They excluded about 35-40% of the students from test scoring counting towards USNWR ranking.
That’s a pretty huge slice of their student body. Not surprising their test scores seem higher.
@clarinetdad16 Did I answer your question satisfactorily?
Seriously? As a student, I see it every day.
They have not only improved their resources and facilities but also their faculty. The CS department for example, already with a good core, is constantly expanding. In fact, most departments are in hiring mode thanks to improved rankings. They are making the classes and the research better.
The article you tirelessly link to shows how much the facilities have changed and benefit the students, both for living and for academics.
As far as freshman statistics, NU.in is only 50 points lower on the SAT as it has been pointed out. As far as internationals, while it is optional, I am sure some with good test scores submit them, as it can certainly help. I’m not fully an expert in this area so correct me if I’m wrong.
In terms of class sizes, it certainly doesn’t hurt to keep class sizes in line. I know that all of my classes have been under 70 people, and most under 35. My major is pretty popular too…
Financially, NEU is now offering “full need met” for incoming applicants, again another product of their rise. That greatly benefits needy students. On top of that, you seem to have this image that most of NEU is full-pay, but many are on great FA packages, myself included. I’m paying less than my local state university probably, except I opted out of the federal loans. Point being, students see the benefit again.
The co-op program doesn’t need to be spoken for. You keep talking about NEU as it’s niche being “full pay internationals”, but a majority of the student body is focused around the co-op program, and part of its rise, in my opinion, is the fact that the reason people go to college is changing: they want jobs. And NEU offers good employment, experience, and the option to try out jobs before it’s too late. Career services are consistently ranked top in the country.
I think if your purpose of college is employment, it’s one of the better options beyond HYPSM and niche selective schools in specific disciplines. Easily deserving of around Top 25. IMO, that’s their cap for the foreseeable future.
Other rankings have NEU lower for various reasons, but the commonality is that its unique parts of NEU that cause the differences. The graduation rate with the co-op program is one. The new rise of NEU holds it back in postgrad metrics since it’s always 5 years behind, and it disadvantages a school that is improving in the current years. Those stats are catching up now. In terms of research, NEU isn’t the strongest, but gets judged very much on it when the student’s don’t really benefit from it. The school focuses on the students, and IMO challenges the definition of what a good school consists of.
To me, it seems you’re too caught up in how NEU gamed one ranking system, something many colleges do to varying degrees, and aren’t looking at the results of it. Because the school has vastly improved thanks to it. I take pride in the school and even how it’s improved. Anyone that knows NEU has seen that article plenty by now, it’s not a secret or an exposee or a conspiracy.
Link to the stats for NUin?
@TomSrOfBoston for the above, borrowing his statistic.
@Clarinetdad16 Buried among the nitty gritty of a faculty senate minutes, page 3:
http://www.facultysenate.neu.edu/meetings/20142015/documents/SENM10114.pdf
Or you can take a look at the Northeastern decisions thread here on CC. Decisions start around page 7:
http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/northeastern-university/1747385-official-northeastern-class-of-2019-regular-decision-applicants-p7.html
So there really are no published numbers for NUin
Also, as far as I can tell, this is also wrong. NU.in reports that about 450 students do NU.in per year. Internations are reported as 19%, including transfers.
Last year, the class size was around 2900.
So, 450/2900 is 15.5%. Internationals are lets say 18%, assuming 1% is transfer.
At most, that means it would be 33%. But of course, those two groups will have overlap, though I can’t find a particular source for how many internationals are in NU.in. If we expect that 18% of NU.in is international (NU.in is no FA and full pay after all), then that number shrinks to 27%.
I will say 27% is still pretty significant. But is much different than 35/40%, which you don’t seem to have a source for.
If we think that 27% has, lets say 50 point lower scores than the 25% mark, and recalculate the numbers, here’s what we’d get, using the median of 25/75’s as reported here: http://www.northeastern.edu/admissions/application-information/academic-profile/
Average SAT reported: 2110
Average SAT adjusted: 2067
That’s a difference of less than 45 points. If we apply this to the 1600 scale (including scaling the 50 point drop), and look at rankings by SAT score, here are the results:
Reported Ranking using current numbers: 1425 - #29 - Directly below Cornell
Adjusted Ranking: 1390 - #35 - Tied With Wesleyan and Vassar
So, you seem to think there’s this huge conspiracy around stats, but the reality is that even the gaming NEU does doesn’t make a huge difference: the class profile is still impressive and rising significantly.
Again, this difference of about 35 points (US News uses the 1600) is only weighed about 8% by US News.
I would say that the official minutes of a faculty senate meeting are “published”. But you can try contacting the Office of the Provost for confirmation:
http://www.northeastern.edu/provost/contact/
What if the difference in the international numbers is 150 and 100 on the NUin. And there is no overlap in the groups as they wouldn’t send international students overseas to start. And they published the NUin had over 2000 students in 4 years so that number is north of 500.
So it very well maybe 35-40% that they excluded at 100-150 points on the SAT. That’s very significant.
And as you say those are full pay, and then you add in the ED full pays - NEU has a nice little formula there. Full pay ED have higher test scores, you exclude the low scoring full pays. Bingo rank rises.
Yes they do. International students also receive the Scholars (full tuition) program.
This is fun! I’m making popcorn.
Using the 50-60 points lower than average rather than 50 points lower than the 25%, those numbers I crunched shrink in significance even more. Probably around 25 points or less.
So, again, why is this such a big thing that discredits the entire university and their improvements?
That is the central question here. The test scores are a very small part of a university that offers an entirely different philosophy on college education in America, and has been making huge improvements for nearly two decades now.
Except there’s absolutely nothing to support that in both cases. It’s easy to skew things when you use “what if this thing were true” without looking at the actual chances of it.
