my extremely bright daughter did an extremely stupid thing

Parents Forum
21

<p>Mumbe:;</p>

<p>Momsdream also had an excellent suggestion, be contrite, accept responsibility, and offer to make something positive going forward.</p>

<p>But, I think the legal advice extremely important. Unless your attorney has intimate knowlege of that specific school and its processes/honor code/etc., if it was my kid, I'd have my local lawyer contact local counsel -- perhaps in the same city as the school. At least that way you can find out what the school's history is in similar circumstances, how it was handled by admin, and, more importantly, any if your D has any legal/criminal possibilities -- each state is different.</p>

22

<p>If they had suspended everybody who smoked pot when I was in college, there wouldn't be a college. I would lighten up on the whole thing and just offer to get your daughter an attorney if she needs one. What school is this that has time to monitor joints on campus? Alanon for a joint? I think alcohol is a bigger problem for most people.</p>

23

<p>Mumbe, 'tis the season for smart people to do dumb things. Man, I've heard some doozies this month, and not just among college students. People are generally cranky and wound up. I call it, "Post-Christmas Stress Syndrome," and it's like one, big holiday hangover. :o</p>

<p>I have an "As you wish," approach when it comes to delicate parenting situations, like this. There are two issues in my mind, what she should do, and what you can do to support her in her decision-making. What she should do is strictly up to her, imho. </p>

<p>Stand down, and let her handle things on her own, as hard as that may be. So far, it looks like she is willing and able to deal with the situation herself. Discuss the situation, but don't judge her, unless you are willing to reveal every questionable thing you ever did in college and allow her the same opportunity to critique your past. No, thank you! I really don't want my kids (or my mother, for that matter) to know a lot of stuff I did in college. Suffice it to say, it involved weeds, fungi, and occasional public humiliations. </p>

<p>I'm beginning to get the idea that my role as a parent during my children's early adult years is to watch them become adults; to watch them make some of the same stupid mistakes that I did when I was 18 to 22 years old; to keep my mouth zipped; and to love them as adults. I've been known to offer my motherly opinion in a not-so-subtle, anvil-over-the-head kind of way! I'm just saying, Mumbe, maybe as our kids get older, it is not our job anymore to intervene whenever we think we know best. Just my 2 cents, anyway. I'm sure you'll do fine with this!</p>

24

<p>Alot of good advice here. I agree with NSM that this is not a one time deal for your D. That is something that she is going to have to address. You also need to make sure the legal end of this is covered. Is she going to need an attorney? Will this be a college issue, or are they also going to report the matter to the authorities? I think an attorney should talk to her regardless and let her know exactly what the legal ramifications are in getting caught in a drug deal. Sometimes colleges take care of the issues themselves and kids don't realize that they could well be sitting in a jail cell for a while had they been caught in a different venue. That reality should be clearly brought home to her. </p>

<p>I think Alanon is a good resource for you, as the parent, but she should be going to some 12 step type program as well. People may hoot at AA, but when you go before that judge with your advocate, the fact that you are seeking a nationally recognized organization for help on your own volition, can make a big difference. If not AA, some group known for drug issues should be a stop for your D. The counseling is a good first step, but she will need to do a bit more. It may also be the best thing for you to consider voluntarily withdrawing from the school for a semester, a year, for her to undergo counseling during that time period. Sometimes a school will be happy to have the family take charge of the issue. Stories of this sort spread like wildfire through a school and are sure to put even more stress on your D. It might be better for her to come home, take care of the problem there, and get herself on even keel before deciding whether to go back to the school when this is old new, or to go elsewhere. </p>

