<p>Achat: if he is, well, I say good for him, it means he's going somewhere!</p>
<p>Most kids experience a big increase in the work required when they go from high school to college. But most kids are able to make adjustments without jeopardizing their mental health. It's like being a new parent - at first you feel like you have to sterilize everything the baby puts in his mouth, change the baby's clothes every time he spits up, and keep up your previous standards of household cleanliness. But even the most perfectionist parents pretty quickly learn to lower their expectations. It isn't a reason not to have a baby. And being a perfectionist student should not necessarily be a reason to avoid a demanding college. This really is not all that high stakes. You might decide that you prefer to switch to a major or college that requires less work, but there is little risk of actually flunking out of most schools and being forced to leave if you are making a reasonable effort.</p>
<p>I will wade in here. First, few students at selective colleges are unable to succeed academically these days. Many chalk it up to grade inflation others give the credit to improvements in the admissions process. Second, the academic challenges facing students depend on the academic major they choose. The old engineering orientation line, "look to your left, look to your right..." may have not been too much of an exaggeration, but most students merely choose to switch majors and ultimately graduated. Finally Marite mentioned those plodders who are hardworking conscientious students. I can recall only a few instances where these students did not graduate for other than personal reasons.</p>
<p>And most students are also smart enough to properly pace themselves when putting together their academic programs. They soon know which mandatory courses are extraordinarily difficult and work intensive and avoid scheduling more than one per semester. Most engineering students avoid taking more than one reading/writing intensive course per semester. Most LA majors know which science courses to avoid.</p>
<p>Finally I believe that most students are happiest when their self-motivation comfort level matches the academic requirements of the college or academic major they select. There is a reason why more than one third of the Harvard undergraduate student body show symptoms of clinical depression. Because admissions into Harvard is so extraordinarily selective, many applicants have functioned far beyond their self-motivation comfort level throughout high school, hyper-achieved, resulting in emotional, physical and developmental stresses that they are unable to cope with in a healthy manner.</p>
<p>Like normal physical systems, most people find an equlibrium state where their natural abilities and motivation comfort level matches the responsibilities they are called to handle. I believe that this is bourne out by the findings of Krueger and Dale in their study on the post-graduate "success" of college graduates.</p>
<p>I love this thread! D and I went to an information session at one of the ivies this summer. They had a student, along with the admissions officer, who was there partly to counteract the impression that you had to be brilliant to be accepted into that school. She told us that she and everyone she has met were not brilliant and, in fact, felt as if they were "admission mistakes." She might have meant that to be encouraging to prospective applicants, but I found it totally horrifying. I don't want D to feel like it was a "mistake" that she was accepted into her college; I want her to feel as if she and the college know, as far as is possible, that she'll be a good fit. She's most likely not applying to that school, but she's still aiming high. And I have asked her--more than once--if she will mind not getting the As she's getting in high school and not necessarily doing the best or close to the best in a particular subject. She insists she can manage that and that she will adore being around other people who love to learn. At the very least, I've been teaching her time management skills since she was in 6th grade and she's doing okay with them.</p>
<p>This thread is getting more interesting... When we were considering private secondary schools, our D's 6th grade teachers posed a couple of questions to us: "Would you be comfortable sending her to a highly competitive school where she will be a consistent B or even C student?" And..."What about sports? Would you be comfortable if she never had an opportunity to participate in a sport because she is not a recruited athlete?" It was very thought provoking...and it reinforced the concept of thinking in terms of the right fit for the child---not about prestige or about us (as parents). We'll always be thankful for that "advice."</p>
