<p>Agreed. Your post above clarifies more what you were getting at. Yes, any plan of attack needs to be a decision the student makes with parents, counselors, etc. supporting.</p>
<p>I think that in the absence of negatives like parties, gaming, alcohol and all those things that can sink a new college freshman you are spot on with focusing on his limitations. If this were my son I’d give him the opportunity to go back and completely change up the classes. If he’s got gen eds that need to be completed, if he’s got “space” in the four year plan to take some electives. It might give him an opportunity to get his educational confidence back. But, you might find out he doesn’t want to return in which case you could help him spend the time figuring out if engineering is the “right” thing to be pursuing, if this is the right fit of a college for him as well as deep dive if there are organizational or time management issues. Finally some kids just aren’t “ready” for college. It reminds me of testing ready for kindergarten where they tested for social, cognitive and physical readiness…there is more factors than just high school performance for kids to be successful in college. Use the holidays to listen to your son and listen to what he says. He might just need another year or so before he’s “college ready.” How old is your son?</p>
<p>Following with interest. We just unveiled the grades at this house. Not failing, but tears were shed, and there is talk of quitting engineering.</p>
<p>In re: the academic side of things . . </p>
<p>Best for the kid to take a leave ahead of any permamant academic action . … usually there is some probationary period if grades fall below a certain level . . if they are still above that level for your S that’s a good thing!</p>
<p>All kids need to learn how to manage themselves, so the meta-solve is for the kid to learn how to recognize when he needs help then to get that help (from counselors; from study center; from the health center, etc) . . . many kids think that you have to be “less than” to get that kind of helop . . . an Academic Affairs Dean friend at a local college notes that it’s the students in academic trouble who tend to stay away from the help centers (“if I go there it means I’m in trouble”) . . . </p>
<p>Doing more of what one did in HS won’t cut it . . . it’s a different milieu, so different habits of studying and test-taking and geting help in college need to be built . . . that may take some time to unlearn prior habits and build new ones</p>
<p>I’d start by assuming that he is NOT diseased. And that he may not be cut out to be an engineer. More than 2/3rds of students who enter thinking they are going to be engineers end up in something else, and the vast, overwhelming majority don’t have ADD, ADHD, or anything like it.</p>
<p>And let’s be clear: he is NOT flunking out. In fact, he isn’t even close.</p>
<p>Yes, I’d start by assuming he not disabled. My sophomore had a failing grade this semester…I never saw him as a STEM kid and those types of high school courses were never his forte, but yet that’s what he’s pursuing…we had a long talk about majoring in something that he enjoys AND he’s good at. He took 19 credit hours against my better judgement and he blames that…but still. He shoulda withdrawn, but sometimes kids just think they can power through. College is a one two punch. I remind him, as I did his older brother, that like high school, classes in college get tougher as you go through the years.</p>
<p>You might want to look into the Edge Foundation. Your son could get an academic coach to help keep him on track. Since everything is done online or over the phone your son would not have to go somewhere on campus for “help”. I am not affiliated with this company - I just happened across their information and it looked like it could be very helpful for a college-aged student who needs help with executive functioning skills. I wish you and your son luck with working everything out. He definitely is intelligent enough to do college work so hopefully you can find the solution to help make him successful.</p>
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<p>Me, too. Classic sign of ADHD or OCD.</p>
<p>I think the STEM major does cloud things a bit but I assume he wasn’t taking only engineering classes. Of those 3 Ds, 1 F and 1 C there had to be a general education requirement or two. A kid with a 3.5 GPA in HS shouldn’t be doing so poorly in every class. </p>
<p>My son talked about the ‘cluttered mind’ thing a lot in HS and his inability to focus. Even with that, he still had a reasonably high GPA and finished his freshman year of college with a 3.8 (prior to diagnosis of ADHD/Sleep disorder and any meds). I deeply regret that I did not listen to him for the 3 or 4 years he was complaining about an inability to focus in HS. His psychologist said he is off the charts in terms of IQ and should have performed much better than he did in HS (he had a 3.8 WA). The only reason we finally had him tested was my counselor said that a lot of his behavior was typical of someone with ADHD (spacey, disorganized, easily frustrated, somewhat emotionally immature). Getting that diagnosis and some medical intervention has made a big difference in how he feels about himself today. </p>