<p>I was in college in the '70's, and you could smell reefer walking through any of the dorms at any given time, but one girl in the dorm complex got caught selling drugs. It turned into a police bust, and 30 years later at our reunion, it is remembered and discussed. So if your D's psyche is fragile, this may not be the best environment for her. She may need a safe haven to recover, and decide what she wants to do and how to behave. Also, in a college dorm, it is too easy to get caught in another compromising situation even if it is not her fault. It rarely happens, and if it does, people generally look the wrong way, but she has 2 strikes right now that are well known, and she will get no latitude or leeway as other students might. She would also be an easy fall guy if things go wrong. I say this because my son's prep school had to clear out the boarders one year because of an alcohol incident. All kids involved were punished in one way or another, even if they just knew about it and did not report it, were in the same room with it. For first time offenders, the penalties were really more of a slap on the wrist, but anyone already in any kind of trouble or on probation was out the door. That is part of why my son does not board. He is always in enough trouble that any additional demerits could put him over, even if he is not directly involved. Good luck and let us know, how this goes. This is a common problem, and if she is really getting overly involved in substance abuse, better it is a school problem than if the law were involved. School probations, expulsions are one thing; drug charges can be felonies that can affect your record for the rest of your life. Most importantly of all this is certainly a flag for her to have a mental and physical health examination to find out how deeply she is involved and how much damage is done. Some parents do not find out that their kids are involved in substance abuse until they are serious injured or killed.</p>

25

<p>Mumbe,</p>

<p>I would suggest that you again look through the school's handbook so that you can be prepared for the best and worse case scenario. No matter what happens, your daughter should be prepared to take responsibility and accountability for her actions.</p>

<p>Her perdicament , made me wonder about the policy at my own daughter's school. Their policies are as follows:</p>

<p>Adjudication of the Violations of the Student Drug Policy</p>

<hr>

<p>Violation of the student drug policy will subject students to sanctions ranging, for example, from reprimands with a referral to a drug education program to separation from the college depending upon the nature and circumstance of the case. Sanctions are not automatic.</p>

<p>In determining the appropriate sanction for violation of the policy, the Dean of the College and Committee on Standards will, at a minimum, consider the following circumstances:</p>

<p>How the violation was committed;
The amount and nature of the drug(s) involved;
The level of knowledge and intent of the student(s);
Delivery or attempted delivery of drugs; and
Prior offenses of the student(s).
This list is not exhaustive and other circumstances may be considered in the determination of a sanction. There may also be legal consequences for criminal charges that may result from the use, possession or distribution of illegal drugs.</p>

<hr>

<p>College Undergraduate Judicial Affairs Office listed the following conduct penalties.</p>

<p>Conduct Penalties</p>

<p>Any penalties will be in addition to the costs of restitution deemed appropriate by a Dean or the COS.</p>

<p>Possible sanctions which may be imposed by a Dean or the COS (committee on standards) include:</p>

<p>College Reprimand</p>

<p>Reprimands are given by the deans for minor misconduct. A reprimand is recorded in the student's file in the Office of the Dean of the College but is not reflected in the student's transcript. Reprimands in a student's file may be considered in any future disciplinary proceedings. </p>

<p>Sanctions for Alcohol and Drug violations may also include a referral to a required educational program or individual assessment with a counselor in the Counseling and Human Development Office. Failure to comply with these requirements will prevent registration in subsequent terms and may provoke more serious penalties.</p>

<p>College Discipline</p>

<p>Discipline may be imposed either with or without restrictions for a period up to the duration of the student's undergraduate career. The penalty is given for serious misconduct or for repeated minor misconduct. </p>

<p>The nature of the offense and decision is recorded in the student's file in the Office of the Dean of the College. Notice of the misconduct and penalty will normally be sent to parents. </p>

<p>Restrictions associated with College Discipline may include prohibition from owning, operating, or maintaining a motor vehicle on campus, prevention of participation in intercollegiate athletics or performances of College-associated organizations, or ineligibility for service as an officer in student organizations or on College committees, among other possible and appropriate actions. </p>

<p>Suspension</p>

<p>A student may be suspended for misconduct found to be sufficiently serious to warrant removal from the College community. Students suspended from the College must leave campus within 48 hours. Students who are suspended are not allowed to come back to campus unless they have prior permission from a dean. They may not participate in College academic or extracurricular activities; may not remain in College or coed, fraternity, sorority housing; and may not progress toward completion of their Dartmouth degrees by taking courses at other institutions while under suspension. Readmission following suspension is not automatic and must be by application to the First-Year or Upperclass Deans Office. </p>

