Moment of clarity?

Parents Forum
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<p>For me, as a student, the first time I really ever had to struggle with time management and actually finishing my work in a timely manner was in sophomore year of high school, when my gliding ran smack into a very painful wall of AP Euro and a rather demanding honors English course in addition to my other classes. Prior to that, I didn't feel particularly challenged and I feel that my grades suffered as a result (you know, the "unchallenged smart kid" syndrome)... I certainly didn't have any study skills or much organization when it came to school, because I hadn't previously needed it.</p>

<p>However, I did live to tell the tale, and I suppose Euro didn't scare me off from too many other AP courses, as I will have taken ten by the time I graduate come June. There are always rough spots, but I have gradually learned to accomodate my anxiety about grades as the understanding that school is for learning and not grades dawned on me. It's been a slow-approaching ephihany, and I've yet to completely convince myself or my parents (exhibit A: freaking out after school because of a BC calc test), but I always come back to something that sophomore English teacher said.</p>

<p>We'd all just recieved failing grades on a 40-question test on a piece of Greek literature we had just finished reading at the time; for many of us, it was the first true failing grade we'd ever seen. Naturally, the anxiety level in the class was quite high, and rose significantly as he explained that there would be no curve on the exam. What many of my classmates missed as they complained loudly was what followed that, where he told us that grades didn't have much of a meaning to him, but he understood why many of us were having a rough time accepting them. Society places such a high value on grades, even though many/most of them do not come close to fully reflect a student's ability to deal with the information, but instead conform to a set of standards. After elementary school (at least in our district), there is no measure of effort or enthusiasm or interest, everything is based on the raw numbers.</p>

<p>I guess the whole point of this is to emphasize that your D is probably a lot better off than it seems like she might be, especially if she knows what kind of material really fascinate her. As some other poster pointed out, there's probably little question that she'll do wonderfully in college (even with some minor meltdowns), but it's a matter of allowing enough time to indulge in the other facets of college life.</p>

<p>Good luck :)</p>

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<p>There are a great deal of thoughts in this thread that will take me some time to sort through. I am very thankful for every response. They have been informed and informative. As to any idea that I would express doubts to D about her ability to succeed at the highest workload schools, I think I understood all the posts to say " don't let yourself be the one to kill her dreams" and I have zero intention of doing that. I will and do ask her to make hard decisions about her life. Sometimes I have asked her to make decisions that others think are above her age level. Ever since toddler time I have said, "that's not a decision you get to make for yourself this year. This year how you dress is still mom and dad's decision. But every year you get to make more and more choices for yourself." And we have lived up to that. Well,we don't pick out their clothes anymore, do we? God, I sure hope we did this right. BTW dcmom3 ,"letters they haven't seen since Grover and Sesame Street" is a truly inspired line. I will steal it and say it's mine, if you don't mind. LOL.</p>

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<p>Cur,
Help yourself to the Sesame Street analogy. I borrow all the time. Today's post was brought to you by the letters D and E.</p>

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<p>This was the most enlightening and thought-provoking post i've read. I've took the time to read through the posts, of which all have contributed something or another. I've kind of known this all along, but never understand it so clearly as now/convert my thoughts to concrete words. Thanks for sharing your thoughts, curmudgeon, all those who have posted, and the registered to post in this very thread.
* * * *
This reminds me of something I've recently learned in which a piece of literature defined genius as being able to 'see'/understand things even if s/he does not know exactly how to come up with the proof; in other words, they can come up with the answer w/o having to show their work. I've heard of people who are able to ace math tests without showing their work. They just get it, just like that. It astounds me. </p>

<p>There are some subjects that I have to work extremely hard it and that take hours to study/complete. But then again, a few subjects (granted some effort must be put forth) I understand a whole better; the material 'clicks' for me. I think there will be things in life that we have to work hard in order to understand, but there are some things that we just understand more than others, kind of like how everyone has different talents that they are skilled at. </p>

