Need school suggestions for "average" student with unusual HS experience

Parent Cafe
1

<p>I'm wondering if anybody can help us find some schools to look at for my D, with her unusual situation. We will have limited time to search before applications are actually due, so I'm trying to narrow the field (at least to several dozen) before we return to the US next August. </p>

<p>D doesn't know what she's interested in, but probably some field having to do with English, writing, foreign languages, linguistics ....</p>

<p>We have no stats for her. Assume an 1800 SAT (with highest score in writing). She is taking the PSAT tomorrow at a military school. (We are not military, so she is not eligible to attend their schools. I am hoping the PSAT will trigger some college materials, though.) She is bright, but has been out of the US testing mode for 2 years, and never tests well anyway. Before we moved here, she was in the gifted program, but she will not be eligible when we return. (School rules say if you are out at any point, you must be retested to get back in, and by the time they test her, she will be part way through the school year.) I think she will look very "average" on her application.</p>

<p>Grades 9-11 were / are spent in a German Gymnasium. She has no grades at all for 9th grade, as they allowed her a year to learn the language. She still had to learn the material, as classes are cumulative (she takes most subjects -- math, physics, etc -- every year.) Her grades are still mostly Bs and Cs, (pretty evenly split between 2s, 3s, and 4s - a 1 in art) which we are quite pleased with, considering that all her classes are in German, and 2 years ago she didn't speak a word of it. They do not make any concessions for her in class, except they do allow her to answer some test questions in English, because she can't write in German fast enough. </p>

<p>She is not receiving a regular transcript, because she is considered a "guest student." They know she won't be here long enough to complete the Abitur (graduation exam), and they have no clue how important transcripts are in the US. We had to beg for grades; She does receive a "report card" in the form of a letter, with subjects and grades on it. </p>

<p>When we return to the US for her senior year, we expect that she will have to "test" to exempt some classes (as if she'd been homeschooled.) Her social studies classes probably will not transfer at all, as they are European based, rather than US based. So she is looking at 3 years worth of social studies her senior year. (We are also looking at the idea of holding her back a year. To give her a chance to re-acclimate to the culture, etc. She is not currently in favor of this.)</p>

<p>She is taking her "language arts" classes online via Univ. of Nebraska HS program. She is also taking chemistry, as she was too far behind to understand what was happening by the time she learned German. She has A's and A+s in those, but they are very easy. We hope to add health (half-year) so she doesn't have to take it with a bunch of freshmen when she returns.</p>

<p>Germans aren't big on extra-curriculars and honors. Here is what she has:</p>

<p>Violin, since age 6. Has performed all over town. Playing in Prague next month. Ringer in school orchestra, and "guest soloist" in annual Christmas Concert.</p>

<p>German lessons, intensive.</p>

<p>Community Softball team. (Not especially good, but chance to socialize.)</p>

<p>Volunteer activities with local English-speaking church (Live Nativity, concerts, etc.)</p>

<p>Now fluent in German. Currently also taking Spanish in school, and Chinese after school. (Both taught in German!)</p>

<p>Other school extra-curriculars include art club, chorus, orchestra (ringer), drama. </p>

<p>She won first place in a Bavaria-wide art contest.</p>

<p>Extensive travel.</p>

<p>I know middle school doesn't count, but it helps to give a better picture of her since the ops were different in the US:
Gifted program at school
All State violinist - 8th grade
Community Orchestra - 7th and 8th
Musical Theater (school)
Attended GA Tech on scholarship for a "women in engineering" camp - after 7th grade</p>

<p>She is an excellent writer, and I would expect great essays. We can probably come up with a couple good recs -- both the principal and her German tutor think the world of her, and speak pretty good English.</p>

<p>Our home state is Georgia, but she would like to go to school elsewhere. Other than that, she doesn't have a huge preference. The only schools she's visited were on brothers' rounds a few years back, and she is not a candidate for theirs (Penn and Juilliard). She doesn't have any real hook, as she has spent the past couple years just trying to keep her head above water!</p>

<p>We have done a bit of looking together online -- two schools that have piqued her interest are Bowdoin and William and Mary, but they would both be real reaches for her, I'm afraid.</p>