<p>Suspension is recorded in the student's file in the Office of the Dean of the College and temporarily in the student's transcript, for the period of suspension. Notice will normally be sent to the parents. </p>

<p>Immediate, Temporary Suspension</p>

<p>In the event of extremely serious misconduct a dean may require that a student leave campus prior to formal disciplinary proceedings. Such action will be taken when the dean believes that continued presence of the student on campus is contrary to the best interests of the College community. Immediate, temporary suspension normally requires that a student leave Hanover within 24 hours of notification by the dean. </p>

<p>Separation</p>

<p>Separation is permanent removal from the College community. A student will be separated only for extremely serious misconduct or for serious misconduct subsequent to suspension. Separated students will not normally be eligible for readmission. The student must leave campus within 48 hours of notification of separation and may not return to campus without prior permission from the Dean's Office.
Separation is recorded in the student's file in the Office of the Dean of the College and in the student's transcript. Notice of the separation will normally be sent to the parents. </p>

<p>Special Action</p>

<p>The COS may take other action appropriate to particular circumstances not covered in the preceding list.
In cases of a COS-determined violation of the Academic Honor Principle, the COS acknowledges that the faculty may reserve the right to fail the student for the exercise, the course, or both. </p>

<p>Fines</p>

<p>Fines of up to $100 may be levied by the deans or the COS. (An exception to the $100 limit is the schedule for Coed/Fraternity/Sorority Organization Stolen Furniture fines administered by the Office of Residential Life.)
The deans or the COS may also impose other obligations in place of or in addition to fines. Fines are recorded in the student's file in the Office of the Dean of the College but are not reflected in the student's transcript. Failure to pay fines or fulfill other obligations will prevent registration and graduation and may provoke more serious penalties.</p>

26

<p>sluggbugg, </p>

<p>You might appreciate the title of this actual parenting book: "How to get your kids to say No in the 90's when you said Yes in the 70's." </p>

<p>That is exactly why this issue can be hard to deal with. Unlike our parents, we have more first hand knowledge of casual drug use/users. What we don't know is whether our child is one of the many who makes it through college-age experimentation with no permanent damage or one of the others who falls down a well, with tragic consequences.</p>

<p>I just know that colleges do turn a blind eye to <em>so much</em> that getting caugh--twice--shows, at the very least, a serious lack of judgement. Generally kids with good judgement know where they can and can't push the line and thus do not get caught, even if their behavior is NOT lily white.</p>

27

<p>Sllugg/bugg - I totaly concur!</p>

<p>Wondering if any of you got caught smoking/drinking while in college and what the results were? In my freshman year at a large public university, I got truly plowed one night and got back to the dorm after curfew (showing my age here) - caught drunk - had to go before a "peer board" and was put on "social probation" for several weeks. The worst part was having to call my parents and tell them before they got a letter from the school. Truly terrified of their response as I was Miss GoodyGoody and burst into tears when my dad answered the phone. After my blubbering and sobbing about how much trouble I was in and how sorry I was, I finally got the words out - "Went out, drank too much, came in late, drunk, got caught, etc. The best part was my dad's reaction - "Oh is that all - just don't do it again!" Years later it dawned on me that the poor man was probably so relieved I wasn't pregnant, I could've told him anything!</p>

<p>For what it's worth, I was very careful from then on...also five girls on my floor were on social probabtion for the same thing at the same time I was.</p>

<p>Now, I know things are different today and smoking/drinking is perhaps more of a problem than in my college days (well, maybe drinking is about the same, actually) but I think some of the parents here need to lighten up and relax. I think Alanon might be a little overboard...JMO</p>

