<p>Obviously a student who want a tippy top U is supposed to take as hard a course load as is possible, which includes as many APs as possible. I have also heard that Lang and Lit are very important. </p>
<p>My kid had a very unusual experience this year and is not taking Lang, nor will she take Lit next year. All my kids friends and she (they are the top 5 in the class) were approached by someone in admin and told "don't take AP English. The teacher is horrible but we can't get rid of her because she has tenure. So, none of them did. Do you think admissions at top Universities will count that against her as long as she has lots of other APs? Is that something that should be noted somewhere on the application, or does it even matter?</p>
<p>It doesn’t matter, as long as she has taken what her counselor considers “the most challenging courses,” and checks that box on the counselors rec form. That doesn’t mean “all” of the challenging courses offered, but just that her schedule contains a majority of challenging courses. At my kids’ high school, they actually discourage students from taking 5APs. One of my kids took all math/science APs but not languages. The other did the opposite, and they both were admitted to very selective colleges. I wouldn’t worry at all, honestly.</p>
<p>Did they verify the teacher’s horribleness with other sources (e.g. students in her classes, poor performance on AP tests by students in her AP classes) instead of taking the word of one administrator? If not, they might be being manipulated as pawns in a back room political battle at the school.</p>
<p>The behavior of that administrator is very unprofessional.
I highly doubt that tenure prevents anyone from being fired for cause or transferred to another position.
Im wondering if the students just didnt want to do the work.</p>
<p>That is unprofessional. I also agree with ucbalumnus that sometimes there are political things going on…especially with top kids. I would be wary of following the advice of the administrator. </p>
<p>My son has had at least 3 really bad AP teachers. He had to self study for all and did very well. The high achievers can usually overcome the poor teachers.</p>
<p>That being said, I agree that it won’t matter in the long run. She’s in the top few kids and taking a rigorous courseload. </p>
<p>I agree with others that thee administration is being unprofessional and wants to throw others under the bus than to step up to their professional responsibilities. If the teacher is so terrible, why is the administration not addressing the issue with the teacher; modeling lessons, providing feedback from the formal and informal observations and if that does not work putting a letter into the file </p>
<p>Your school is not mandated to give AP courses. If they feel that the AP teacher is terrible, drop the AP course and and have the teacher teach another course in their license area (english). If the school has another English teacher qualified to teach the AP course, that teacher can teach the course again, as long as it is in their license area. No one has a lock on teaching any course. For example, just because you have been teaching AP english your whole career and now you school needs you teachfreshman english, as long as you are still teaching in your license area, you must teach the class.</p>
<p>If the teacher is so terrible, I think the kids would have heard about it from her students long before the administrator said anything. And that does seem weird and unprofessional from the administration. But I do think tenure prevents teachers from being fired just for being bad. I can think of two bad teachers in my high school who I learned were fired years later. Both had been teaching for over 20 years. I think the administration was just waiting for them to do something actionable. One of them made “inappropriate comments” to a female student, I think regarding how she was conducting her personal life.</p>
<p>Do I understand that there are still students taking this class, just not the top 5 who were approached by the administrator? Does your school weight GPAs for AP and honors classes? I would think that the top 5 standing might change if other students take an additional AP class and therefore amass higher weighted GPAs. I don’t know how much leeway there is in a guidance counselor’s assessment of what constitutes the most rigorous curriculum. If Johnny takes 6 APs but Susie takes 7, and all other factors are equal, wouldn’t Susie have the more rigorous curriculum?</p>
<p>I know that APs have become a check-off item, but they are supposed to prepare students for doing college-level work (well, they’re actually supposed to be college-level work, though I understand that many are not). My own kids had exceptional AP English teachers, and the class made a huge difference in their writing and analysis of literature skills. A truly poor teacher could do more harm than good, but what a shame to lose an opportunity to preview what’s expected of students in college English classes. (And I agree that the administrator was way out of line!)</p>
