<p>Sorry Dmd. It's too broad a subject to cover in a post, lol, but it has been MY personal experience, working all over the world. STRUCTURAL engineers and most accountants, in general, tend to be highly linear thinkers. It hasn't been a 'myth'. It's been my reality for more that 25 years. </p>
<p>Interesting observations to share--but please do not take offense. None intended.</p>
<p>I had hoped to make it clear that the proportional blends are infinite--referring to M's S2, a budding mathmetician with a gift for intuitive/creative understanding (it sounds like). Also, on that note, speaking of myths, fiction has a very rigorous linear component called plot. Not for the faint of heart, IMHO.</p>
<p>Agree with Robrym, the all-encompassing academic competition for precious spots in selective universities is many degrees hotter in most Asian countries and has been for decades. </p>
<p>Do you agree R? </p>
<p>As a consequence, there seems to be franker debate about the value of the effort versus the stress and cost. My impression, anyway.</p>
<p>Too bad there we can't gather more of the Asian parent perspective on CC. That would be a great conversation....</p>
<p>Agree with Robrym, the all-encompassing academic competition for precious spots in selective universities is many degrees hotter in most Asian countries and has been for decades. </p>
<p>Do you agree R? </p>
<p>As a consequence, there seems to be franker debate about the value of the effort versus the stress and cost. My impression, anyway.</p>
<p>Too bad we can't gather more of the Asian parent perspective on CC. That would be a great conversation....</p>
<p>I agree with a lot of what's been said here, but I also want to add that I've found that senior year is as profound a growing year as say, the year between age 2 and 3. In many ways mid to late adolesence is comparable to early childhood, and in the same way that your toddler went from knowing four words to knowing 40 in about a week, your senior will grow in ways that are not predictable. There are a lot of issues having to do with maturity, self-acceptance, etc. that get resolved (or dealt with ) senior year that help them cope with a heavy work load and all that entails in college.</p>
<p>Why do I bring this up? I agree with the OP that your daughter may not have the right personality to be in a school where she feels she has to struggle just to stay afloat. However-- I think it's personality, not intellect. Yes, there are brilliant kids at many universities. There are also workaloholics, kids who keep insane hours by abusing drugs,kids who sacrifice any semblance of a social life to keep things going academically. If your kid is in danger of becoming one of them, you're smart to start encouraging her to consider a wider range of schools.</p>
<p>However, she may surprise you. I've seen kids who would have freaked out at a B in high school cheerfully accept that the pool is bigger once they're out of their rinky dink town, and at colleges which accept exceptional kids from all over the world, it won't take long to find out that you're average (or below). There are kids functioning happily at top schools who have found their own work/fun balance. I have a kid at MIT who works insanely hard in tough courses and says that he's never been happier. His friends from high school think he's nuts.</p>
<p>So-- don't think you need to decide this week. You can be a good parent by making sure that the final list has a range of schools on it, and by doing your homework. However-- there are second tier schools where everyone is hell-bent on law school or med school that are just as competitive (or more so) as higher ranked places, and schools which attract a competitive, grade conscious student body, which could be more oppressive to your daughter than a higher ranked school where kids are more holistic in their interests. She could end up with a premed roommate freshman year where she feels she has to study all the time just to keep up... even if she doesn't need to for her own level of motivation. My Freshman year roommate had an outside scholarship which had a very high GPA requirement-- if she lost the scholarship, she'd have been out on the sidewalk, so she studied non-stop. I was the wing-it type so it didn't freak me out, but lots of people on our hall saw her lifestyle as as aspiration of sorts. So-- lots of variables.</p>
<p>Cheers: I am not sure if the AWSJ article was about Asian students perse, in fact I think not. I do think the approach of some Asian parents to college admissions is quite focused- both if their children are attending university in their home country or if they are going to the US...but it is mostly an intensified version of what goes on in the U.S... not something completely out there. They have a limited range of familiar schools, and they are concerned if their children attend schools that are not familiar to them, as they worry this will limit later opportunity. Of course, they focus on HYPMS and on the big Engineering schools as well..As well as on some of the larger schools in California in particular. If there is an advantage it is single mindedness. One reality of even middle class life in Asia is that people have a lot of household help. Kids don't do chores, aren't expected to pitch in financially etc..this makes a big difference when you need to spend extra time on academic tutoring, etc. Even very young children (elementary school) will spend hours and hours in various enrichment programs after school. </p>