<p>I am not making light of the situation, and I think you should consider all the excellent suggestions you have received. Perhaps your D is easily influenced by others (I was at that age) and doesn't really feel comfortable saying "no" even when the smoking/drinking is making her uncomfortable. I think an attorney is absolutely essential. She sounds like a basically levelheaded young woman who has made some poor choices and is having to live with the results. Unfortunate, but it happens. I have no doubt she will be a stronger person for it.</p>

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<p>Interesting and good points SBMom</p>

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<p>By the way I would also get an attorney in this situation BUT I would make my kid pay the attorney's bill.</p>

<p>When my HS senior missed a medical appt and we got charged, I made her pay for it. (She hasn't missed one since!)</p>

30

<p>While I can see the advisability of consulting an attorney, I don't know whether it's adviseable to take an attorney into the college's judicial system. From what has been posted, it seems that the college is handling the offense through the campus' system, not through the community's police department. This means IMO that your daughter is being given a big break in that it looks like she will come out of the experience without a criminal record. </p>

<p>The college does not have to do this. I am familiar with a case in which a group of freshmen were caught drinking in a dorm freshman week. They were caught by an RA who, in accordance with the campus policy, called the police. The students involved faced charges from the city.</p>

<p>If the the OP's D's situation is being handled through a campus judiciary process I am wondering if it would actually hurt her to show up with her own lawyer. I know of a student who was caught plagiarizing. The situation was blatant. The student tried to pass off as the student's own work that had been published in a professional publication.</p>

<p>Instead of admitting responsibility and taking the punishment, which in this case was likely to be suspension, the student and the student's parent brought in a private lawyer, which then caused the university's lawyer to have to spend lots of time on a case that normally wouldn't have taken that high involvement. Faculty also had to spend lots of extra time with something that normally would not have taken that much time. Lots of ill will was generated.</p>

<p>Bottom line was that the student still was suspended. The parent was out of lots of legal fees. The student then had to face returning to get a degree from a campus where lots of people were aware of the trouble the student had gotten into and caused.</p>

<p>The student's situation differed greatly from the students who committed similar offenses, accepted responsibility and then took their punishment and rose above it. Universities know that young people make mistakes. Universities know that part of their own responosibility is helping young people grow up to become ethical, responsible adults. Universities' judicial systems are typically organized to provide punishment along with guidance: holding students reponsible while not throwing them into the legal system off campus, and thus sparing the students criminal records.</p>

31

<p>I sympathize. I hope you can get some sleep. But I'd also encourage you to look at this as a possible opportunity, as I'll explain below.</p>

<p>First, I think you need to let her handle it with her college, especially since that is what she wants and since she has already taken some steps herself. I would suggest to her that she find out, if she hasn't already, whether or not she is allowed a student advocate on her behalf, since some schools do. </p>

<p>Aside from her college, I think you can tell her that while you sympathize with any consequences she might face, you are also concerned about her substance abuse. Sure, it's in context -- drinking and pot-smoking are major forms of socializing at most colleges. Still, it's more alarming that she is involved with two substances than one, and that she sought to buy a joint, which is much more proactive than wandering into a room where friends are smoking and taking a toke. Also, the fact that she pursued this at some risk, since she had already been caught and disciplined for an infraction earlier, is worrisome. So, I think you can tell her you expect her to see a counselor or psychologist who can help her figure this out. </p>

<p>If she can say she is already seeing someone about this before her hearing, or has arranged to see someone, that might also help. It would show she has recognized the problem and is not just arguing she went along with the crowd.</p>

<p>We faced a somewhat similar situation with one kid in high school, who was caught at a picnic on the beach with a bottle of wine. It was hardly a huge offense, but we knew it was the tip of the iceberg and also represented a real opportunity. We told our kid we would not take the day off from work to go to the probation department unless she agreed to go see someone about this at least once. She insisted she didn't need to. We said she would soon be surrounded by a sea of alcohol and drugs at college and needed help figuring out what role they would play in her life before she went. She went to see someone, protesting all the way, and walked out of the first meeting having scheduled more. The probation department, because we had already gotten her help, was lenient.</p>