<p>I definitely think that all students should take THIS factor (everything this thread is talking about-what shall we call it?) into consideration when applying to colleges, and when they select which college to attend. Hopefully, this will soon become more of a factor on everybody's college list. However, I certainly hope they don't limit themselves by fearing the challenge. </p>

<p>Now I'm not a parent, but I'm wondering.. do you think the ability to 'wing it' (as curmudgeon puts it; wow, there's so many things that this thread talks about that i can't assign a word to) is a genetic trait, or individuals are randomly born with it, or do you think this 'wing it' ability is in part due to how the child was raised,how their learning/study skills evolved through the years or a combination of some of the above?</p>

<p>Longest post I've written, thanks to the thought-provokingness (here i go again creating words) that i've gained from reading the OP and the posts that followed :)</p>

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<p>Just remember that the "top" colleges often have lots of support, academically and socially, and that they frequently graduate more than 90% of their incoming students. I originally worried about my daughter attending a well-ranked small private university, because I thought it might be so much work that there wouldn't be time to have fun. Ha! She is so much less stressed than high school. In high school grades really mattered to get into college, and she was doing tons of different activities (that she loved - but still took lots of time). In college she is having a blast, meeting great people, and still studying hard. She no longer feels like she has to make great grades, just that she has to find what she is most interested in and pursue that passion. She is not a "stressed" kind of person, though, so it is a little different from the OP's kid..... but, just because it is a "top" school, doesn't necessarily mean that it is going to be so much harder than a less prestigious school. (I mean, the textbooks are the same for many of the classes, aren't they? The amount of work, and the expectations for papers, etc. may be a bit higher - but some of it is the same.)</p>

46

<p>Teal:</p>

<p>There are so many different issues involved here. A few random comments:
My S is the kind that "gets" math very quickly. He actually had to learn how to explain how he got solutions to problems when he prepared for AP-Calculus: there is a section called Free Response Questions where students are expected to "show their math." It's been invaluable as he has moved on to proofs.
He reads very quickly, but like many students who are strong in math and science, he reads for information, on the surface. He does not necessarily gets the deeper meanings to be found in literary texts. So, there, he cannot "wing it."
A couple of years ago, he helped a student who had trouble with a biology text. It turned out that the student had no real study skills. He read the passage without being able to extract the relevant information; so he kept on reading it to the point that he was memorizing the whole passage and still was unable to say what the central idea was. Perhaps that student had trouble across all subjects. But I remember a college roommate of mine who could not figure out how to extract the main information from texts on art history; she was a chemistry major and did not seem to have any trouble in her science courses.
In general, however, I would say that the more one reads, the more quickly one learns how to absorb the main arguments of a piece of reading.
I am not surprised that you have to work harder at some subjects than at others. It is quite normal. One issue we have not discussed in this thread is choice of majors. Knowing one's strengths as well as one's interests is important.
In the discussions, some posters wrote about the different ways the same grade can be achieved and colleges' interests in identifying brilliant students as opposed to hard-working plodders. In high school, students are often asked to merely absorb information. Good teachers, however, will teach critical reading skills. Some students have greater facility at analyzing and synthesizing information than others; identifying biases and perspectives; drawing connections with other information, sometimes across disciplines. These are the kinds of students who will excel in college.
Personality is of some importance. There are also students who perform very well under pressure and do well on timed tests and others who love to do research and write and re-write drafts. When I was a college sophomore, one of my classmates wrote a term paper that she showed me before handing it in. She very anxiously asked whether I thought it was any good. When the prof read it, he suggested that it ought to be published with only minor revisions: it was that good. This student was obvioulsy extremely talented, but she had no self-confidence and she was a nervous wreck at every exam. She also was a perfectionist and was not able to overcome that characteristic. She decided not to go on to graduate school: she could not face another two years of them or the anxiety of writing papers (needless to say, she panicked at the idea of publishing her paper and never revised it).</p>

