Music minor and dual degrees issues

College Majors Music Major
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<p>My pianist son is at a level to get into a music conservatory, but he is also a top student in math and physics. Our view is that one can keep both doors open (at a top level) only by going to a liberal arts college that has a good music program. Another option is to apply to combined 5-year programs like Harvard/NEC or Tufts/NEC. Interestingly, the former leads to a master's degree in music and the latter leads to a dual undergraduate degree. Michigan's dual degree takes 5 years and gives you only an undergraduate degree. My son doesn't want to spend ($ too) five years in college to get an undergraduate degree. There are many examples of people who have gotten undergraduate degrees (in physics, say) and then have been admitted to graduate school at a conservatory.</p>

<p>If, however, students minor in music at a college, will they be treated as second class students when it comes to selection of private teachers or studios? Will they get fewer performance opportunities? I assume this can vary widely between colleges. My view is that the key is to get the best private lesson teacher, but I don't know if this just can't happen for music minors. Michigan says that they do not have a performance minor. Can a future music minor have a sample lesson with a music professor in the hopes of finding a good studio, especially if the minor is non-performance? Another possibility is to find a private lesson teacher who is independent of the school.</p>

<p>My son applied EA to MIT and they have an Emerson scholarship program for private lessons. They set you up with a good teacher. It sounds like they support musicians even though they are not necessarily music majors. They seem to have a really good music program, especially for chamber music. Harvard seems to use their NEC connection to not try very hard at their end. Few get into that program, but it's not clear that committing to that path as a freshman is better than the flexibility of first getting an undergraduate degree and then deciding to go to a music conservatory for graduate school. Most likely, my son will figure out which way to go after a couple of years. At that point, he won't want to necessarily be committed to a 5 year plan. So many people tell him that music is a bad career (it's really annoying), but it might turn out to be best for him.</p>

<p>I'm looking for things to watch out for and advice about staying at a high musical level while getting a non-music undergraduate degree.</p>

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<p>You might like this essay from the Peabody admissions site:
[Double</a> Degrees | Peabody Conservatory](<a href=“http://www.peabody.jhu.edu/conservatory/admissions/tips/doubledegree.html]Double”>http://www.peabody.jhu.edu/conservatory/admissions/tips/doubledegree.html)</p>

<p>The double degree route is always 5 years, it seems, or, at least, there are few exceptions. It is also arduous in some places, if only due to transportation issues and time. Harvard is closer to NEC than Tufts. Both programs are good. Students can easily withdraw from the Harvard/NEC dual degree program and can also apply later, after a year or two, if they don’t want to commit at first.</p>

<p>We really loved Oberlin and there are people here who have sons or daughters in the Bard double degree program, or Lawrence, others…They can chime in :)</p>

<p>My daughter is almost done at Harvard and is glad she did not do the double degree. She is a composer, and did major in music, and has been really happy with the place. However, many of her most talented musician friends did not major in music or did a double major (different from a double degree, better than a minor perhaps). I would also point out to you that in recent years Harvard has increased focus on “applied” arts, including more performance emphasis in some classes, and credit for playing in ensembles etc. She has found the talent level surprising, very high…(She helped found an undergrad composers’ collective, and they work with undergrad pianists, which is fun for all.)</p>

<p>Many of her most talented friends do have private teachers outside of school. Look into funding for this, at some schools. Whether they majored in music or not. </p>

<p>Doing things privately versus through a double degree program was more affordable, and, as you said, preserves some freedom of choice for kids who may change quite a bit in these years.</p>

<p>One tip: check distribution requirements and number of courses in the major to see how much room there is for double majors. Harvard has 8 gen ed classes required, and a music major has 50% classes in music. Many other schools may have more gen eds and fewer music classes in the music major. These details can make a difference. (Yale has more distribution requirements, for instance, or used to.)</p>

<p>I know a young man at Tufts who is doing science and music. He is considering the double degree program but so far is happy with what he is doing. I believe he got involved in research very quickly. We love the Tufts music department too.</p>