<p>I really appreciate your reading this far, and welcome any suggestions as to schools where she might fit, and where she stands a chance of getting in.</p>

2

<p>Is she adverse to just Georgia, or the South in general - I can see someone whose lived in Bavaria being unhappy about coming back to our heat and humidity!</p>

3

<p>She may have an easier time gaining admissions than you might think. She may be considered a nontraditional student. I know someone in your situation, but he went to another country. He was out of the US from age 9 until senior year. He was considered a non-traditional student by some of the schools his mother spoke with. Make sure that you spell everything out for the adcoms. The young man that I know was denied admission to one school bcs they said that he did not take a foreign language. English was his foreign language. He is completely binlingual, but the adcom did not understand this until after admission was denied and then they did not change their decision. He speaks 2 languages better than many if not most American students. Look carefully to make sure she has the required courses and credits required to gain admission. Call or email admissions of the schools to make sure that she has met the criteria necessary to be admitted to each school.</p>

<p>I am not familiar w schools offering wonderful language programs, so I really cannot help w that. I do have one school for her to consider-
Bard. I just do not know whether she meets their criteria w gpa bcs she really is a nontraditional student. I do not think her grades can be compared to the transcript of somebody that went to school in America. I would email or call and ask admissions how they go about evaluating students like your D.</p>

4

<p>Thanks for the responses. Cangel - I think she just wants to "go away" from home. Nothing in particular about GA except "familiarity breeds contempt." (Personally, I can't wait to get back!) She doesn't really care one way or the other about the weather, but she isn't averse to snow.</p>

<p>NEMom - I think the hardest thing will be explaining to the colleges! She emailed Indiana (asking for material), and tried to explain briefly and asked how to handle her transcript on her application, but they wrote back and said they "understand foreign transcripts." The problem is she doesn't have a normal German transcript either. I'm especially concerned about that year with no grades, although I guess they could treat her like they'd treat a student who skipped a year.</p>

<p>We will look at Bard online. Thanks for the suggestion.</p>

5

<p>It would help if you explained what she wants in her college experience -- what she is considering majoring, what kind of environment she'd like to be in, etc. Just knowing that she wants to be out of state is not enough. There are thousands of colleges in the US, most of which would gladly accept your D. Those colleges range from huge state universities with more than $30,000 students to private all girls colleges to expensive private institutions by the ocean to religious denomination-connected small colleges in isolated areas areas. </p>

<p>Also, are there financial restrictions on where she goes? Most colleges in the US accept the majority of applicants. About 65% of students get into their first choice college, so as long as you have helped your D make good selections of colleges to apply to, you should not have to worry about her not getting into anywhere. </p>

<p>As others have said, the fact that your D has lived abroad would be a big plus to many colleges who would see her as a wonderful addition to their campuses. Many colleges also have dealt with the kind of transcript concerns that you describe.</p>

6

<p>Your daughter seems to have a very unique secondary school experience, and I think that can work in her favor. I would start with her standardized test scores, just to develop a range of schools. Obviously, she still needs to apply to a range of schools with regard to selectivity. Then I would work with her to understand what she wants in a college, and try to use a matrix approach to define schools worth looking at. Finally, the application itself will be very important, as you clearly understand. I think I'd look at information regarding applications from homeschooled kids - her experience just doesn't fall into either the traditional U.S. student or the typical International student. I think that all of the issues you present can work to her advantage, but you'll need to be very clear about the details (i.e. resume or activites list with explanations). For schools that she is really interested in, I'd suggest that she write something like a cover letter summarizing the details, while requesting information.</p>

7

<p>Why don't you homeschool her for her senior year? Create the transcript based on the letters that you have with her grades from Germany and add the ones she is doing online this year. There are lots of yahoo loops for hsers that could help you. If you know where you are going to be in GA, there may also be a local group that can help you too.</p>

8

<p>Since her paper record and her actual ability are not much of a match, it is understandable that you have quite a challenge. It's hard to say whether a school such as Bowdoin really is a super-reach because it seems as though so much depends on how attentive the adcom is to looking at her application in an "out of the box" way. So, I think she should go for it and whatever other highly selective school(s) she might want to try. </p>