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<p>The simple answer is yes, there are HUGE genetic differences that are difficult to categorize.</p>

<p>Working as an architect with engineers and highly successful business people, experience tells me the mature creative brain is relatively uncommon. In fact, it's noticeably uncommon on the CC board and probably uncommon among high achieving HYP applicants--and that's because the creative brain is able to destroy concepts, ideas, beauty, classroom order, buildings and the like. Readily and happily. </p>

<p>It's in the destruction that a creative brain discovers invention and gets that surge, 'free flow' or whatever. Creative brains LIKE to destroy what they learned from Grover. They like to go from A to M to B to Z to Q. (Oh yeah, that feels really, really good) . </p>

<p>Linear brains break out in hives if they CANNOT go from A to B to C to D. (This is how structural engineering and accounting were invented. They put creative accountants in jail, don't they?).</p>

<p>It might be that a number of "wingers" are, in fact, latent creative brains. Creative brains might not develop at the same rate as linear brains. Eventually, creative brains are persuaded to incorporate coping mechanisms that provide a varying degree of 'linear' fake; ie we do checking accounts and families. </p>

<p>However, there may be a large number of complete crossovers to the.... Linear Side. </p>

<p>Then again, the blends are infinite. Perhaps the degree of creativity is lower, ie a particular creative brain likes to go from A to B to C to Q(whoops!) to D--Martha Stewart, if you will. She seems like a basic linear type with a dash of creativity.</p>

<p>At the other end: Vincen van Gogh. All creativity, no linear dash. Creative brains (happily destroying everything in sight) might be especially prone to self-destruction, divorce, isolation, mutilated ears and so forth.</p>

<p>What does this mean for the young 'wingers' of the world? First, be honest. Are you sure you're not just a slacker? :cool: </p>

<p>If you're certain your less-than-stellar performance in the linear world is NOT just an excuse for slacking--and it may not be possible to evaluate without hindsight-- then go right ahead and remodel your concept of life and success. </p>

<p>If you have creative talent--talent being a function of speed (thinking of Marite's S here), daring and memory--then find something you love and you'll be away with the fairies, as they say.</p>

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<p>Here's a story I HAVE to tell about "winging it:" During 10th grade biology, we were required to do an oral report every 6 weeks about some science topic that we had investigated, experimented with, or whatever. My best friend and I had completely forgotten about it. First, the valedictorian-to-be was called, and she gave a talk on her ongoing science fair project that was of course college-graduate-level microbiology something or other. Next I was called on and had to admit that I had done nothing. Then my friend was called on. I waited for him to also admit that he was unprepared, but he got up and walked up to the front of the class to give a report. What was he doing, I wondered? He then proceeded to give the biggest BS story about touring the copper mines of Peru and what he learned there. He got an A for his presentation!!!</p>

<p>I asked him later about whether he had ever been to Peru or not and he said "Of course not. And I don't even know if there ARE copper mines in Puru or not." How could he tell SUCH a tall tale? His answer to that was the more brazen the BS, the better the chance to get away with it. And he was sure that the teacher had never been to Peru nor knew for sure that there WERE copper mines there.</p>

<p>And where are we today? We're still best friends, but I went the technical route in my life, he became a lawyer and is now a well-known government mucky-muck in Washington DC.</p>

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<p>digmedia:
Your post truly made me LOL! What a great story.</p>

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<p>The kids I worry about more have problems in the opposite direction from OPs child. They are used to getting by via winging it in high schools that are too easy for them. When they get to college and the workload triples they lack the study and time-management skills to cope. One can only get so far by winging it.</p>

<p>I was more in this camp. and had a pretty tough time in my very tough college myself.</p>

<p>Long-term, I think its best, at least for one's mental health, to select a college where you reasonably expect to be in the upper half of the class, rather than the lower half. Even if that college is not quite so presitigious. That's my opinion.</p>