<p>MIT would be a great choice. Lots going on there musically. NEC, Berklee and BoCo are right over the bridge! Is your son interested in technology and music at all? Harvard has HUSEAC and MIT of course has great options in that area, including some that meld engineering and music.</p>

<p>You already sound like you guys know what you are doing, frankly. You are right in the options that you have set out, and there are pros and cons to all. I would say either a double major or doing piano independently w/major in science would be good ways to go, if the double degree does not appeal. Just from your post, I have a feeling your son is on a good track and will make good decisions, with you along for the ride.</p>

<p>Feel free to PM me!</p>

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<p>Hello, and welcome. </p>

<p>In the case of this:

  • I understand, but do remember that your son would be getting TWO degrees for 125% of the cost of ONE degree. When you dual degree at Michigan, you really DUAL DEGREE at Michigan. If he’d like to achieve a high level of proficiency in both of his disciplines and can handle the work load, this is a very sensible and desirable path, IMHO, and offers numerous benefits including access to top studios.</p>

<p>I can’t speak to other schools, but honestly, at Michigan, where like most conservatory-style SOMs, there isn’t a performance minor at the school of music (there is a music minor in LSA that is academic, eg. part of BA study as opposed to BM or BFA) it is entirely reasonable to assume that the maximum studio access to the most accomplished/sought-after teachers is reserved primarily for the BM students, first in the specific principal instrument discipline, then to the second instrument of performance majors, next to non-performance majors in the school of music, and then lastly, as available ad hoc to the rest of the school population.</p>

<p>I’d be surprised if logistically speaking other SOMs could manage to do it much differently, given the need to cater to performance majors.</p>

<p>To have it otherwise would be to shortchange the students at the school of music.</p>

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<p>Also note that there is usually substantial financial support for double degree students. It’s rare to be paying anywhere near full fare for that fifth year. The disadvantage I see to the five year BA/MM is that it shortchanges the BA which is reduced to allow for the MM to kick in early. Also, you’re stuck with the choice of grad school rather than being able to pick anywhere you want to go after your BA/BM. Is there anything useful about the two degrees? In terms of careers, who knows? In terms of the development of the student and their ability to delve intensely into separate academic and creative worlds - it’s invaluable. Truthfully I think my son should have gotten 3 degrees! And now he’s considering a grad school where he’ll be able to continue with his academic studies, in addition to his musical ones which I think is a terrific option for him. I was very sad to think he would no longer have a chance to explore those academic areas again except on his own.</p>

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<p>There have been many threads and there is a lot of information out there about the value of a music degree, the flexibility of options for career in and out of the music field, the respect employers and grad schools have for the discipline and hard work, and so on. I have frequently written on this forum about a statistic I read several years ago, about how as a group music majors have the highest accept rate at medical school compared to any other major (66% at the time).</p>

<p>However, as the Peabody essay says, a student like your son who has genuine and strong interest in something else, such as physics and math, has more complicated decision-making ahead of him. Probably for several years. There are, of course, scientists, analysts, MD’s and others who play regionally and enjoy music, whether they majored in it or not.</p>

<p>I think you and your son are smart in preserving all options as long as you possibly can. Those of us who have been here for awhile have seen a lot of changes happen for our kids, some quite unexpected. Committing to a path early, as so many feel pressured to do, can really interfere with development I think. This is why, to me, your post already reflects some wisdom!</p>

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<p>“Many of her most talented friends do have private teachers outside of school.”</p>

<p>How do they find the private teachers? Are they independent or are some (say at NEC) willing to teach others?</p>

<p>“Is your son interested in technology and music at all?”</p>

<p>No. more like theoretical physics or pure math. He also wants to do more composing, and MIT has Harbison.</p>

<p>“You already sound like you guys know what you are doing…”</p>

<p>I don’t feel that way because I keep running into surprising details. </p>

<p>We liked Yale and met with Melvin Chen about their program. He went from Yale (physics) to Juilliard (piano and violin) to Harvard (chemistry). He was then at Bard and now is at Yale. Growing up in CT makes one take Yale for granted - especially because of New Haven - but our son really liked it after our visit. We went to Oberlin, but he didn’t like the fact that if you go 5 blocks in any direction, you run into farms. He is attracted more by Boston. Most of his music friends from around the country want to go to Boston. And of course, NEC and Symphony Hall are right there.</p>

