Not THAT dorm!

<p>Just an aside regarding availability of math courses at LACs and Williams in particular -- Curt McMullen, who is a math professor at Harvard (and quite a good one, I understand), went to Williams. It might be worth asking him whether he felt constrained by the course offerings there. I know he graduated 25 years ago, but still it might be helpful to know what he thought. And perhaps there are younger math professors at some of the bigger schools who could shed some light on how satisfactory they found their undergraduate experiences at LACs were.</p>

<p>
[quote]
According to the college's diversity report published in April of this year - so don't take my word for it, use the college's own data - 58% of white students binge drink; 52% of all students. . . - actual is probably around 20% higher. It is higher for males, and for first years;

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Another correction. This data was part of Williams’ transparent attempt to get a feel of how minority students fare on campus in comparison to white students. This particular portion was meant to compare drinking and varsity sports involvement among racial groups.</p>

<p>The question was: [have you] had five or more drinks on one or more occasion in the past two weeks? To assume automatically that a student who answers yes to this question is a “binge” drinker and to then throw in an additional 20% for good measure is a willful misrepresentation of the facts. The figures for firstyears and males were not included in this report, so that is also supposition.</p>

<p>53% of the 1061 students who participated in this survey admitted to having 5 or more drinks on one occasion, which to my son’s understanding, was defined as over the course of an evening starting late afternoon and ending in the wee hours. Binge drinking, to my mind, is an emotionally freighted term which conjures up horrific images for parents and administrators; the objective and outcome of the survey had nothing to do with the layperson’s definition of bingeing. </p>

<p>Of the 768 white participants in this survey, 49% were varsity athletes. This does not represent the total white population of Williams which is the reason for the discrepancy in figures. I don’t disagree, however, that Williams kids are often involved in a sport or some kind of physical activity. They are active, healthy kids and this is a good thing. </p>

<p>I do disagree that moderate or non-drinkers are rare or that their experience is negatively colored by others’ alcohol abuse.</p>

<p>I’m not much of a drinker myself and I personally would like to see a lot less of it in all aspects of American society. Having said that I am satisfied that my son is not living in a physically or emotionally dangerous environment at Williams.</p>

<p>For sure Williams isn’t for everyone. Some object to the active/sports focus, some to the insular, rural location, some to the weather, some to the size, some to LACs in general. However, if you eliminate Williams prior to even visiting because you fear an abusive alcohol culture you are doing your son or daughter a disservice.</p>

<p>Kat--that kind of schedule is not the norm! our school doesn't go beyond Calc AB, which is what, Calc 101??? Despite ID's comment, I'm assuming a kid from our school could go to Williams and major in math, but your kid is at a different level intirely, and you need to look at those upper upper level courses closely.</p>

<p>Hi Mary,</p>

<p>When I was browsing the Parents Forum this evening and saw the title of your post, my mind immediately went to Northwestern. Perhaps it's because it's the only college I know (I'll be attending Northwestern, along with your daughter, for the first time this fall), perhaps it's because I just got my housing assignment. Perhaps it's because there were definitely a couple dorms that I knew I did not want. </p>

<p>I won't lie. I didn't want to live in Bobb or McCulloch despite the fact that one of my closest friends from high school will be living in McCulloch. Part of this reason was because of what I read in the DTECS. I'm going to be on South Campus. But that's enough for biographical information.</p>

<p>When I visited Northwestern last spring, I really did not get the impression that Northwestern revolves around its drinking culture. One of the other prefrosh I was hanging out with walked up to a group of current students and asked "Where do we go to have fun?" Their exact words were "I think you're at the wrong school." Now, Northwestern isn't full of eccentrics like those at UChicago, but at the same time, it doesn't have a bunch of drunken fools like those at UColorado. </p>

<p>Sure Bobb and McCulloch are known to be the party dorms, but that doesn't mean that you won't find students who want to have a good time but also know when to draw their limits. I understand why you're concerned for your daughter, but I am confident she'll be fine--either she'll transfer out of it and into a more preferable dorm after deciding that MC is not for her or, more likely, she'll find her niche inside the dorm and enjoy what it has to offer. </p>

<p>Northwestern is known to be one of the United States' most academically rigorous schools for a reason. If your daughter were going to Colorado or Illinois or Arizona (no offense to the students at these schools), then there would be cause for concern. But be sure to take solace in the fact that write next door to Bobb and McCulloch, there's Slivka and Ayers and a buncha other dorms in which you'll find a fun atmosphere without the vomit in the sinks. Luckily, your daughter will get to experience a new culture and whether she wishes to take advantage of that is up to her after she takes it all in. Best of luck to your daughter and I look forward to meeting her :)</p>

<p>katwkittens:</p>

<p>There is a very simple way to get the answer to your questions.</p>

<p>Have your son e-mail the chair of the math department at each of the colleges and universities he is considering (August - Sept is a great time to do this).</p>

<p>In the e-mail, outline the courses he has completed. Ask the chair of the department for a sample course of study -- i.e. which courses he would place out of at that school and how his program would progress. Any decent department chair will gladly take the time to outline a sample four year program.</p>

<p>As for LACs, they account for thirteen of the top 25 undergrad schools in the country in math PhDs per graduate. Six of the schools are tech schools (CalTech, MIT, etc.). Six are all-purpose universities.</p>