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<p>I would agree.
It can be a huge shock for many students who are attending their reach or very close match schools to find that they are not in the top 10% anymore, and are struggling to stay in the middle of the pack.
I would also disagree with an earlier post that text books are the same. They aren't the same, some are source material which is often better, and some textbooks need a great deal of supplemental material, and some are incomprehensible.
Some schools also have different requirements for majors. At my daughters school for instance a year of organic chemistry is required for a plain jane biology degree, at many other schools Ochem is just required for chem or premed majors. She likes it, but it depends on how much stress you want to have.</p>

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<p>I think the answer to this question really differs from kid to kid. And we, as parents, have to help our kids really assess what they want in a school and what their goals are. We also have to help kids realistically assess their strengths and weaknesses. </p>

<p>Oldest son is a music major. He wanted to attend a highly competitive music program because he knew that the competition would help him improve. He has always been a hard worker, never shys away from a challenge and will do whatever he has to in order to accomplish his goals, even if it means not doing the fun things. He has been very happy at his school and his playing has improved tremendously.</p>

<p>His younger brother is much more laid back and less intense. He did well in high school but did not have much in the way of ECs so very top schools were out. He wanted a school where he would have time to pursue his hobbies. On the tour of one school he asked about the availability of one of his favorite activities. The tour guide responded "Yeah, we have that, but who has time for that?" Son immediately took the school off his list. He is now a freshman at a school that he seems to be very happy at. He is working hard, but is not overwhelmed. He received merit aid which helps with 2 in college. I feel confident that he will receive and excellent education and not have any trouble getting into whatever grad school he chooses. </p>

<p>Ultimately, both boys were looking for different experiences because their interests and personalities are very different from each other. Both are very happy at their perspective schools. We are now starting the process with son #3. He, too, is different from his brothers. He has the stats to get into any school he wants. He is a hard worker, but he is highly social. As so many of the posters here have indicated, we will be looking for a school that fits his personality as well as his academic goals. My guess is he will not be applying to any of the ivys, but will apply to several other top 25 schools. Ultimately, however, he will apply to those schools because they will be a good fit for him, not because they are Top 25.</p>

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<p>Love some of these posts!</p>

<p>To go back to the original question, it seems there are some different issues: whether a student is intellectually capable of doing the work, whether the student is emotionally capable of doing the work, whether the student is emotionally capable of handling no longer being the top student, what kind of situation makes a student happy....</p>

<p>I think the operative cliche is not so much learning to "wing it" as to "roll with the punches." Some people will never learn to "wing it." But we all have to learn to roll with the punches, because that is what life is -- joyous moments to be sure, but then there will always be that punch. I would never recommend that a kid get into a situation that is unnecessary, brutal, and a lifelong trauma. But someone who is too brittle to survive a B or C rather than an A, or not being the best in every class is going to have a very rough go of it in life, let alone college. As a parent, I have tried to make this an ongoing discussion with one of my children (the other child has always been good at cutting herself some slack - hmmm...maybe too good?). I tried to engage my more driven son very early on with the issue of what does it mean to be "the best" at something, and to realize that it just doesn't even make sense to talk about who is "the best" musician, who is "the best" novelist, etc. Of course, we got to baseball and he told me I was wrong, because Barry Bonds is "the best" player who ever lived. Well, it looks as if Barry Bonds takes performance enhancing drugs --which is the ultimate extension of having to be the "the best."</p>

<p>So, I don't have the answers, except that it's an ongoing engagement and the choice of college is one great opportunity given to us to talk about such issues with them.</p>

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<p>Sac:</p>

<p>I agree with you completely. It's really about rolling with the punches. I've tried to tell my kids that the important thing is not to "be" the best, however that is defined, but to do the best they can, but not to overdo it. I am a believer in leaving well enough alone. I notice, though, that one of my kids can roll with the punches more easily than the other.</p>