<p>However, for less selective schools she might consider (based on the fact that she likes Bowdoin), kids from around here often choose St. Michael's (Vt), Wheaton (Ma) and Roger Williams (RI) as small liberal arts schools. Im sure there are jillions more <em>waits for carolyn to chime in</em>. Oh, and Hofstra in NY is another possible - small uni with a LAC-like campus.</p>

9

<p>It is hard to make suggestions without knowing what she is looking for in a school, but there are a number of alternative colleges that will have no problem with a student like your daughter. I would look at Hampshire College in Massachusetts, Marlboro College in VT, and Sarah Lawrence in NY. I know for a fact that that Sarah Lawrence does not require SAT's and is far more interested in writing samples.</p>

10

<p>I misread your post the first time - I thought she was graduating this year, and you were considering a 5th year of high school, I now read it as she will have 1 year of high school in the US, with you considering holding her back for another year of high school. One possiblity that occurred to me was she could go to a state residential fine arts high school - these are public boarding schools basically, usually with an emphasis like math and science or fine arts. They might be a bit more flexible with helping her meet graduation requirements, and are not as expensive as a boarding school providing a PGY.</p>

<p>I agree that you and she will have to do a lot of talking to admissions. I think she does have a hook - her background and her violin accomplishments. A couple of schools popped into my head for different reasons - St. Olaf's has a strong music program, always needs folks for the orchestra, and generally strong academics, her stats might be a little low, but they might be able to work with her. B'ham-Southern is a school my daughter looked at that might be accomodating, they have a fine arts focus and are nurturing, but I can't remember if they have an orchestra. I realize she isn't majoring in music, my thinking is that some of these small LACs might consider her background in Germany a plus, and if they need good violinists, but tend to not get as many high stat and high talent kids, they might find her an asset.
Another option that came to mind are the schools in western NC - UNC-Asheville and Appalachian State - if you all are back in Georgia, these schools will have some of the climate of Bavaria, and still be close to home.
Another school that might be worth looking at is Mary Baldwin College in Va. It is a womens' college - the reason it came to mind is that it has a program a bit like Simon's Rock, they take advanced high school students, do a sort of combined year of high school/college, and then finish college a year or so early. Perhaps they have some experience with tailoring college to kids who haven't had standard prep - so that even though your daughter isn't actually in the program, they have some transitional classes to help fill gaps.</p>

<p>Just looking at it as an outsider, it appears that her difficulty in admissions will be demonstrating, and indeed, knowing what her abilities/potential is. Does she make Bs and Cs because she is a Band C student, or is it because she has always taken classes in a foreign language? How difficult will her return to the US be?
I would discuss with her the reality that it will probably take 5 years for her to finish college - either because her record is such that she goes to a state school where class scheduling becomes an issue, or because she has to take beginning classes to fill in gaps or because she does a PGY of high school or has to go to community college, etc. Hopefully, it won't work out that way, but that seems like a realistic possibility. Then given her goals, wishes and finances, you as a family can work out what is best for her - that's what I would emphasize, that this is one of the first mature decisions she will make, and she must not just consider what she wants, but also what is best for her future, given whatever financial constraints your family has. I guess I'm thinking, so she gets into a school like Bowdoin, but she has to take very basic classes because of her record in Germany, and ends up taking 5 years at $40K - wow. Now you start to think about colleges with few core classes!</p>

11

<p>Edit: while I was writing this, lots of people wrote in! This response should follow Northstarmom! :)</p>

<p>So, what are you saying? Language arts and outside of Ga -- that's not specific enough, huh? :)</p>

<p>Yes, Northstarmom, you understand our dilemma -- thousands of schools, and she doesn't know what she wants! When I try to get her to narrow things down, I get a desperate look and an "I don't know" wail. (The only definite I got was a resounding "no" to an all-girls school.) She says she doesn't fully understand the advantage and disadvantages of different kinds of schools. I would love to be able to take her on some visits to different types of schools, and let her get a better feel for things. When we return home next fall, I probably will do that. But for now, I'm trying to help her create a workable list.</p>