<p>If I were the OP, I would have some deep conversations with her son to see if he thinks the issue is something that is going on inside of him that is making his brain feel ‘cluttered’. Has it always been there or is it a recent development? Is he’s simply overwhelmed by the STEM program and just needs to back off? Does he feel depressed? Anxious? A lot of mental health issues appear in the late teens/early twenties.</p>
<p>I think getting to a educational or even a clinical counselor is a good idea. He might not be flunking out but he will surely be put on academic probation next semester and if he can’t pull out he could very well flunk out.</p>
<p>Engineering is HARD for most students. Really hard. The demands are relentless, with numerous assignments. If a student is disorganized or lacking good sleep… it’s even harder. In some classes, a C is a huge victory.</p>
<p>I like the idea of talking to college counselors. However it turns out, I am encouraged that your son is talking to you about details of his challenges. That is a great step.</p>
<p>Every year post first semester there are a group of highly intelligent kids who seem to be struggling with their engineering programs. Historically (on this forum) the kids who succeed in engineering are not any smarter than other top students, it is just that their brains are wired with a different type of thought process. </p>
<p>I wish I knew how to help you and your son work through this frustrating time. He sounds like a great kid and I wish you all the best. With your support and his desire to succeed, I feel confident that you two will come up with a plan to put him back on track.</p>
<p>Hello there. My son is 19 so he is not real young as a freshman. I have been doing a lot of research and believe he is challenged with some form of add/executive issue/possible ld. Hopefully, not a more severe mental health issue – I don’t really think the latter is highly probable, but we don’t know yet. We will tackle this issue as a team and let him make an informed decision. </p>
<p>I think we should be looking at compensation techniques regardless of the root cause assuming there are no other harmful mental health issues. </p>
<p>Any and all feedback is very much appreciated. Thanks so much.</p>
<p>i did not read the entire thread but I suggest ADHD evaluation. Meds could turn things around quickly (2 months)</p>
<p>Sorry–didn’t read all of the previous posts, but your son’s courseload looked very tough. It seemed like he took 5 classes. At my college, most people only take 3 or 4 classes each term, and incoming freshmen highly advised to take 3.</p>
<p>Definitely try to see if he can lighten his courseload.</p>
<p>Your son’s Math SAT score of 620 certainly puts him above average for all college freshmen but probably well below average for engineering majors. A study done by a professor at the University of Oregon focusing on Physics majors found that there was no minimum SAT score needed to succeed in all majors except three; Physics, Math and Engineerin. A 600 was the absolute lowest score on the Math SAT a student could get and still have any hope to succeed in any of these three majors. Typically, it was found that students who did well in these majors had Math SAT scores of at least 700. </p>
<p>My eldest son had a 640 SAT and planned to major in Engineering and I was very concerned as to whether he had the aptituded in Math to succeed and talked to him about other possible science majors which did not require a 700 SAT score to do well in. He is now a junior majoring in Geology, doing well, enjoys it and should have excellent employment opportunities when he graduates.</p>
<p>I had 630 Math (and 630 Verbal) on the “old SATs” long ago. It was rather unusual for a non-lopsided student to be in engineering, but I did ok. My observation though is that engineering is even harder these days. </p>
<p>My strengths were perseverance and organization… and often college students (including one of my kids) are so bright that they breeze through school so easily that they do not have those strengths, and engineering studies are HARD. If the student is inattentive-ADHDish, then it becomes hard for them to concentrate on the uninteresting classes. </p>
<p>I have no answers. My kid that struggled in Engineering far prefer Economics. But the envisioned comp sci minor became a definite no-go.</p>
<p>I absolutely support the notion of a complete physical work up (gads, I am dismayed at the poster who trashes the concept by using the word “diseased” – a car isn’t “diseased” if it has a clogged fuel line – and some problems are easily diagnosed and fixed). </p>
