<p>My D2 is on the midst of applying to dual degree programs, engineering and music performance. She doesn’t see one as a backup for the other, but rather two passions that use her talents in different but complementary ways. She has a very challenging academic load this year (7 APs) and thrives on it, going in early just today to lead a science demo by request of last year’s AP Chem teacher. If she’s stressed about school, interestingly she finds balance by throwing herself into her music. She will never cancel a two hour lesson after school because she has too much homework as she knows the lesson actually reenergizes her. She comes home all charged up and then studies until the wee hours if need be. Nearly all of her ECs revolve around music - from city youth orchestra, to several chamber groups, to subbing for community professional orchestras.
She knows there may come a day when she has to, or wants to, choose between her passions. But right now she wants to delay that as long as possible, and potentially forever. She has made choices already, when she dropped swim team and hunter/jumper competitions to focus on music, and when she had to choose between instruments in high school because her schedule wouldn’t accomodate band and orchestra (she still studies the second instrument privately).
When we visited schools she talked to the music faculty and the engineering faculty whenever possible about their support for dual degrees, and found a wide variety that changed her opinion of a few places. She also talked to them about options if she ended up dropping to a minor in music. (Most had fewer lesson and ensemble options for minors.)
Bottom line, she really wants to go dual degree and we support her giving it a go. If she figures out that one passion is stronger than the other, that’s ok too.</p>
<p>There is a difference between double degrees and double majors. My S is currently at Yale and is a double major–music and computer science. Our son was much like yours, PianoParent, in that he had a total passion for both areas. He too had to choose between conservatories and universities and in the end chose Yale as it presented a fantastic music performance environment as well as the opportunity to pursue his other interest. He has been able to achieve success in both areas at Yale, and hopes to continue living the dream of doing both forever. He was fortunate to be able to study with a Yale School of Music professor. However, I think he will tell you that the amount of coursework and homework required to achieve both majors did affect the amount of time he has had to practice–it’s not an easy road–but he still has had amazing performance opportunities and has grown as a musician. Also, he is now applying to graduate school in music performance.</p>
<p>Spirit Manager, Bard “requires” that conservatory students do a double degree with a subject outside of music. So I was wondering if there was a “requirement” to do a double degree, for any other major. I think this can be great for some, and can be a plus for attending Bard, just wondering.</p>
<p>I cannot imagine how anyone does a double major in music and computer science plus Yale’s distribution requirements! Congratulations Clarimom.</p>
<p>The Peabody link that I posted above explains the different degree options in a pretty clear way, with examples of hypothetical students for each option. (Momof2TeenGirls’ son would make a good illustration of a perfect double degree student).</p>
<p>This is a small point, but it’s not really correct to group UofM’s math program with Lawrence or Oberlin, when it more properly belongs in the group with HPM, just a bit below them, but pretty comparable. Can’t say about physics, but my guess would be that’s similar.</p>
<p>^I’d be inclined to agree, but have an inherent UMich bias :)</p>
<p>Re
</p>
<p>This is totally true. Even my son, who was in the SOM, had a grad student when taking a voice studio. The voice studio was unrelated to his specific music degree and for him was not even a “second instrument” per se (as he had several other, more proficient, second instruments) so it made sense and was still a great experience. (He was in the equivalent of music tech & comp.)</p>
<p>But what I wanted to comment about was the dual degree concept as it relates to Michigan and the SOM. I’d be inclined to agree that your own two masters in ENG might have made more sense as a single phd, so I see your point.</p>
<p>But I think the intense pursuit of performance level piano is so completely different in curriculae than math/physics, this is one case where pursuing dual degrees is more fitting. One option to maximize exploration and minimize a premature decision would be to apply as a dual degree student, proceed as a dual degree student, then determine whether to continue or abandon, which is an option available up to the end of sophomore year at Michigan if one has been accepted to both programs. </p>
<p>That’s pretty much what my son ended up doing, because by the end of his sophomore year he found his SOM program to be the perfect fit and in his case, the second, non-SOM degree redundant. However, in his case, there truly was redundancy, and a better second degree for him might have been CS or ENG, had he been so inclined. Which I might add, given the workload, he wasn’t :)</p>
<p>Kmcmom always gives great advice. </p>
<p>At Harvard, following her advice might mean applying to both NEC and Harvard. If later unhappy with the double degree BA/MM program, students can leave the NEC portion and just do Harvard, if they like. </p>
<p>Alternatively, students can enter Harvard and later apply to the double degree program: you don’t have to enter as a freshman. If the option of doing music independently, alongside the Harvard offerings, doesn’t seem to be working out, then the student can then apply to the double degree program with NEC with full commitment. </p>
<p>Ditto for the Tufts program, for the BS/BM in that case. I don’t know how it works at Oberlin or Lawrence or other schools, but assume the same is true. At Bard, if a student is doing a double degree, I assume he or she could leave the conservatory, but would not be able to drop the second major if staying in the conservatory.</p>