<p>In the past, medical schools routinely admitted 2-3 times as many students as they intended to graduate. In the 1960s, that changed. Society demanded more opportunities for minorities, and more diversity in the ranks of physicians. If medical schools had continued to flunk out the bottom half of every class, they would have lost too many students they wanted to retain for societal reasons. So the culture of medical schools changed to one in which every admitted student is now expected to graduate, and is given enough support to make it possible. That's a change that benefits everyone who goes to medical school now. The same sort of process is at work at selective colleges - the vast majority of students who are accepted to selective colleges can graduate if they put in some pretty reasonable level of effort. You might have to work yourself to death if you're trying to be valedictorian, but it is not that bad if you are just trying to get by.</p>
<p>We suffered through this with our son. He is a soph at MIT. Through high school he was a perfectionist, and I didn't see how he would deal with the workload at MIT.</p>
<p>I reminded him of this when he was accepted. I urged him to reconsider attending MIT. He decided to attend.</p>
<p>So is it all good news? No. He had a brutal freshman year. We're grateful for the fall's semester's pass/no record. Spring was still a learning curve and his gpa took a beating. Maybe it will affect grad school admissions.</p>
<p>This year he is much better at blowing off certain classes and assignments to keep afloat. Despite the trouble, he loves being where he is.</p>
<p>They can learn to shed perfectionism. But I think the key is motivation, as others have noted. And the important part of that motivation is that the decision to attend the tough school should be the student's <em>own.</em> It is not the best choice for some kids. It helps to play devil's advocate to test their desire and determination.</p>
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<blockquote> <p>Finally I believe that most students are happiest when their self-motivation comfort level matches the academic requirements of the college or academic major they select. There is a reason why more than one third of the Harvard undergraduate student body show symptoms of clinical depression. Because admissions into Harvard is so extraordinarily selective, many applicants have functioned far beyond their self-motivation comfort level throughout high school, hyper-achieved, resulting in emotional, physical and developmental stresses that they are unable to cope with in a healthy manner.>></p> </blockquote>
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<p>Although I am skeptical about the methodology used in the survey that resulted in the findings that 1/3 of Harvard students are depressed, this quote is very important. While it's true that most selective colleges have instituted support systems that enable students to perform adequately enough not to flunk out, there should be more to college than just hanging on by the skin of one's teeth. </p>
<p>Let's consider an apocryphal student. Is s/he a perfectionist who need to do five drafts of the first draft of a paper plus another three drafts of the revised version? Is the student consistently staying well past bedtime to finish projects? Is the work that is produced A level quality or well beyond A level? Does the student "get it" easily or does it take a lot of practice? Does the student absorb information easily or is s/he a slow, methodical reader? Is the student motivated by interest in the subject matter, the joy of learning, or interested primarily in getting good grades? Does the student relish challenging assignments? Is the student an anxious type? How well does the student handle less than stellar grades? Does the student do better on timed tests or on projects that are assigned in advance? In another thread, there was a discussion of the merits of the quarter system vs. the semester system. A student who gets anxious over exams might prefer the semester system. </p>
<p>To get back to Curmudgeon's D, the teachers seem to have great faith in her ability to excel; this should be sufficient for her to consider applying to the toughest colleges. The only caveat I would have would concern her personality. An anxiety-prone student may find that characteristic reinforced by colleges that are known for their intensely intellectual atmosphere (I'm thinking of places like Chicago or MIT and Caltech which are considered to be more intense than HYP).</p>
<p>achat -
if the metaphor that comes to mind is a duck, I think you know in your heart your son will be ok. The duck's gonna float, come what may. It's the creatures in the pond that don't belong that are the worry.</p>
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<blockquote> <p>Exactly. The P/F semester sounds like a very good idea. If you don't mind me asking, how did the transition from "I can do everything at 'A' level " to college reality go?</p> </blockquote>
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<p>It's still in the process of "going" so I really don't have a complete answer! I will say that the pass/fail first semester is relieving a lot of stress.</p>