<p>As I said above, "D doesn't know what she's interested in, but probably some field having to do with English, writing, foreign languages, linguistics ...."</p>

<p>She says she wants a "big" school, but her current school has 350 kids in grades 5 through 13 -- so big is relative.</p>

<p>Quite honestly, there are no real financial limitations. Our older 2 chose expensive schools. We are in debt up to our wazoo, but can't very well limit the 3rd child, after giving an open field to the first two.</p>

<p>I'm guessing (knowing her) that the one criteria she has is that it be her "own" school. That is, she doesn't want to go where the rest of her class is going (most will stay in state, if they follow previous patterns) and is resisting schools of family members, too. She has no interest in competing with her brothers, either.</p>

<p>Although she "thinks" she would like a big city, I suspect that has more to do with brothers who went to NYC and Philly and loved it. I frankly think she'd be happier at a "pretty" campus. But she wants culture. I see her in the northeast somewhere, but I hate to exclude schools like Rice or Indiana or ???</p>

12

<p>sjmom and legion - we did discuss the possibility of homeschooling. Somehow it seems "wrong" to send her to 12 years of public school, then finish with a homeschool diploma. However, we will keep it as a backup. We visited the homeschool department of our county when we were home in May, and found them somewhat inflexible, and I don't really want to have to jump through their hoops.</p>

<p>All - thanks for the various suggestions, both as to schools, and as to approaches to take with her. Keep 'em coming, we really appreciate the insights and viewpoints. </p>

<p>Cangel - When we were in the US, she was pretty much a straight A student (got a B twice - one in 5th grade, and one in 8th grade - both for math.) Her grades here are definitely lower because of the language -- grades come almost exclusively from written exams. However, she really doesn't do that much worse than her classmates -- no grade inflation here. </p>

<p>"How difficult will her return to the US be?" That's a huge question. She has never attended high school in the US. Things like projects, and papers and busy work, jocks and cheerleaders, dress codes and zero tolerance. We won't know till it happens, I guess.</p>

13

<p>Where will you be living when you return to the US?</p>

<p>If she has liked the climate in Germany, I suggest that she look at schools in the NE or the Midwest. It will be far easier for her to narrow her list and for you to take her to visit schools if she looks at only one part of the country.</p>

<p>If she's interested in striking out on her own to a different part of the country than her siblings, she could consider Minnesota. You could take her to look at University of Minnesota, Macalester, Carleton and St. Olaf. U Minn. and Macalester are in the city. Carleton and St. Olaf are near the city, but in small areas, so she could have the best of both worlds. That also would be an easy trip to do as everything is relatively nearby.</p>

<p>If she decides to look at New England, Bowdoin is a good one to consider as it's SAT optional. It is not, however, in a city, so she may not like it. Plus, it's a long drive from most other colleges.</p>

<p>Instead, I'd suggest that she head to Boston where she could check out colleges in and around the city like Simmons (a women's college. It's great for girls to look at a women's college even if they aren't sure they'd like one), Boston University, Clark and Wheaton.</p>

14

<p>Binx:</p>

<p>Schools in different countries have different grading systems. A 10/20 in a French school would be a very decent grade in most subjects, and would be an F in an American school. My niece passed her baccalaureat with honors and was dancing with joy over her 16/20 in biology, much to the bemusement of my kids who did a quick mental conversion to 80/100 and did not see what there was to be so proud of. :( So the first thing is to look at the range of grades of mainstream students in her school and try to put her own grades in that context, including the fact that your D was plunged headlong into a German speaking environment (I well remember the sympathetic tone of my econ prof after I did dismally on the midterm: 'I'm sorry, but I can't administer the exam in French!"). Schools that get international students are fairly familiar with foreign transcripts. For example, some highly selective schools will accept the Abitur for Advanced Standing. Although your D is attending a public school, you could create a "transcript" by explaining what the classes cover and the grading system. For example, a 12th-grade math class in France would cover some calculus as well as geometry and algebra; how much would depend on whether the student is in a humanities, social sciences, or math/science track, but all 12th graders would have some exposure. That is very different from the American system where it is quite possible to graduate from high school with only some trigonometry and not much beyond that. </p>