<p>From what I hear, students do well with the double degree but also do well working independently with a private teacher, outside of a program, with members of both groups landing at good conservatories for grad school.</p>
<p>“The kids she knew who went to conservatory in general were overjoyed at how little coursework they were required to take outside of performance classes.”</p>
<p>My son has friends who extoll how it’s just like going to summer music camp. My son needs more, at least at this time.</p>
<p>"… he would be giving up a lot to go do that at Oberlin or Lawrence or UofM instead."</p>
<p>UofM’s math department invited him to apply to their honors program. It would not be a step down. That’s what started my thread. I was thinking that with their SOM, he could get the best of both worlds. Then I started looking at the details. He should be able to get through the performance audition, but he really doesn’t want to commit to 5 years for two undergraduate degrees. It may be likely that in two years he will want to focus mostly on math. I’m sure you could drop out of the dual degree program, but I’m trying to evaluate the pros and cons of other colleges. Colleges with a SOM seem to be an all or nothing choice, and my feeling is that they don’t really like students with split allegiances, and music minors don’t get the good opportunities and teachers. There might be more opportunities and a better choice of teachers at non-SOM schools.</p>
<p>“I think times have changed somewhat.”</p>
<p>Yes. I’m hearing that to even get into a PhD graduate program (after your undergraduate degree), you have to be published and perhaps even bring some research money along with you. One person was telling me about his son who is taking a gap year after his undergraduate degree to work in a lab to build up his resume and connections. Then, of course, there is your post-doc work (at relatively slave wages) before you can begin to apply for tenure track positions that are fought for by other extraordinarily smart people. The career opportunities in music or science might be razor thin depending on how you define them. My son’s piano teacher is a tenured professor of music, but not at a top school for music. He teaches and concertizes around the world. You probably never heard of him. He has security and flexibility and loves what he is doing.</p>
<p>Actually, I could make a big argument for becoming a high school math or science teacher. They are in demand and you can start building seniority and pay steps as soon as you get your undergraduate degree. If you get your master’s degree at night, you could get to the top pay step by your late twenties. I can’t say the same thing about high school music teachers however.</p>
<p>It’s hard to know what’s best when the destination is unknown. One could just claim that the analysis is useless, but no analysis is not good either. Being an engineer, I tend towards the over-analysis direction.</p>
<p>Momof2TeenGirls says:</p>
<p>“But right now she wants to delay that as long as possible, and potentially forever.”</p>
<p>This sounds just like my son. Clearly, it’s easier to keep music at a high level if your are at a high level in an engineering/science career. It’s not so clear the other way around. My brother-in-law (Phd in chemistry) and I were trying to figure out how to make that work. It seems like you would have to do it yourself - create a product or offer a service.</p>
<p>As for dual degree programs, I find it interesting that Tufts/NEC leads to dual undergraduate degrees, but Harvard/NEC leads to a master’s degree from NEC. Rather than a dual undergraduate degree, my son would prefer to keep his music going with a regular degree program (and a minor in music), but then offer the opportunity to move on to a conservatory for graduate work after four years. It’s interesting to see that the NEC portion of the Harvard/NEC program is mostly lessons and chamber work for the first two/three years. That’s what my son does now in high school; academics, solo work and chamber work. He is leaning towards finding some college situation where he can get a very good private lesson teacher, but still minor in music.</p>
<p>Clarimom says:</p>
<p>"…in the end chose Yale as it presented a fantastic music performance environment as well as the opportunity to pursue his other interest."</p>
<p>My son told me yesterday that he has this premonition about ending up at Yale (in a good way). I told him that he would have to hand in his science/critical thinking union card.</p>
<p>“My S is currently at Yale and is a double major–music and computer science.”</p>
<p>Is this 4 or 5 years, and is it different than having a major and a minor? There are so many details like this!! With the low probability schools my son feel like he has to apply to 10 of them. It’s difficult to evaluate all of the details. Our first goal is to throw a lot of resumes up on the wall to see what sticks. Then, we can try to sort out all of these dirty (or nice) details. Many people love (!) Brown University, but we take it for granted. I told him that he will need to see the exact program he will be in, the exact courses he would take, and what exact music and science opportunities he has.</p>
<p>“Also, he is now applying to graduate school in music performance.”</p>
<p>What will happen to computer science? But I can see this happening to my son. He loves math, but there is something about music. One Friday afternoon, he came home from school and wrote a 3 page poem about Mahler’s 7th while listening to it. He tells some people that he wants to be a conductor.</p>
<p>"…then determine whether to continue or abandon, which is an option available up to the end of sophomore year at Michigan if one has been accepted to both programs."</p>
<p>It’s nice to know that they have a specific process for this because the alternative might be the need to go an extra semester to get the one degree. This is one more of those important details.</p>
<p>However, my son has not been focusing on the full audition repertoire, just the regular music supplements. Now what was the last Chopin etude you played? And do you remember the third movement of Beethoven’s Op. 10, No. 3?</p>