<p>As far as adjusting to the workload, that part is going just fine. Her college is notorious for the amount of reading and work, but "D" sounds like she has been able to keep up with it pretty well and adjust things as necessary. For example, during mid-term exam week, she had to blow off her reading assignment for a seminar...but she got to class and found out that all 11 kids had decided on the same course of action! She caught up over fall break. Overall, my impression is that handling the workload is OK and she's got a good balance of studying hard, but finding time to have fun. She's so happy that it would hard to detect any stress.</p>
<p>The hurdle that is going to be more challenging is the mental transition from high school to college level thinking. To try to communicate what I am talking about: In high school, if you learn the material and successfully answer questions demonstrating that you have learned the material, you will get an "A". For example, in math, if you get the right answer, that's an "A". At least at my D's college, that will get you a "C" at best. The exams assume that you have learned the material and ask you to use what you have learned to come up with an analysis or way of attacking some new problem. So, not only is learning the material essential, but being able to apply that knowledge in a creative, intellectual way is expected. </p>
<p>That is a HUGE learning curve. I know my my daughter is wrestling with it, particularly because it's hitting her in her "best" subject - math, where learning how to apply rules to solve problems is no longer enough. I don't think the poor kid had ever seen a calculus quiz with a "Why?" question!</p>
<p>She will figure it out, but I suspect she'll take a few lumps along the way. As I read the alumni essays from her college, this is clearly a fundamental transition that generations of students have been forced to make -- and, in fact, this is probably THE core kernal of a liberal arts education.</p>
<p>Anyway....back to the overall topic. Just as important as considering the degree of difficulty in college selection is spending some time trying to get some feel for the level of support at each particular college. Part of that is the "official" channels -- tutoring programs, etc. But, there's also an informal type of support (prof. connected with the students, students working together, etc.) that varies quite a bit from school to school. This is one reason that we tended to prefer schools with a tight-knit "community" over schools where each student is a bit of island left to fend for him or herself. I would feel better about an academic reach at a "community" school than I would at an "island" school.</p>
<p>I agree with everyone else: this is an important issue. I think so much depends on each individual's ability to handle and process stress. My son loves to be stretched academically - he doesn't see it as stressful, but as a challenge. My daughter, on the other hand, tends to get depressed, anxious and stressed out when faced with too much academic challenge. It's not that she isn't capable of doing the work - she just does better emotionally when she doesn't feel overwhelmed by too much of a stretch.
I've realized that the type of college she will be happiest at is going to be very different from the type of school my son will thrive at. And that's fine: they will both find their own paths in life.</p>
<p>Yes, think about fit, but don't assume she won't do well in the top schools. Organization and planning ahead can take you a long way. Even at the top schools, loaded with over achievers, the majority of people are not brilliant. Well prepared, perhaps, hard working, bright, and so on, but not scary brilliant. Course the ones that stay in your mind are the brilliant ones. Back in the day, when I was a student, I remember this one kid that started college at 16, wrote some of his papers straight into the typewriter a couple of hours before they were due (and got A's), and went on to become a Rhodes scholar, seemingly with ease. He was the exception though, not the rule!</p>
<p>First, what a beautiful op. You write well, cur.</p>
<p>Second, as a classic 'winger' (competitive lights did not come on until I was 20, 3rd year of architecture school)--and the parent of two 'wingers' aka as 'recalcitrant' students lol--it was reassuring to hear the worries of a parent with the opposite conundrum. Thanks for sharing.</p>
<p>Finally, you're right. You don't get a vote and you simply CANNOT express these doubts to your D lest they break her heart. She could remember them until she is 47 and that would be sad, wouldn't it?</p>
<p>My advice is: trust the process. It can be gut wrenching, but most CC parents were pleased with the final results. My 'recalcitrant' S applied to a program that was WAY over his head and I worried about the fit. The students in the lounge didn't remind me of S1.</p>
<p>Ha! He didn't get in! It all worked out. He's plenty challenged (by life mostly) and thrilled to be at university. </p>
<p>And who wouldn't be? As Jamimom says, American colleges and universities are really Disney halfway houses.</p>