<p>School selection: Her interests suggest that she should apply to schools with good humanities departments. This makes for a huge list, as most colleges have pretty good humanities offerings. So perhaps the criteria for selecting colleges should be extra-academic. Is the current school in a large city? Your D may find it difficult to adapt to a more isolated situation. Marlboro College is not only small (300, about 50-100 on year-long study abroad) but it is literally in converted farm buildings. If she does not mind a large university, BU has plenty of internationals. A LAC that is well-known for attracting internationals is Macalester. I have not visited but I would suspect that in many ways, it is similar to Bowdoin. Connecticut College attracts many students who also apply to Bowdoin and is a bit easier to get into. Would she want to be close enough to an airport? What kind of weather?</p>

<p>It looks like the PSAT may be difficult for her to take. What about the SAT? If that is easier to take, I would suggest ditching the PSAT altogether unless you think she could qualify for merit-money based on the PSAT. As for getting materials from schools, that is over-rated. My S did not get much in the way of materials last year because he took the PSAT as a sophomore. But he graduated early. Now that he is in college, we are receiving all sorts of college materials. Your D can prepare for the SAT with the help of review books (the 10RealSATs) and the Xiggi method, as explained on CC.</p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

15

<p>Binx - that helps. She needs to maximize her standardized test scores if possible to better reflect her real ability. I guess I have some of the thoughts that you do - an additional year of "conventional" American schooling would help clear up her credentials - the question is though is that best for her. How long will you be in the States before she begins her senior year? Would she be open to a gap year, maybe with service work and community college classes while she gets her feet under her?</p>

<p>I guess what you really need to know is which colleges will see the student beyond the numbers and which will consider that too much work!
Is this a situation where a paid counselor could be of value?</p>

16

<p>Binx,</p>

<p>Your daughter has had a fascinating high school experience . . .I see great college essays in her future. You will have an easier time sorting this out when you get back, I think; I would be it seems so much harder when you are away from the US. I agree with others about the importance of the test scores for your daughter. </p>

<p>I do have a little concern about putting a bunch of eggs in the William and Mary basket. Since they are a Virginia state school, they are mighty competitive for out-of-staters.</p>

<p>I look forward to hearing your story as it develops! Sounds like you have a bright and talented bunch of kids!</p>

17

<p>I think your daughter would have a better chance at a smallish school, say, under 2000 students, where applications are reviewed in detail and her unique background would stand out. A school with a strong foreign study program of its own would have administrators more inclined to take a student with so much to contribute.</p>

<p>Beloit College, on the Illinois-Wisconsin border, would be one such school to look at. It's acceptance rate is high because the student body is self-selected, intellectual and offbeat. They have an excellent foreign language program. A close family member went there, and the staff went out of their way to accommodate her diverse needs, including private Japanese classes and more than two terms overseas. Years later, her friends from college can be found all over the globe, in teaching, writing and social service. </p>

<p>I have been trying to think of similar schools, especially those founded by German immigrants. Does anyone else have a suggestion along these lines?</p>

<p>A last thought - any interest in one of the (mainly east coast) boarding schools that offer a 5th year of high school? She would then have two years of US schooling, and excellent guidance in choosing a college, for a price. Might be a good choice if you think she could use the extra preparation.</p>

18

<p>Binx, I'd take a look at Lewis & Clark for her. Even it it's not a fit, They have a high percentage of students who are U.S. citizens but were educated/grew up overseas. They pride themselves on that in fact. They are also strong in languages and English.</p>

<p>The admissions office there can be very good about answering questions there so I'd get in touch with them via email, explain the situation of the transcripts in great detail, and pick their brains for suggestions about anything you could do now, before you leave Germany, to better record her background and classes for any school, not just L&C.</p>

<p>I also second the suggestion about hooking up with some online homeschooling groups (PM Mini for suggestions as he is very active in the homeschooling community) and getting ideas on how to present her course work and background to colleges.</p>

