GC to include those summaries with the school profile for students for whom it's relevant? I'll bet it would be helpful for more than just your son!</p>

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<p>
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That's why some top U's require actual sample analytical papers or research papers as submissions, sometimes in addition to the app. essays.

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<p>I didn't realise that was already happening. I think it's great. I'm sure the teacher also is asked to certify that the work is consistent with what would be expected from the student, so that gets around the issue we keep hearing of parents having essays written for their child.</p>

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<p>Dean Jones stated that MIT is looking for at least some kids who are not dull robots but who are alive and innovative. There seems to be a lot of speculation as to what this means. I don't think we will ever be able to translate this into criteria which are exact or quantitative. I believe this is more of a philosophy and decisions are very subjective. </p>

<p>My D did not apply to MIT, but was accepted at an elite college that used some non-traditional criteria. They claimed to try to look past the statistics to see the "whole" person. A few years ago schools started looking for passion. Now I would say they are looking something similar. I would label it personality.</p>

<p>My D would fit into the 70 out a 1000 would not not have been admitted with more traditional criteria. She is a white female from a well represented East coast suburban area. She had SATs, gpa and class rank in the bottom 25%. She had some community service, participated in sports, but did not excel, and had quite a bit of music experience. None of these were exceptional or even close to being a hook. As a parent, I would describe my D as very individualistic, mature, self-confident, self-motivated and determined. She sets her own goals and works very hard to achieve them. I have no doubt that it was these personality traits which were important in her admissions offers. I am not sure how adcoms evaluate the whole person. I suspect my daughters recommendations helped. We did not see them but were told that one was an especially powerful description of my daughter. The alumni interview may have been important. Judging by followup emails, it appears that she made a strong and favorable impression. Finally, I think the application essays and short answers helped. They were not exceptional, but they did reflect her personality.</p>

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<p>I also would love to see the teacher recommendation requirement altered. The suggestions above by epiphany are great. For one thing, there is so much diversity among teachers themselves. Some are more enthusiastic in nature, superior at writing, and better at relating to students compared to their colleagues. Why does this matter? Well, generally junior year teachers are the ones being asked most often to supply recs. Some kids may "luck out" junior year and get a several of these good sources for rec. letters--others may not and may be forced to either risk weaker letters or use teachers from soph. year whose memories of them aren't as fresh. I, for one, remember the angst over whom to ask. </p>

<p>Secondly, I would think that the rec. system might also benefit students who are strong in liberal arts more than students who are strong in the sciences, since the teachers of those disciplines may very well be better writers than, say, math and science teachers. (Remember, we aren't always talking about MIT-caliber folks here, so none of you math/science people who are also wonderful writers should take offense.)</p>

<p>Then there are the teachers who love popularity and being known as "good guys," and just write stronger letters. Several teachers at our HS are well known for writing wonderful recs that, shall we say, overstate the students' positive attributes.</p>

<p>And let's not forget about politics and conflicts of interest. For example, we found out after the fact that my son's favorite teacher who taught his strongest subject had had difficulty being objective when writing his rec letters. As per her own admission, she struggled with it because her S, who attended the same HS, was applying to mostly the same colleges. Although her child was a good student, she knew he was a weaker applicant than my S. While I hope she was professional enough to keep herself in check, that could have been risky business. </p>

<p>Lastly, each year the senior class is different and thus the point of reference when making inter-student comparisons shifts. My S's graduating class was an especially strong one; teachers said it was by far the brightest group to pass through the school. This meant that the kids who were in the majority of his classes were truly brilliant. The teachers had to save their superlatives for those genius kids. But just because a student may not have been the best in the class compared to the genius kids didn't mean s/he wasn't extremely smart. This is where work samples would really help make that clear.</p>

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<p>In the case you cite, GFG, as a teacher I would probably decline to write any recs for anyone during the particular year my own child was applying to those same colleges -- but even more so from the same high school! It is virtually impossible to be objective in such a case -- no matter how professional the teacher. (And that teacher sounds professional & well-intended.)</p>

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<p>Yes, that was my opinion too, epiphany. And let's not forget also the pressure the other teachers may have felt when writing recs. for the child of a colleague. When her son was admitted to a particular school and my son was not, she was rather distressed and offered to personally contact the school on his behalf as well as ask another teacher to do the same. Guilt?</p>

<p>Another factor I should have mentioned which may be contributing to the dead classroom phenomenon is brown-nosing and currying favor in order to earn better grades and better recs. Many of my son's friends would NEVER EVER even have thought of debating with a teacher or presenting an opinion contrary to that of a teacher. What if the teacher became offended (and sometimes they do) or lowered their grade because they had disagreed? Do we really want entire classes of meek grade-grubbing kids who always tow the party line? How boring!</p>