<p>Also it depends on what your child wants to major in. My DD wants something sciency, so she will be taking AP Bio, AP Calc, AP Psychology. She is choosing not to take AP English.</p>
<p>I’d do some investigating about how terrible the AP English teacher is, but if the teacher is terrible I wouldn’t take the class. Our AP English teacher was okay, but my kids did not like her approach or workload and both opted not to take AP English. My oldest (top 2% rank, stellar SAT scores) got into Harvard without AP English, but he had 9 APs and was taking Linear Algebra as a senior. Younger son (with top 6% rank, stellar verbal SAT, but not so stellar math) and 7 or 8 APs didn’t get into the most selective schools on his list (Harvard, Georgetown SFS, Brown), but did get into U of Chicago, Tufts and Vassar. </p>
<p>Every admissions officer I’ve heard speak on the subject says they don’t expect you to take every AP offered, but they do expect you to challenge yourself at least in the areas that interest you. It’s partly about context, a school that offers a lot of APs will probably have kids taking more APs than one that offers very few. You do want to take enough so that the GC checks the “rigorous curriculum” box.</p>
<p>I have no regrets for my kids. They both were decent writers and did very well in their freshman writing classes.</p>
<p>I agree with the poster that says as long as your GC is able to say that you are taking the “most rigorous courseload”, she should be fine. I think I read here that there can be diminishing returns on the number of APs taken, in the sense that if you take at least a certain number of APs, you are in good shape for the top schools. Not sure what that number is; maybe someone can weigh in on this theory.</p>
<p>If the teacher is a known nightmare, and your daughter is a STEM girl, I would skip the class. She doesn’t need the unnecessary stress or aggravation. If she is in the top 5 and has lots of other AP’s, I don’t think it will hurt her chances anywhere. Also, if she really wants to take the class, would another option be to take it somewhere in summer or virtually? Best of luck to her! </p>
<p>@TV4Caster - Not sure where your DD is applying but there were kids at my son’s high school that got deferred from an top engineering college. The admissions people actually came to our school to explain to each of them why they were deferred. One of my sons’ friends was told that he was deferred because he was applying to an engineering college and instead of taking the STEM AP’s he had taken the English and History AP’s instead. He did get in regular decision however the message basically was if you are going into STEM make sure and take AP’s that show that. Not sure if other colleges feel the same way but if your DD is taking STEM AP’s then she should be fine.</p>
<p>@billscho, not if the teacher is really that bad. One of my kids had a really terrible English teacher. At the beginning of the year. this teacher sent home a two page informational letter to parents. Many of the teachers in our schools will do that, to introduce themselves, outline curriculum and course expectations, etc. I was shocked because her letter was by far the most poorly written communication I’ve ever received from a teacher. And she is a native speaker, teaching English, not a foreigner teaching STEM, where it might be more understandable. </p>
<p>I told my child “just try not to pick up any of your teacher’s bad English this year”.</p>
Many selective colleges have said the opposite, that students do NOT need to take as many APs as possible. Some example quotes are below:</p>
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<p>Regarding the AP English teacher, it would help to know more detail about how she was a bad teacher. For example, does she not cover course material similar to the AP exam? Are there interpersonal issues with students? Does she grade harshly? This is probably not the first and not the last time the student will have to deal with a bad teacher. Many students can handle a teacher who is poor without major issue. I’ve only had 1 teacher who was poor enough that I’d recommend others to skip the class. It occurred in a Linear Algebra class at SUNYA. What made the teacher so poor is he just didn’t care. This led to the students not caring and nearly everyone in the class not understanding the material. I was 1 of only 3 students in the class who took the final.</p>
<p>One way to tell if the teacher is really bad is to find out what the scores the students that took her class got. Yes there will always be those kids who can get a 5 with a bad teacher however if a teacher is good most if not all the kids should be scoring 4’s and 5’s. Some colleges will give credit for 3’s but certainly not all. So if the students are mostly getting 3’s or lower then there is no reason in taking the class. Your school should be able to tell you what the score breakdown has been for that class.</p>