<p>So, as a parent of TWO sons who ran into rough weather (hang in there, parents), I share our details:</p>
<p>Son One didn’t run into trouble until his sophomore year. Suddenly he was horribly overwhelmed. Thank God for a fraternity brother who heard S1 snoring. “Do you have sleep apnea?” was asked. An emergency evaluation later and the news was in: the kid was not getting “real” sleep. One CPAP machine later and life was much, much better. (apparently adding beer to life can aggravate or trigger sleep apnea. Who knew?)</p>
<p>Son Two managed Term One ok, Term Two started to sink and Term Three was a stinker. Here’s what helped:
The testing that was so amazing in seeing how our guy’s brain worked were:</p>
<p>Delis-Kaplan Executive Function System (D-KEFS)
Auditory Consonant Trigrams (Brown Peterson Task)
Rey Complex Rigure Test</p>
<p>all administrated by a psychologist who specializes in adolescents.</p>
<p>Turns out our (top SAT scoring) S2 has very low “Executive Function” (that part of the brain that says “it is now time to put on your shoes and walk to class”. Executive Function wasn’t so important in high school when he floated with the same gang of students from one class to another – but Executive Function is Huge in college (where everyone has a different schedule). </p>
<p>S2 switched from taking Honors Liberal Studies to the more linear Computer Science classes and is much, much happier. </p>
<p>Low thyroid is another thing that can cause gears to stick. </p>
<p>Please know that students can feel really, really guilty – like total jerks and losers – for these biological hiccups. My message was “you are smart and you are worthwhile” throughout (I will confess to some “WHAT??” moments too). </p>
<p>Please print this post off and show it to your kid. One of our sons graduated in June and the other is doing much, much better. There may be some very real, very organic reasons these courses are not going well. Go find the key. It may not be laziness at all.</p>
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<p>Do you mean this study?
<a href=“http://arxiv.org/pdf/1011.0663[/url]”>http://arxiv.org/pdf/1011.0663</a>
However, only physics and math were mentioned (University of Oregon does not have engineering), although the authors “expect that similar results also apply to highly mathematical fields of study such as some areas engineering or informatics.”</p>
<p>If that is the case, then it is not surprising that engineering degree programs pretty much disappear at low selectivity four year schools (those with few students with SAT M > 600). It may also explain why physics degree programs are in danger of being cut due to budget cuts at low selectivity four year schools – there are too few students to make offering them worthwhile.</p>
<p>Ahhh! That is the study I was looking for on MY thread!</p>
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<p>I would really like to reiterate this. The changes we have seen in our son since he was diagnosed with a sleep disorder and ADHD and subsequently treated have been nothing short of miraculous. He is a kid with a new sense of confidence. Knowing that he has the smarts and the tools necessary now to accomplish anything he wants has set him on a path he wouldn’t have even considered before. He went from not having any direction to recently declaring a biochemistry major with the intent of going to medical school. I don’t know what he will ultimately end up doing but it doesn’t matter. What matters is his belief in himself now that he knows a lot of issues were not because he was lazy and unmotivated. Both the psychologist who did the ADHD testing and his sleep specialist made a huge point of saying that in front of us.</p>
<p>A good friend’s son has had difficulty in hs and in college. Has been complaining for years of sleep issues. They refuse to have him tested and say ‘he’s just using that as an excuse.’ I feel so sorry for this young man. People tend to underestimate how much cognitive functioning can be adversely affected by physical (and mental) aliments - things that are easily treated. You don’t often get a do over in college and the effects on a young person’s confidence can last a lifetime. I would implore anyone whose child is complaining of sleep and attention issues to have them tested. It was the best money we have ever spent.</p>
<p>Olymom - So interesting. Bright/troubled kids come in many different mixes. My super bright D tested with very low “Executive Function” skills. Engineering didn’t go well (although she liked some of the subjects and adored the geeky classmates). And true comp sci courses have been disaster, even though she got an A in the easier Arts & Science computer course. She does ok in Econ classes, but I think Philosophy has been her best subject. The funny thing is that this is the kid that was a big reader but also begged us for math problems at bedtime.</p>