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<p>“but do remember that your son would be getting TWO degrees for 125% of the cost of ONE degree”</p>

<p>I have two (separate) masters degrees in engineering from Michigan. I now consider it a mistake. I should have skipped one and continued on to the PhD level. One can always take extra classes or learn material on the side. That’s just my opinion about dual degrees. Also, there are cases where people have gone from a science undergrad degree to a music conservatory for grad school. </p>

<p>“I’d be surprised if logistically speaking other SOMs could manage to do it much differently, given the need to cater to performance majors”</p>

<p>I just heard back that music minors at Michigan only get graduate students for teachers. They left open the possibility for having a professor, but it didn’t sound likely. I think what you said dawned on my in the last couple of days - that colleges with SOM can’t cater to music minors, especially for performance.</p>

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<p>You might also look into Princeton. Physics and math are strong and their music program, like Yale College, has many top players pursuing other paths. The composition department, although geared towards grad students, would be of interest, as well. (My son’s at Bard Conservatory, btw. 5th year.)</p>

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<p>For info on how Harvard students find teachers for private lessons, scroll down on this site:</p>

<p>[Harvard</a> Department of Music](<a href=“http://www.music.fas.harvard.edu/performance.html#courses]Harvard”>http://www.music.fas.harvard.edu/performance.html#courses)</p>

<p>To be honest, my daughter got an offer for lessons at NEC because she applied there as well (necessary if you are considering the double degree) and met with the chair of the dept. at NEC while she was deciding between Harvard and NEC. Berklee, Boston Conservatory, NEC, Longy, and all the various colleges, including Harvard, are great resources in Boston, and I am sure other cities offer similar ones. </p>

<p>Would his current teacher be able to connect him with someone local?</p>

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<p>I have joked that life would be easier if he was not quite so good in math/physics or music. I’ve told him that he really can’t decide yet. He is at two vastly different levels for each. Even though he got to AP caluculus as a junior, he is very far from knowing what it’s like at the top of that field. It’s all fun and easy right now. In music, however, he can see the top. He has been getting private lessons since he was 6 and competing since he was 7.</p>

<p>The first words out of friends and relatives, however, is that he should go for math/scinece and that he could always do music on the side. I find this quite annoying. Having worked in the engineering and software development field for 35+ years, I can provide many reasons why money isn’t everything when you have little to no free time or control. There is also the issue of ending up in a dead-end technology area and laid off at 50. I could argue that being in music forces you to take more control over your career and how you develop and market yourself. His private lesson teacher is a tenured music professor. He told my son that his “research” is practicing and performing. He is a product that he can develop. He is not competing for a limited pot of money at NIH or ONR.</p>

<p>However, my son knows that he can’t keep putting off the decision indefinitely. Competition will force him to pick one path or the other. I’m just trying to help him keep going at the top level for a few more years.</p>

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<p>“You might also look into Princeton. Physics and math are strong and their music program,…”</p>

<p>We visited Princeton-physics long ago when my son was into string theory and then found out that the author talked about how the department held a recital every year.</p>

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<p>Many Princeton students continue to take private music lessons in NYC. As do Yale College students I’ve known, one in particular on piano. If the math/physics department at Bard were at the level of MIT I’d recommend it - the piano faculty in the conservatory are outstanding. Unfortunately those departments aren’t there quite yet :)</p>

<p>My son did consider MIT for its music department - composition in particular, but he wasn’t interested in all the science distribution requirements. He’s hoping, btw. to continue taking math courses at the grad level, despite not majoring for either degree in the subject!</p>

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<p>“Many Princeton students continue to take private music lessons in NYC.”</p>

<p>Now that you mention that, I remember someone telling us that taking the train to NYC was common and didn’t take too long.</p>