<p>By the way, I loved Ann Arbor while I was a student at Michigan. You can meet people and have a life outside of the college. I also got to see Horowitz play in Hill Auditorium with the Philadelphia Orchestra.</p>
<p>It sounds like you want the music degree a lot more than he does. Not sure that’s a good situation.</p>
<p>^I don’t know. Kids who say things like “I want to be a conductor” usually want music degrees too, so I’m not convinced PP is projecting ;)</p>
<p>PP, Ann Arbor is, as you know, a great place for having a life and for having a rich musical/performance/artistic existence, as well as a scientifically stimulating environment.</p>
<p>If your son is being invited to honors math, I suspect there may be scholarship in store that might more than make up for the extra year were he to dual degree. If he really DOES want to consider conducting…he would at least have that option available to him at UMich or other large SOMs. That’s something to throw into the analysis ;)</p>
<p>I would have him apply now and prep for auditions to be on the safe side – the deadline is Dec. 1 but usually the auditions aren’t until Jan-Feb. He could always cancel. That way if at the 11th hour he decides Michigan Math is irresistible due to a strong offer, (or that Harvard is irresistible…) he’d know that he’d initially still be able to pursue music via the SOM or NEC etc.</p>
<p>This would buy a lot of time to decide.</p>
<p>I do think a kid who might want to conduct is likely to enjoy the breadth of offerings at a larger SOM or a university with a multitude of opportunities and ensembles – and perhaps enjoy the peers who would also be at his level.</p>
<p>PianoParent, to clarify, it is a 4-year program at Yale. There are no minors at Yale–so this is two majors. My son does not see going to grad school for music as career-ending for computer science–he feels can always do programming and the things he likes to do at the computer along with a performance career. In his dream career world, he would like to be able to still pursue both passions, and I truly feel this could be a real possibility since thus far he has always managed to keep both in his life. We always told him to dream big. :)</p>
<p>Harping back to a post by Compmom about the details at Bard Conservatory. She is correct - if a student in the conservatory wants to drop the 2nd degree - they need to leave the conservatory and jnstead get a BA in Music in the college. Unfortunately, in that case, they would lose any conservatory scholarships. Although there might be some College scholarships available. This did happen to a friend of my son’s, who then commenced the master’s program in conducting simultaneously to finishing his 4.5th year at Bard, as he needed an extra semester to fulfill all the courses necessary for the single BA which was now a major in music rather than a different subject (as opposed to the original BA and BM).</p>
<p>Just want to say that at the age of PianoParent’s son (perhaps with the wisdom of hindsight) a little constructive uncertainty can be a very good thing. This sounds like a young man who can benefit from some exploration, cross-pollination of interests and so on. Zigs and zags, not straight lines. I think the family is right in keeping options open, and to investigate details, but at some point, he just has to point north, south, east or west, so to speak, and let the journey flow. It seems very likely to work out really well.</p>
<p>I am finding this discussion very interesting and helpful. Thanks to everyone for sharing alternative views and options in such a supportive way.
Pianoparent - will your son have much AP credit? That may help keep the timeline down for dual degrees at colleges that are liberal with accepting APs. My D also has Mich on her list and they seem pretty good with AP. The professor there that my D took a lesson from was probably the most supportive of all that she has spoken to. He has had several kids successfully go through the double major program in 4.5 to 5 years, including one he mentioned that majored in music performance and aerospace engineering, with a minor in Japanese! (He did say the kid didn’t sleep much!)</p>
<p>Many years ago, I did a dual degree (performance/chemistry) at a conservatory that was part of a university. It took 4.5 years including 3 summers to satisfy all of the distribution requirements. I was exhausted at the end but I was glad I did it, however the science suffered more. I agree that you need to find a school that only has a few distribution requirements so you can more easily ‘double major’. For example, Vassar has extremely strong music for an LAC, few distribution requirements and you can double major there. The musical level is high and we know Vassar students who have gone on to conservatories for grad school. We were also very impressed with the music groups at Yale Wesleyan, Bard, Hamilton (yes) and Williams among others - you really need to visit and listen to rehearsals to know. A school that will encourage a double major and more importantly not exclude a double major really will provide the exploration setting that compmom is referring to.</p>
<p>Interesting that the double major took 4.5-5 years, the same timeline for a double degree these days.</p>
<p>Compmom - apologies, the UM figure was for double degree. For the specific example, Aerospace engineering was a BS and the music performance was a BM. Engineering typically has very limited humanities and electives (little overlap with music degree) and one of the highest number of credits required. We have not seen many places where a BS in engr. and a BM is doable in less than 5 years, even with AP credit. A BS/BM outside of engr might be a little easier logistically, though I’d expect anything with labs (like chemistry as chemusic did) or higher credit requirements to still be tough. A BA/BM dual degree or a BA/BA double major might be a little easier if there’s more overlap in requirements or fewer total credits required. We had to rule out a few schools because they allowed a dual degree, but specifically excluded a BS in engineering as the second degree in combination with music performance.</p>