No one has said this. NU.in is only full pay for one semester. A good deal of internationals probably are, but that is true of almost all schools beyond HYPSM+.
And again, what is wrong with full pay for qualified students? There’s no system where people with 1400’s and terrible grades can simply pay to go to NEU. The school just accepts many qualified applicants who can pay, and now meets the need of all other students thanks to this.
Seems like Northeastern requires a TOEFL score around 80 which judges English proficiency for International students. Although it seems they might accept much lower scores: http://www.cps.neu.edu/degree-programs/international/language-preparatory/english-language-program.php
Northeastern doesn’t require SAT for International students.
Northeastern enrolls a higher percentage of International students than almost any college. (18%)
Other schools that require SAT will often waive A TOEFL 100 score if the student had a SAT CR 600+. That number for TOEFL 80 schools is often SAT CR 530.
It’s very logical to connect those dots that Northeastern International students scored significantly lower than its domestic students on the SAT. (But NEU doesn’t publish those numbers)
What exactly are you trying to prove? I will give you a simple real World situation. Stuy and BxSci kids are going to NEU in record number. My son picked NEU over UMich. NEU has very respectable reputation with kids that didn’t get into Ivys and such. All the kids I know that are going are 2100+ SAT, these are super hard working and very bright kids loaded with APs.
@ClarinetDad16 You still haven’t answered my bolded question in the slightest, which is really at the heart of this thread…
@PengsPhils - so the formula you believe in is:
- recruit heavily overseas for full pay students with low English proficiency (But pretend their standardized test scores are similar to their US counterparts, even though they struggle at English. Have them not submit SAT so their numbers will not count - 18% student body)
- recruit heavily for full pay NUin students - and charge them around $40k for their first semester and make it abroad. So their lower test scores will not count - and have never been broken out - 18%+ of student body (Rely on an anecdotal comment at a meeting to show unsubstantiated NUin is only 50-60 points lower than regular admission). And also believe that these students would pay that much for a semester, but then be on aid - where are they coming up with that $40k???
So as much you are excited test scores are way up, but then try and question if test scores are important … NEU test scores for the whole class if actually reported fully would show a relatively strong top quartile, but a relatively weak lower quartile. The true average wouldn’t be at the level of the peer group they want be in. So therefore they game the numbers as shown.
Again lets give credit for the co-op program. Top rate.
But the students are not getting a better education through any of the games played to raise their numbers. The other rankings measuring outcomes paint that picture - with NEU very far from the top.
Takeaway Northeastern isn’t a top or bottom school. It’s somewhere in the middle and a good option for co-op.
You make a lot of assumptions, and have still not addressed any of the actual improvements I mentioned. See post #42
- You've made lots of sweeping generalizations, like that all international students struggle with English and are somehow not up to par with the rest of the university: that simply isn't the case. Some of the top performers in my classes are international students, and some even good friends. Most if not all speak english very well. They're usually bilingual. I don't see how having international students is such a bad thing. So what if they're full pay because they can afford it? Would it matter if they were american and full pay? Why does that matter so much?
- NU.in certinaly games the system a bit, and certinaly helps to bring in money. But the program has plenty of good features that make it an experience for sure. You have a point on the initial cost making it harder for FA students to take it, but if one had a good FA package waiting, it may be worth a loan to cover some cost.
Also, how exactly does one heavily recruit for NU.in?
- At the end of the day, due to the positive feedback loop of rankings, NEU truly does improve. It makes better facilities, hires new teachers, expands departments, revises degrees, all the things one would do to improve academically. They are constantly improving. Again, read post #42
- Test score averages rising show that Northeastern is attracting higher achieving students, even if the numbers are slightly skewed. As I showed, they are skewed by less than 25 points in some cases. As to the 25/75 difference, the range isn't some huge skew of 750-500. For example, the University of Rochester, a peer school to NEU according to rank on US News, has even larger middle 50% gaps. So, once again, your claim is pretty unfounded.
Source: http://enrollment.rochester.edu/wp-content/media/2014/12/UR_FactSheet_2014151.pdf
What outcomes rankings are those? Payscale data (Forbes)? How many of a few individuals end up on a list of leaders (Forbes)? These output measures have pretty funny methodologies if you look at them, and the last thing they are is reliable or accurate.
I agree on the research ratings. But, if you’ve read my post, post #42, I explain again why that’s part of the unique academic philosophy of NEU.
Meanwhile, employment statistics are pretty good for NEU. 50% of students get job offers from a co-op, and the school has a north of 90% employment rate, with of course much higher rates in business and tech, the strongest fields of NEU.
We get it. You have a problem with the gaming of US News. But that doesn’t mean the school hasn’t improved because of it. It has, significantly. In academics, in incoming classes, in facilities, and in prestige. What exactly is this missing for you?
You still don’t address anything beyond two points (internationals and NU.in) that you not only beat like a dead horse, but make incorrect assumptions about, exaggerate significantly, and even make false claims about that have been shown to be false here.
The school, while not for everyone with the co-op emphasis, caters to a growing population of students specifically going to school to get jobs, and has improved significantly while improving the school for said students. I see no reason why it doesn’t fit in its current spot, and why it can’t go a bit higher.
Proficient at English like this student?
http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/2015/05/30/northeastern-student-accused-paying-stand-take-entry-test/o3wN924tpiXSO3RbK1QBdL/story.html
Or this group of admits:
http://www.cps.neu.edu/degree-programs/international/language-preparatory/english-language-program.php
@clarinetdad16 You are really grasping at straws.
This is the American Classroom Program offered through the College of Professional Studies. These are not the international students who are admitted to the regular full time programs.
Many schools have international enrolments in the 15-20% range, especially in large metro areas.