<p>We were considering Bard because of Melvin Chen, but happily, he is now at Yale.</p>

<p>Then again, all of these top schools make even the best students feel inadequate. He will throw a lot of applications up on the wall and see which ones stick. When we were at Yale (after they won in hockey), I was thinking that his chances would be better if he had started skating when he was 6. All he is now is a common good student who is also a good musician.</p>

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<p>Just for the sake of other people reading this - it is a very rare and highly qualified student musician who gets to take lessons in the Yale School of Music from the professors there while attending Yale College as an undergrad. Most lessons are from the grad students.</p>

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<p>Being a serious music performance undergrad at Yale:
The PRO’s - there are other serious music performer undergrads around to play with. This is important if you want to play chamber music or orchestral music (so not clear how much this matters to your son). Also, the music scene is very lively - plenty of composers (both student and faculty), fabulous graduate students, chamber groups, great theory and composition classes. Also, performance opportunities for undergrads are completely not dependant on undergrad major (as there is no undergrad performance major).</p>

<p>The CON’s - competition is intense. In particular, competition for attention from Professors at School of Music is … shall we say … almost impossible – depending on instrument. You might want to ask Prof Chen how many undergrads at Yale have piano lessons with him. (I honestly have no idea, but the answer is meaningful to you).</p>

<p>Dual degree programs --the pro’s are obvious. The non-obvious con in general is that you are competing with kids in the same program who are not dual degree. If you want to get into the best studio, have the best performance opps, etc; it’s tough to compete with kids who have twice the practice time available. Also, some studio teachers are more lip-service than truly on-board with taking dual degree students.</p>

<p>It is hard for a high-school senior who has talent, interest and opportunity in both music and in other academic fields to predict accurately how far their interest and ability will take them. On the other hand, keeping options open has some opportunity costs. ‘Know thyself’ would seem to be the way to go, but pretty hard to implement. </p>

<p>Yale’s particular constellation (no undergrad performance major or studios, but lively scene and tantalizing possibility of grad studio teacher) is unique. That said, it sounds like he could be very happy musically at many places. Hopefully he will have some great choices come April.</p>

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<p>Re the con about double degree programs - that doesn’t hold true at a place like Bard, and I’m guessing Lawrence and Oberlin which all encourage and fully support double degree students. I know for a fact this isn’t true at Bard as all the students in the conservatory are required to pursue a second degree in the college. Many of the musicians who teach in the conservatory have also pursued other degrees themselves - such as Jeremy Denk, Jeffrey Kahane, and previously Melvin Chen (all pianists!) and the head of the conservatory, Robert Martin. They choose to teach the students at Bard Conservatory specifically because they’re interested in the idea of students also pursuing a a second academic degree.</p>

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<p>“competition is intense”</p>

<p>Competition for what, exactly? Getting the “name” instructor is not quite so critical as competition for performance opportunities. My son has dealt with competition and will have to continue to do so if he is realistic about a music career. If he can’t compete, then it’s better to find out sooner rather than later. But how does one find out about limited opportunity issues? One might have better opportunities at a school slightly less known for music. </p>

<p>“Also, some studio teachers are more lip-service than truly on-board with taking dual degree students.”</p>

<p>I heard a specific comment about this for Oberlin from a graduate. Some don’t want part of a student. I can understand that.</p>

<p>"…keeping options open has some opportunity costs."</p>

<p>Does this start right away as a freshman for a school (like Yale) that has no performance undergraduate degree? Is it more so at some schools than others? Music has always seemed like razor thin path to stay on the fast track. Not going to a conservatory is a big step down off of that path, but there are some examples that show it can be done. What are the key ingredients for that to happen?</p>

<p>Know thyself is hard because my son is at a vastly different levels in math and in music. It would be easier if it looked like he was reaching some limit in one area. Right now, he clearly loves both areas.</p>

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<p>One con about required double degrees is that there seems to be an implication that majoring in music requires a back-up, or is, in some way, not enough in itself. Does any other area of study at, say, Bard, have this double degree (5 year) requirement?</p>