<p>Blossom: I completely agree that the coping/adapting/dealing with challenge element of life is a feature of personality not related to intellect. HOpefully, as parents we take the time to really listen to our kids and their concerns as they look at schools- and try to keep them in a positive focus. My Son#1 has been telling Son#2 how much work, reading, writing he is doing at his rigorous LAC...and last week Son#2 began backing away from some of the schools on his own list as a result. While I think my husband and I are sensitive to the fact that Son#2 has the potential to burn out, we also know that he deals well with momentary sidesteps. We tried to frame what he had heard in terms of all of our understanding of the work ethic of Son #1(who has always felt entitled to his free time!!)...seems to have him on the right track! </p>
<p>R--My reference was Asian students who do NOT have the financial resources to go abroad--but rather, the talent to compete for places at their own top universities--and the trickle down effect of that level of hyper-competition.</p>
<p>As to lack of household chores and after-school jobs for children--it's more than the access to inexpensive housekeeping, don't you think? It's a deep cultural committment to higher education and an emphasis on community over individual.</p>
<p>Cheers,
Oh I see..yes the in-country competition is fierce. The Korean and Japanese kids at our school who will go home to study are in a perpetual state of worry over it, I know for sure.</p>
<p>As to the other, I think there is a deep committment to higher education and to family(and in some cultures to the community, but not in all to the same extent). Not only the children, but the mothers, are deeply involved in the educational process and all that means-- but I think in many families the time involved would not be feasible if the kids had to do other things to at home, for example. As an expat living in Asia I often get strange looks when I tell others that my kids clear the dinner table, wash dishes once per week, etc, but also if my child asks theirs for a play date ((why would a 9 year old play when she could be doing more Kumon math??))...</p>
<p>Momsdream asks, "In the spirit of 'doing your best,' how do you all feel about competition?"
I think about this all the time. I hated seeing normal learning activities turned into competitions when my children were young -- I remember one instance when the second-graders were asked to design new signposts for the school library. They designed little cards that said "Fiction," "Rocks and minerals," etc. to guide others to books on these topics. The kids were so excited to do this but then learned that only the "best" cards would be used in the library. I am a little embarrassed to say that I questioned this -- hey, I had more time on my hands then as well as a very crushed second-grader -- and a compromise was reached -- the kids' cards would be rotated. Looking back, I don't think I was doing my daughter any favors (I still think it was an unnecessary activity!) She in fact can roll with the punches pretty well. But to shield our kids from competition is wishful denial of the fact that our culture is totally steeped in this. Look at the climax of practically every feel-good American movie -- someone wins the dance contest, the big game, whatever.<br>
I also have disagreements with my husband about organized sports all the time. He thinks they teach kids, and especially girls, to focus, feel good about their bodies, learn teamwork, and learn to strive for their personal best. I say, yeah, in an idealized world. What sports are really about is WINNING -- always have been, always will.<br>
As a former straight-A student, it's also taken me a long time to realize how school must feel to those who constantly fail or get less than the best. What motivates them to keep going? And I definitely had lots of issues with not being the best later on. What else are grades if not competition?</p>
<p>I disagree with kiddielit about the importance of winning in sports or the meaning of grades.
In certain sports, winning is important (Go Sox!). But not all forms of physical activity are a competition. My older S did karate, for example, because he disliked team sports. My younger S enjoys hiking and bicycling, but like his older brother, he, too dislikes team sports. Physical activity can be an end in itself, or a means to good health, not trouncing an adversary.