<p>I also second e-mailing department heads. Some LACs didn't offer enough in math or physics specialties. At a school like Caltech, no end in sight for classes and research, and minimal drinking.</p>

<p>"The question was: [have you] had five or more drinks on one or more occasion in the past two weeks? To assume automatically that a student who answers yes to this question is a “binge” drinker and to then throw in an additional 20% for good measure is a willful misrepresentation of the facts. The figures for firstyears and males were not included in this report, so that is also supposition."</p>

<p>First of all, no willful misrepresentation, because there was no misrepresentation. The "binge drinking" definition doesn't come from me. (Hey, I'm a cheap date, and don't get past two myself.) If you went through the posts, you'll see that I added the 20% supposition first to SWARTHMORE. And it is based on what I know, professionally, from what the research scientists have been consistently finding in their work - namely, that students underestimate (by an average of 1 the number of drinks, and underestimate the size of drinks by 1.75/1. The research also indicates that the number of folks who do this level of drinking only once in two weeks is relatively rare. The same would hold true for Swarthmore or Northwestern. Current surveys don't go any further than this, though there are some sub-studies about the nights students do their drinking, which is why I urge potential students for whom this is a concern (and for most it is not) to visit on Thursday nights.</p>

<p>The 58% of white students who binge drink was reduced, using Williams own data, to 52% overall, given the proportionality of binge drinkers within minority groups, and their percentage within the total student population. The point about males and first-years again comes from consistent findings in the national data. The main presumption I DID make was that 25% of Williams students (range 20-30%) are abstainers. You can do the math yourself. 52% plus 25% = 77%, leaving a maximum of 23% "moderate drinkers" within the student population. Among white students, fewer. (The reason I make a point about race is that, on most campuses, it is white students, especially white males, who set the pattern for campus culture.)</p>

<p>I know for certain (because I get data for other campuses in Washington State, and selectively elsewhere) that Williams - as I said twice previously - is in no way unique. It is substantially higher than the national average, but that is also true of hundreds of schools.</p>

<p>The math department at Williams is reputed to be the best among the LACs, as are the astronomy/astrophysics and of course the incomparable art history departments. Its music department is terrific as well. The natural beauty is striking, the resources of the college massive, the faculty great, the opportunities endless. It is also a fantastic place for a scholar-athlete. Alcohol is a mote that Williams has been quite open about, that the President and trustees are wrestling with, and that I am sure, over time, they will figure out how to deal with. I don't know of a single college without its own motes, (sometimes hugh scars!), which is why I think cc is so helpful to folks. Some of these motes one can live with, and some one cannot. It depends on the individual. 57% of Williams students said they would definitely choose Williams again if given the option, and that's a tribute to how much students like the school, motes and all. </p>

<p>Meanwhile, the poster's questions were about Northwestern. I have no data, other than Wechsler's on groupings, which suggest that there is a lot of bingeing on the campus. The anecdotal data in the initial post seems to support that view. It is, however, also a large campus, with lots of subgroups and housing options, which would likely mitigate the existing drinking culture if you found a way to avoid it.</p>

<p>Mary,
Not sure what I can add to the party dorm discussion, other than to share your concern. My oldest son will be a freshman at Williams this fall, and dare I say, he is one of those much maligned varsity athletes. (Can I add that he's a 'closet geek' with high SAT I&II scores, including a couple of 800's - not bragging, just trying to dispel some of the 'dumb jock' myths.) I have followed the endless debates on Williams and athletes and drinking culture that abound on CC, and worry about how he will adjust, organize his time, and socialize. But I have to believe that most students at selective schools like Williams and Northwestern have had to work hard to get there. And freshman year will surely have it's ups and downs, and that may involve learning how to navigate the new freedoms and social life in a residential college. </p>

<p>Kat,
And just a note about math and Williams. My son just got his dorm and roommates this week. He googled the names and one of his suitemates is an extremely gifted mathematician - only perfect scorer in the country on AIME, International Olympiad prize winner, etc. I don't think someone at his level would be coming to Williams to study math if he were going to run out of higher-level courses. My son won't be a math major, but is taking a math course this fall based on the teaching reputation of the math department - they're supposed to make math lectures fun(?). Hope that helps.</p>

<p>I do not have much to offer the OP. A friend's freshman D was placed in a similar dorm at Madison(they didn't realize the reputation ahead of time). She was not very happy, but eventually found a group of friends from her academic classes. They will be moving into a different dorm next year. It was not a great start, but it worked out. The link in the OP was very interesting. Do other schools have similar sites with dorm reviews? My D is interested in NU for music as well as several large state universities. I know binge drinking, partying will be everywhere she is looking, but it would be nice to read reviews of dorms. She hopes to spend the night at several schools, but with auditions, lessons etc don't know if there will be time.</p>

<p>Thanks to all who gave such excellent input. I've calmed down since my first post; D has been in touch with her roommate and others in the dorm and discovered that someone she roomed with at a summer camp will be in the same dorm. She doesn't leave for move than a month (They sure start late!) so she'll likely have "met" many others by then.</p>

<p>epk3102 - I hope there is a high percentage of incoming freshman who are as mature as you seem to be. Thanks for taking the time to write. I'm becoming more and more confident that she'll find her niche, as you suggested, and that she'll be very happy there - even if she's in a dorm that doesn't seem to suit her. I hope you two run into each other.</p>