<p>My undergraduate college way back when (25 years ago) was a halfway house too and even more so and it wasn't in the US.</p>
<p>very good points by all...</p>
<p>My S sounds like cangel's D: he always did "good enough" to get where he wanted, but sometimes shaved it almost too close. This worries me, as he is in a very demanding school now. He's doing fine, I think, but it's starting to pile up; his time management skills are sketchy, and he may be experiencing a wobble now in his trajectory. Someone on this thread mentioned the problem of the val from the less adequate hs who fell apart at Harvard. S also comes from an inadequate hs, but he has boundless confidence that he can keep up with anyone (at least in reading/writing type clsses; he's decided he's lost interest in math/science--possibly cuz of the hs, and is looking at a huamnties type major). Hopefully, his uneven work ethic will not undo him.</p>
<p>D, on the other hand, works extremely hard at whatever she commits to, but does not have the confidence of her bro, though she has, I believe, the same level of ability. She also did fine in a tough school, but she stressed the entire four years about whether she was keeping up or not (graduated in the top ten percent, so I guess she did.)</p>
<p>I concur with Cheers: expressing your doubts could be tremendously damaging. What I did do with my S, though, is probe his level of commitment for the type of academic stress he was getting himself into: never questioning whether he could do it, but whether was he cognizant of the difficulty, and willing to take it on.</p>
<p>I think that one of the best things that we can do for our children is to not only remind them that college is not H.S. and it is a big adjustment. The adjustment period is longer for some than for others. </p>
<p>I feel that it is extremely important to let our kids know that they are not in this process alone. There is no shame in asking for help, going to tutoring or even dropping a class if they feel that they have gone above their heads, ad many times kids feel the need to suffer in silence. This can be especially hard for a kid who was a big fish in h.s and now find themselves among many big fishes. all that they can or should ask of themselves is that they have done their best work</p>
<p>I have to join in because I disagree with cheers and garland. Curmudgeon, you say you "don't have a vote," and I guess that's true. But I think you can and should have a voice. While the final decision should be your daughter's, I think you can express doubts about some of the more exacting schools without risking psychological damage that will last for decades! You don't have to say that you don't think she can handle the work - that doesn't really seem to be the case anyway. You can say that you are concerned that she might not really enjoy her years in college if the school is <em>so</em> demanding. You can choose either to make your concern personal - "Remember a couple of days ago when you had that mini-meltdown about the 2-page Spanish paper, even though you knew you could write a good paper and that in the end you'll get an A in the class?" - or to make it more general - "Do you think the kids at this school are getting a great education <em>and</em> enjoying themselves? Remember that these four years are a <em>part</em> of your life to be savored, not just <em>preparation</em> for life."</p>
<p>I don't think you should hesitate to speak up!</p>
<p>I kind of agree with BigTex. There's nothing wrong in asking your daughter some open-ended questions to get her to think about what she really wants. The answer may surprise you.</p>
<p>There are so many more facets to the college experience than just being able to say "I go to (insert name of prestigious school here.)" If they must work so incredibly hard just to keep up or to match that school's work ethic, are they able to experience those great late night discussions, road trips, EC's, or relationships that will be the catalyst for development? You want them to grow as individuals, not suffer regression! </p>
<p>D #2 is a freshman at her reach college and while it is the right place for her ultimately, stress has caused all kinds of adjustment issues that might have been avoided at a smaller, more nurturing, less competitive place. At D #3's high school, the grading policy has changed for this year, so formerly straight A students are looking at letters on their interims that they haven't seen since Grover and Sesame Street. The anxiety level here is such that D #3 will likely go to whatever her safety school is just to be able to feel on top of things.</p>
<p>Bigtex: I guess I didn't express myself clearly. I agree with Cheers that expressing doubts about her ability to succeed at these schools (which the OP had alluded to) would be damaging. I then followed that with a description of my conversations with my son, as an example of guidance in the form of making sure the student considers the fit of the school to him/herself, including the level of academic commitment each school might necessitate. Sorry if I wasn't clear.</p>