<p>I was always sincerely grateful to the officer who cited our kid, because it gave us leverage we didn't have before. She had good grades, worked, was great at covering up her tracks. I hope something positive comes out of your daughter's experience, too. Good luck.</p>

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<p>Everyone thinks she smokes on a regular basis, but I disagree. If she was buying an entire joint, already rolled, chances are it was one of her first times. Experienced smokers can roll their own pot, and would generally choose to do so, as to make sure the bag was a reasonable size. Although most first time users do not go to dealers, one has to look at it in a college setting. Drugs and drug dealers are rampant at college, and although inexperienced users would not buy drugs outside of college, they are able to do so in that specific environment. Although I doubt it was her first time, I do think it is possible that she hasn't done it many times before. I'm basing this entire agrument on your definition of "joint"...if you were just referring to the bag of weed as a joint, that invaldaites the entire thing. There might be a little terminology gap, and, if so, I'm probably wrong.</p>

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<p>SBmom, the drinking violation is one thing. Unless a student goes to a religious based school or other type of college where drinking is grounds for severe punishment, even the police are generally lenient about the intoxication and underage laws. Drugs are a whole different story. The penalties for getting involved with drugs, depending on the drug, the amounts, usage, selling, buying can be very severe. If the narcotics department of the local police get involved, the school punishment is really negligible compared to the long term ramifications of what could happen legally. Yes, I do know about drug use. I mentioned what the dorms at my college smelled like at any given time. But jail is a reality when you are dealing with drugs. This is not a situation where the student took a puff of something being passed around the room at a party. The situation has gone beyond that stage. </p>

<p>My nephew got into all kinds of trouble with just about every vice under the sun. But when we were talking about this a few months ago, he did mention that he never bought drugs. Used drugs, yes. Bought them, no. There were always kids around who supplied free of charge for social occaisions which was the only time he imbibed. So to take that next step of actually acquiring is really more than casual social use. You gotta want that stuff. Not always the case, I know, but I do think that the situation is more serious than having dilated pupils and smelling like pot coming from a party, and to get familiar with this scene, the parent might do well to join some information seeking group familiar with kids using drugs. </p>

<p>On the other hand, this could be an unfortunate set of events not likely to repeat itself, especially if the student is removed from that environment while things cool down. Time is often the most effective healer. But until I got to the bottom of what is going on in the student's life, I would want to get as much info as possible.</p>

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<p>Everyone thinks she smokes on a regular basis, but I disagree. If she was buying an entire joint, already rolled, chances are it was one of her first times. Experienced smokers can roll their own pot, and would generally choose to do so, as to make sure the bag was a reasonable size. Although most first time users do not go to dealers, one has to look at it in a college setting. </p>

<p>maybe she has enough sense to know that it is a less serious offense to be caught with a joint than it is to be caught purchasing a bag (which they would have most likely brought in the authorities)</p>

<p>Since she is on campus she basically has to resort to the sources on campus since she does not know where the local spots are.</p>

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<p>Mumbe; sorry to hear your story. Keeping these kids on track can be daunting at times!</p>

<p>I agree with other posters who advised you to refrain from calling or writing the administration. She does have two offenses but she's also on the Dean's List. You ought to counsel her to approach the hearings armed with three things:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>A full and honest confession of her lapses.</p></li>
<li><p>Repeated, sincere apologies for her lapse and all the unintended consequences.</p></li>
<li><p>A realistic plan of rehabilitation (counselling/new dorm/pesonal promise) which assures the university she will NEVER again break their code of behavior.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>Also, I recommend that you get a bit of family counselling to help you understand each other a little better. She hasn't given you an accurate picture of her life. I think you should take that on board and set out to clarify the relationship.</p>

<p>Humbly, I will disagree with the comment that the kids who get caught are the ones who are the worst offenders. The worst offenders generally come from dysfuncitonal families who could care less. Mombe clearly cares.</p>

<p>Some kids who get caught WANT to get caught. They might have the peer pressure resistance of a flea, for example. They might need adult intervention to help them cope with that peer pressure. Getting caught is a great excuse to say no the next time.</p>