<p>Secondly, some people are just more personable and likeable than others. Since this is college admissions, not an interview for a sales job or Miss Congeniality, why should popularity with teachers be a criterion? You can't convince me a teacher won't give a better rec to a student s/he likes better.</p>

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<p>GFG, regarding your last sentence, you perhaps "can't be convinced" because it may be difficult to relate to the fact that truly professional teachers have similar attitudes toward their work & role in the classroom as a physician has to a patient. It sounds cold & is very hard to explain without sounding detached, but it is the opposite of detachment while at the same time characterized by a suspension of "personal" (or "ego") involvement. I can write as accurate & fair a recommendation for a student whose personality I warm to, as to a student whose style or personality I feel lukewarm about. It is the teacher's job to get to know the student & the student's learning style exactly as the student is, not as he/she wants the student to be or behave.</p>

<p>In fact (for example) there were some students in my older D's class whom I adored as if they were my own daughters. But I know, and could see, that they were not top students. Were I their teacher, I would have had no trouble writing a balanced rec for such a student, focusing on their potential, not on their likeability. (Similar for students I liked less as people but who demonstrated superior potential.)</p>

<p>Be careful of projecting one's own assumptions into what you assume a teacher will think, feel, write about a student.</p>

<p>Also, in a rigorous school or a rigorous individual classroom, the true teacher will welcome controversy & the provocateur. It shows that the brain is engaged, not asleep.</p>

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<p>"Now, this is an interesting thread. I have a S currently in the process--supposedly--of preparing an EA app to MIT. He is scheduled to interview in a couple of days. I WISH I could get this kid frantic. He has a great record, probably has a decent shot, and shows literally NO nerves. He told me he has no intention of spending several months devoted to "getting into college" stuff. Does laid back arrogance get you any points? Maybe its just the midwest."</p>

<p>Nope. My NY kid is just the same. He hasn't even lined up an interview yet.</p>

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<p>"Actually, the MIT teacher's rec form tries to meet some of these issues. It asks the teacher to explain whether a student received a particular grade by virtue of being conscientious, a good memorizer, grade-conscious, or brilliant."</p>

<p>And frankly this makes me nervous. I don't think my son's teachers are aware of how little time he spends on homework!</p>

<p>He did think that his AP Physics teacher was aware that he found Physics very easy. I'm not sure that his AP Latin teacher knows him as well. (And I'd say for that course everything but grade conscious would be a reasonable answer.)</p>

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<p>Maybe you just need to realize that undergrad really isnt all that important? If youre expecting to go to a great college and be a success becuase of that quit smoking the reef becuase that isnt going to happen. Its funny how often I meet people (professionals who have done very well) and they dont come from any "top notch" uni.</p>

<p>The only thing a "top" school gives is an experience. If youre just doing it becuase its supposedly "good" stop wasting your time.</p>

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<p>I would just note that my daughter's best recommendation came from an English & history teacher who she had frequent conflict with. My D. would come home from class exasperated sometimes, telling me that the whole class period had been wasted debating some point or other. In fact, I was quite suprised that my D. asked this particular teacher for a recommendation.... but I was astounded when I saw the letter itself. She wrote that my daughter kept the classroom discourse "intellectually challenging" and that she "raised the bar" for all of the other students -- obviously the teacher viewed my d's habit of challenging her point of view in a positive light. </p>

<p>I'd also note that my son was the kind of student who always challenged authority and demanded a lot from his teachers, and he also had excellent recommendations that were very accurate in describing his personality. </p>

<p>I think one of the values of letters is that a good picture of the student's personality and strengths can emerge. This is something that is actually rather important to the selection of students for college, since in a sense it answers the question, "If we let this kid in, how is s/he going to function in the classroom?" I honestly don't think it is a matter of how much the teacher likes the student, so much as what kind of impression the student actually made on the teacher.</p>

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<p>I can appreciate your points, calmom and epiphany, and believe them to be valid. However, those comments pertain to what epiphany calls "true teacher"s. They pertain to the professionally-behaving, intelligent, and experienced teacher. Above all, they pertain to the self-confident teacher. In a fast-growing district like ours, we are inundated with twenty-somethings. After a few years they will be marvelous, but during the first few years they lack both the knowledge and the self-confidence to deal well with the very bright child who challenges them. They feel threatened, perhaps not quite up to the task, and may react in an immature fashion. Remember, they may not even have tenure yet and worry about keeping up the appearance of being in control and having the classroom power in their court. A student who disrupts that goal will be a troublemaker. This is understandable. Frankly, I would be completely intimidated having to teach the likes of my sons' friends.</p>