As for grades, they can be normed or criterion referenced. In elementary and high schools, grades can often have different components, reflecting not only the end product of the assignment, but presentation, effort and even behavior. And some teachers grade students according to what they know they are capable of. In college, the importance of effort and attitude is much reduced.
Princeton, last year, announced that no more than 35% of students in a class should be receiving As. Shortly thereafter, my S's math teacher announced the grades for the finals in his class: "Since this is not Princeton, I don't feel any qualms about awarding As and A-s to half the class. You deserve it." Clearly, his grading had to do with quality of work per se, as opposed to ranking students in competition with one another.
Another observation: Life is not all about competition. Colleges are learning to train students for collaboration with colleagues because they know that the days of the lone scientist are over. So they encourage cooperation, team work and study groups. MIT positively encourages teamwork. My S's friends at MIT are in study groups, so is my S for his college classes.</p>
<p>Momsdream, I had a similar experience--a previous synagogue I belonged to wanted to hand out prizes for the best costumes for some Jewish Holiday. I put my foot down on that one, and we had a parade instead and every kid got a little girft. When D was even younger than in that episode, we went to apply to a school for her--seems they had a competition regarding when your lst tooth would fall out. I knew she'd come in last that one and that seemed a particularly terrible way to start a new school, so we knew right away that school wasn't going to be a match. I tend to always be against competition but it's obviously unavoidable sometimes. And D was very very lucky to have a wonderful softball coach who honestly didn't seem to care whether the team won or lost, as long as they played their best and the refereeing was fair.</p>
<p>I came late to this thoughtful and interesting thread, and wanted to address a few thoughts of my own to the OP:</p>
<p>The first is that stress isnt always bad. In my own academic career a zillion years ago, the courses that meant the most to me were the real killersthe ones with demanding, thought-provoking teachers and huge workloads and fellow students who seemed impossibly brilliant. Yes, there were moments when I was stressed out and sure I was going to fail, but for much of the time the work was thrilling. Those courses literally changed my life. (One of them was very much like the course the Yale mom described on the old CC site, and while her daughter had a tough adjustment at first, Id love to find out what she thinks a year from now.) </p>
<p>Second, the college experience is so intense in so many ways that working hard doesnt preclude having a good time. As above, sometimes the work itself is fun. In addition, kids often study together (whether in formal study groups or going to the library or the lab together to work on individual projects), and also take breaks together. It isnt all grim by any meansand they also find time for outside activities, though I cant guarantee that they get enough sleep.</p>
<p>Third, your daughters study and time management skills are much more of an asset than a track record of winging it. Many kids who get by on BS in high schoolwhere they may impress the teachers by being better read or more articulate than their peersrun into trouble in college, where the other kids are likely to be as smart as they are and to have done the work. And though it may sometimes seem otherwise, I believe that more people get into elite colleges through hard work than through effortless brilliance. (Anecdotal evidence abounds on both sides, of course: While I have occasionally heard of plodders struggling to adjust to the faster pace of college, I also had a cousin with a genius IQ who breezed effortlessly through high school and went to an Ivy at age 16--and then flunked out.)</p>
<p>Finally, having made it to one childs freshman year of college, I agree with the posters who urge you to trust the process. If your daughter is admitted to a school where she truly wants to go, chances are she will thrive there. Of course, its helpful for her to find out as much as she can about the school beforehand; if practical, an overnight visit can be a particularly good way for her to see if she feels it would be a good fit for her.</p>