19

<p>Don't overlook Lawrence for its international connection! They do a great job with overseas folks and have one of the largest percentages of internationals around at 11-12% depending on the year. It's huge for a kid coming from a 300 K-13 school! Also it's kind of in a Germanic area...being Wisconsin and all! :)</p>

20

<p>Thanks for all the suggestions and advice. We're gradually making our way through it. Your comments about individual schools are invaluable -- stuff we just don't know. Like what schools are close to big cities, and which ones are old barns!</p>

<p>As I share your comments with D, you're helping her discover what she really wants. (She's giving careful thought to how much snow she can live with. :) ) I think we will create a huge master list, and let her start crossing off as she discovers what she doesn't want -- since it seems to be easier for her to say "no." Especially as she looks at the extra-academic aspects, as Marite suggested.</p>

<p>NSM - We live in a small town here -- 47,000. But we will be returning to Atlanta, where she has spent the other 14 years of her life. She loves the cultural offerings of the big city, but has never actually lived "down town." Although she says "big city" I can easily see her overwhelmed.</p>

<p>Marite -- I'm sure you appreciate more than most of us what she has gone through in the past couple years! However, she has become far more independent that I would have ever dreamed -- something to do with the fact that Mom can't run interference when she doesn't speak the language! (I'm a living Tower of Babel.) </p>

<p>You are right about the classes being so different. It is hard for us to even know how to compare them. I did scan the table of contents of her books last year (onto the computer), just in case someone wants more specifics on what she learned. I think she is probably going to end up with a quality education here, but how to prove it? She will have had 3 years of physics (not every day, but several days a week) -- but her German peers will get 5. Is 3 good enough to equal a US year? All her math classes (algebra, geometry, etc) are taught as "math" -- how to divide it? She takes about 12 subjects, but some won't count at all (eg. religion) and others we might have to fight for. The US school already said they can't give her foreign language credit for her German because she didn't learn it in a "class." (2 hours a day, 5 days a week, with a private tutor!) Her social studies classes are German based: German political systems, economics. She can tell you all the capitals of the former Soviet countries -- in German.</p>

<p>She is technically a "math major" here, as they felt that focus would be easiest for her, given the language difficulties. So her schedule is a bit heavier in the math/science area.</p>

<p>Thanks for the encouraging words Momofthree. We do expect good essays! The education she has had over the past couple of years is not anything that would ever come out of a book. </p>

<p>Cangel, we were all set to talk to a hired counselor -- we were going to return home in August during her school break. Then my dad died in the spring, and we went home sooner and had other priorities. Her school here goes through the end of July. Her school in Atlanta begins the second week of August. In between we will have a cross-continental move. She will get next to no adjustment time. I'm just not sure there will be time for a counselor to do much. Unless she adds an extra year in somewhere. (She has a summer birthday, and is small anyway, so an extra year wouldn't hurt. But it means not graduating with her class, which is a big deal to her.)</p>

<p>She is all set to take the PSAT tomorrow. This is our trial run for taking the SAT -- not jsut the test itself, but for silly things like logistics for getting us civilians onto the army post. So much harder post-9-11. I am not expecting great scores (for multiple reasons.) I do want her to get some college materials because I think it helps to keep the whole concept "in her face." Her peers are NOT dealing with this, so she has the opposite of the constant pressure kids get state-side. My S1 "discovered" Penn via these mass-mailings. I can hope that perhaps a school might trigger her interest in the same way.</p>

<p>Midwest- you put words to some of my thoughts. I told D today that perhaps we need to look for smaller schools where they might be willing to look harder at her. I'm afraid for many schools she will simply be too much trouble. I also think (as her mom) that she would do better in a smaller school. Whether or not I can convince her of that remains to be seen.</p>

<p>Carolyn, great tip about Lewis and Clark (which I have never heard of.) Especially asking what we can do while we are still here. And I had never thought about learning about "presentation" from the homeschoolers.</p>

<p>To everyone, the school suggestions and comments are exactly the kind of info we are looking for, and we are keeping a list. Thanks so much.</p>