<p>And I will say that leaving them in jail has it's risks. First of all, the police routinely lock up HEAPS of kids with parents who don't care enough to bail them out of jail. Unless you live in Mayberry and the police know your family and your family story, they may assume a no-show parent is uncaring or dysfunctional. That is what they typically see, after all. Your Johnny may be treated with less understanding if they think Johnny's parents don't care. </p>

<p>Also, if you've been in a busy police station late on a Friday night, you would see that the police are struggling to cope. They are pleased to see responsive, contrite, serious, caring parents coming to their aid. Couldn't be happier to see that kind of parent, in fact.</p>

<p>I know this because, one night in town, my S got off of a Pub Crawl Bus with his mates. They were in desperate need of a Johnny-on-the-Spot. </p>

<p>One of the boys unzipped then and there and emptied his bladder in the gutter. My S put his hand on his buckle and the next thing he knew, he was handcuffed and in the back of a police car--even though the other thirty kids went crazy trying to explain that the liquid evidence belonged to the other boy not my S. Didn't matter, they were busy and they were annoyed. </p>

<p>They were so annoyed, they didn't allow S to use the facilities at the jail. When they called us at 1 am, DH rushed down there--in time to ward off the pack of thirty who rushed to argue S's case. Thirty more kids in the police station. Just what they don't need.</p>

<p>DH aplogized for S's nuisance behavior and paid the fine. He made S apologize. Poor S was in agony by the time he got home and made it to the loo. </p>

<p>Had we left him in overnight, he could have suffered kidney damage. </p>

<p>He did hard labour around the house instead.</p>

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<p>You've received lots of good advice here on the situation itself so I won't repeat any of that but there is one concern I'd have if I were in your shoes. You say that the kid who she was purchasing the weed from was being watched by security. What happened to that kid? Did they call the police about him? Is there any chance that your daughter will be implicated in anything related to him?</p>

37

<p>I have to say (and I know this is the unpopular stance here) the only thing that would really worry me about this situation is the legal situation, getting kicked out of school, the scholarship and the social stigma placed on the student. Buying a joint wouldn't REALLY worry me too much (though, I would be concerned and would have a discussion). The instance of public drunkeness wouldn't freak me out. I would not feel like my child was not presenting an accurate picture of their life - is she really supposed to call mom on Sunday and recall what she did on Sat night at the party - even if she got in trouble for it? I wouldn't feel compelled to seek counseling. I wouldn't plan for detatchment (as noted in a prior post). </p>

<p>I wouldn't hire a lawyer to contact the school - lawyers make people nervous and angry - and the school might feel moved to take stronger action once a lawyer is engaged...if you bring the law to the table, expect the school to do the same - and you DON'T want that! </p>

<p>That's just me........this all seems like a bit much.</p>

38

<p>Actually when I am thinking legal advice a I am thinking advisory, not taking any action but just sussing out the situation.</p>

39

<p>good point always....</p>

<p>I also wondered about him. The school was watching him...with cameras? Were they in his room? Is this the first joint they've seen him sell or is this an ongoing problem? Why is he still around to deal drugs?</p>

<p>I also wonder if the full scholarship increases the student's chances for separation.....she brings no revenue to the school and is actually costing them money....and now she's causing problems.....no reason to keep her around.</p>

40

<p>"maybe she has enough sense to know that it is a less serious offense to be caught with a joint than it is to be caught purchasing a bag (which they would have most likely brought in the authorities)</p>

<p>Since she is on campus she basically has to resort to the sources on campus since she does not know where the local spots are."</p>

<p>No, it's the same offense to be caught with anything under 3 ounces I believe...it's considered to be for personal use unless you have a substantial amount...joint or bag, it's the same, unless you have a huge amount</p>

<p>Yes, she resorts to local sources, but no dealer in his right mind would roll a joint just for the heck of it, it's tedious and time consuming...she probably made a special request because she didn't know how and she doesn't smoke on a regular basis</p>