<p>A little off topice, but re: the competition thing--I like competition, to a degree. But at my daughter's middle school, the orchestra director lets the kids challenge each other for the next seat as often as they want to, (up to once a week), and I find it a bit much. Anyway, my daughter has been challenged twice already by the girl sitting next to her, and won the challenge both times. The second time, the challenger burst into tears after losing. Now she challenged my D again, and the orchestra director told them that a certain piece would be the criterion, and she burst into tears again, because it is a piece she is not very good at. It is a very uncomfortable position for my D to be in. And she isn't first chair, even, she is first chair of the second violins. Apparently this other girl just cannot handle being a second violin, and it is stressing her out. I do not care for this scenario at all. My D is in 6th grade. (If any of you are wondering if this other girl is Asian, she is. I couldn't help but ask!)</p>
<p>Talk about playing second fiddle! I wonder if the challenger is under parental pressure. Maybe what she cannot handle is the parental disappointment when she cannot live up to their expectations of excellence.</p>
<p>My favorite aunt was a concert violinist (named a child prodigy on violin) who used to solo in the WC Handy Young People's Concerts in NY. I just love looking through the family photo albums and seeing her in those white gowns, holding her violin (the old black and whites are very dramatic!) When my D was born, she was named after my aunt. My aunt died sudddenly (breast cancer), shortly after my D's birth.....leaving everything to my D, including a college trust (she had no children of her own). She also left her violins. I've always thought that I would encourage my D to take up violin, in honor of my aunt. After reading countless stories of such competition on violin (across several websites), I'm seriously rethinking. Why is it that violin seems to be so fiercely competitive?</p>
<p>Marite wrote: "Talk about playing second fiddle!" This made me laugh! Then I realized as funny as that is, the situation MsTee describes I find disturbing and feel badly for your daughter. I am fine with competition in general and with recognition. But I think the way they have it set up in that orchestra to constantly be competing and challenging each other for spots is NOT a healthy scenario. I think each child should be encouraged to work hard and improve and if the director wishes, he/she can have evaluative reviews a couple times per year and change any "seatings" for that marking period as it is in flux and if you work hard, it is possible to "move up" or change around be it year to year (as in most schools) or at periodic evaluations at checkpoints during the year. I don't like the idea of "competing" or "challenging" each other for spots ongoing in the way MsTee described it. So hugs to your D. </p>
<p>Momsdream, that is a touching story. If your D is interested in violin, I say go ahead. </p>
<p>Momsdream, I bet those violins she inherited are really nice ones. It would be so cool if your D could play them one day!! </p>
<p>Marite-- I was also thinking there had to be parental pressure for her to be so anxiety ridden about not moving up in the ranks. So far my D doesn't seem to be to affected much by this behaviour, but I am really uncomfortable about this going on possibly for the rest of the year. I may just encourage my daughter to challenge those "ahead" of her, just to try to get a couple of seats away from this girl so she doesn't have to deal with her every week. I find it odd that she (the other girl) is so stressed about this, because this is just a fairly ordinary middle school orchestra--the director does a good job, and it is good for what it is-- but it is not a select orchestra or anything out of the ordinary. This is in an average over crowded California middle school--not one of those competitive schools, full of super achievers. There is really nothing high stakes here, in my mind. But I guess, you can get into these unhealthy competitive scenarios at any level.</p>
<p>D also has taken up playing baritone in the 6th grade band. No competition there thank goodness!--she is the only one playing that instrument.</p>
<p>I so agree with Soozie. If it were me, I would probably evaluate the whole orchestra twice a year, and leave it at that. I don't think the challenging continually is a good idea. My second oldest S (violin player) went through it, and he hated it. My older D (viola) also found it irritating to be challenged all the time.</p>
<p>Mstee, I would not like the situation for any kids. It really divides the orchestra and strains relationships. I think that the best way to do this is to have an evaluation at set times during the year and the director then reseats. That way it is not such a personal thing as a challenge. That is how my kids' orchestras have always worked. Also the seats beyond the first so many are not numbered and rotated periodically so someone is not sitting in the back seat all of the time. The orchestra should be a learning experience at that stage in a high school and not a source of stress. I would mention it to the director, if it is something you feel you can bring up without making it a big issue. Surely, it is not pleasant for him to be constantly refereeing this challenges and having to deal with the ensuing scene.</p>