<p>There are many interesting interactions that can happen between different areas of study. Whether double degree,double major, major and minor, major and private study, or major and a smattering of other classes, I feel one of the real positives of a university environment for musicians lies here. For composers, for instance: If you go off to Bali to study the gamelan, will you become interested in anthropology or religion? If you compose based on reactions to a painting, in a class, will you become enamored of art history? If you love physics, what kinds of acoustics or electronic speaker orchestras can you investigate? If you love math, will you enjoy creating algorithms for computers to generate compositions? If you study the environment, what will a hike in the Alaskan wilderness inspire musically. And so on.</p>

<p>I think that in many arts fields, the concept of “making it” is changing and is no longer, in the end, so razor thin. Musicians, like other artists, are making some of their own opportunities, and the Internet, new fundraising options, global networking, entrepreneurial spirit and collaboration (rather than competition) are making all kinds of things happen.</p>

<p>I am not saying it isn’t hard, and I don’t mean to sound like a Polyanna either. Music may have to be in addition to a day job for many, in reality. But overall, I do like to see kids keep a lot of options open, see how they interact, and in general relax and enjoy a little alongside all that hard work.</p>

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<p>Keeping options open and opportunity cost:</p>

<p>If you believe that studying with a great teacher and being able to devote 3-6 hours per day to practice make a difference in the likelihood of achieving a performance career, then choosing a non-conservatory (or at any rate, choosing something other than a B.M. program) represents a risk. It’s not as simple as I just said, and it’s hard to run an experiment that will tell you much. It doesn’t mean that no-one can make it in music without a B.M., or that everyone who is academically gifted and interested should choose a Liberal Arts degree. But I believe that there certainly are people who are more likely to make it in music with the support and teaching and improvement that comes from 4 years of a B.M. But believing that doesn’t mean that the choice is obvious: there are also students who succeed in a performance career after getting a B.A., or doing a double degree program. </p>

<p>I think listening to people’s personal experiences can be helpful, particularly if you can see how you do or do not resemble them emotionally or intellectually.</p>

<p>Here’s one: my child had great academic and music performance options at the end of high school. The kids she knew who went to conservatory in general were overjoyed at how little coursework they were required to take outside of performance classes. They regarded gen ed requirements, music theory and history requirements - as distractions and barriers to what they really were interested in doing. I’m SURE that this does not describe the attitude of every conservatory student - but that’s what she saw among the people she knew. She knew that wasn’t her - so she turned down the conservatories. </p>

<p>There is no question in her mind that her playing during her years at Yale did not improve as much as it would have elsewhere. That’s OK with her - (a) she could probably still get into a decent Performance Masters Degree program if she wanted (altho I imagine she would be offered less $$) and (b) she’s interested in doing other stuff now. There would have been no way to predict this 5 years ago.</p>

<p>More about trade-offs: if he wants to live and breath physics and math for 4 years and has the oppt’y to do that at Harvard or MIT or Princeton, he would be giving up a lot to go do that at Oberlin or Lawrence or UofM instead. Nothing is impossible; you can get a degree in physics at a 3rd tier commuter school and end up a professor of physics at a pretty reputable Research-I institution (don’t laugh, I’m related to someone who did that. Although that was 40 years ago and I think times have changed somewhat.) But it’s less likely.</p>

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<p>Compmom - that’s an interesting question. Are dual degrees usually only for music? Bard College actually offers quite a few dual degree options: [Bard</a> College | Dual-Degree Programs](<a href=“http://www.bard.edu/academics/dualdegree/]Bard”>http://www.bard.edu/academics/dualdegree/) but many are either degrees from two separate institutions (often in different countries) or undergrad + masters. </p>

<p>However, they also offer “The Program in Economics and Finance, which grants a bachelor of science in economics and finance and a bachelor of arts in a field other than economics, meets the needs of students who want a broad education in the liberal arts and sciences as they prepare for careers in the financial world, or students pursuing other professions who seek fiscal savvy.”</p>