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<p>I attended a children's party today where the kids had to come in the costume of someone famous, and discuss their character without disclosing the identity while the others guessed. At the end, the adult hostess wanted to hold a cheering contest to see which kids would be voted as having the best costume.....and prizes would be given out. From where I was standing, I quickly eyed the other mothers to get their reactions this this, which I thought was a bad idea. I don't like for my kids to compete openly. I could see some other moms frowning with me....many of us with kids in Quaker schools, where competition is a no-no. Someone jumped in and declared a 12-way tie. Phew! </p>

<p>In the spirit of "just do your best", how do all of you feel about competition?</p>

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<p>There is a book called "The Optimistic Child" in which the author talks about "innoculating" the child so that they can weather the inevitible challenging moments in life. Clearly some kids have this capacity on an innate basis, for others perhaps it can be fostered. But also, this is clearly a parenting issue for the "modern era." I think in the past kids were less "cultivated"- they just grew. Since they weren't in the "hot house", they just faced issues and took their licks more often than ours are likely to.</p>

<p>There was an article this week in the Asian Wall St. Journal which I missed, but friends have quoted, which had signficant statistics about depression on college campuses. I wonder if the numbers are really much higher now than they were 30 years ago when I arrived, or if we are more sensitive and more aware of it. If they are higher, is it because kids come in with such unrealistic expectations for themselves that they can't cope? Or are they completely burned out from HIGH SCHOOL that they are running on fumes? I am not sure.</p>

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<p>Momsdream:
We chose our S's public school because it was closest in spirit to the local Friends school; competition was discouraged in the school. In some ways, it was not always for best, as it could foster slacking among high-flyers. I actually said to my Ss when I felt that the assignment was not challenging enough, "It does not matter what the assignment is, do what you are capable of doing."
Roby:
I don't recall college being that stressful. Perhaps stress is what students (and parents) are paying for the greater importance of meritocracy. If you knew that college was a four-year detour on the way to inheriting dad's company or getting married, there was little reason to be stressed. But if you think that a college degree is your entree into a job--practically any job--, then the anxiety factor is bound to rise.</p>

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<p>Marite:
No one I knew in college (well 1 person) saw it as a stepping stone to marriage. Everyone expected to start their own company, not inherit their dad's.
Everyone was shellshocked in the beginning, save the very top 10%.
Very few people seemed to have killed themselves to get in- hard work, yes- but not of the apparent magnitude of kids today. </p>

<p>Everyone knew there was a job, a career, something special...waiting at the end. We all knew that our main goal was to get as much out of the 4 years as we could, and then all else would be fine...even in a pretty bad economy. But, that was then and this is now and there are clearly new and different issues in that regard. </p>

<p>So, I would guess it is both- the effort that goes in to getting in, the worry that without the same (and more effort) not enough will come as a result of the 4 years...</p>

<p>Ouch, sounds like a recipe for depression, no?</p>

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<p>Cheers: regarding your comments on creativity and "linear thinkers"----please, don't perpetuate that myth about engineers and mathematicians not being creative! While it's true that succeeding in HS math, physics, etc., requires logical clear thinking, not fiction writing, real-world technical areas are just as much arenas of creativity as are the humanities. Medicine--which is certainly not thought of as a creative field--benefits all the time, as just one example, from new surgical techniques and equipment. New safety equipment for cars--the anti-lock brake system and the airbag spring to mind--is being developed all the time, as another example.</p>

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<p>Roby:</p>

<p>I'm older than you! My roommate made no bone about being in college to find Mr. Right (and she did) while she changed major every year, and sometimes twice a year. At the time, it was still okay to joke about women getting a Mrs. degree in college. It was about ten years or so after the Mona Lisa Smile (set in Wellesley). When I was in grad school, a male student expressed shock that I would be trying to take away a job from a man who would be breadwinner for his family. Obviously, he did not think that I would!
Within a few years, though, the atmosphere had changed. Perhaps it was around the time when Yale went coed?</p>