<p>Marite:
Son visited H for the Quest program in 2004 but ended up at Duke instead that summer. His older sis had gone up with us, she is the one who graduated this year and she "intensely disliked" H which colored his perception dramatically. Now that she is leaving to the other side of the country he is free to make his own decisions.</p>
<p>You mentioned the math issue for your younger son. DS#2 will have completed Calc III/IV (multi/difeq) and then something else (I don't have a clue) by the end of this spring. Would that be a problem at an LAC? He is not concerned about the isolated/cold, but a big party atmosphere would really annoy him. His words, not mine.</p>
<p>To add to the stress he has received LOA's (letters of assurance) from the service acadamies. He passed the medical test and he is pilot qualified. But I don't, and neither does he, know if there are major drinking issues there either.</p>
<p>I will mention to him about going to H again. I think he is much more receptive now.</p>
<p>I can understand the original OP's worry about the dorm for her daughter. I would feel the same way. DD#2 was assigned to the scholar's wing which has stringent drinking/smoking requirements. Her brothers have stated that she would have been happy in a convent!!!</p>
<p>I do feel bad for her roomate already. She is the BIGGEST nag and stickler for every rule and regulation. She has 6 am morning practice daily with a 6pm second practice. So lights will be out early in her room. She requested a single but she was low on the priority list as an incoming freshman. Her coach placed her on the athlete list but her scholarship status placed her into the honors wing. </p>
<p>We will see how it goes. Her coach wants to move her with another athlete that has her same practice schedule. Her brother's D3 coach had a lot more say with residence life administration than her D1 coach!</p>
<p>Kat - the service academies have problems and challenges, but plebes passing out and puking on the hallways by the dozens from drinking, is NOT one of them. Not that some celebrating doesn't occur, but like everything else in a cadet's life there is some external control, particularly the first year.</p>
<p>Williams takes a lot of heat on this forum, and I'm sure there is more drinking there than at some other schools, but there probably less use of other substances at Williams - and you can't have such a successful athletic program if everyone is drunk all the time. I would say he needs to look for himself, with assessing that aspect of campus life as a priority. I know from a few things you have said that he is going to be a hot property, he will be able to choose, and needs to develop clear ideas of what he wants - good luck.</p>
<p>"Mini- is there a "party" atmosphere at Williams? He was interested in their academics, mathematics, economics, history, maybe physics. He is a pretty disciplined athlete, trains daily 6-8 miles, lifting and reads constantly. He spent this summer and last doing cancer research at Duke's and UNC Schools of Medicine. We thought Williams would offer the academics he was looking for with a smaller school feel." </p>
<p>It has excellent academics, superb athletics, great facilities, wonderful professors, lots of internship opportunities, and very bright (mostly well-heeled) students. According to the college's diversity report published in April of this year - so don't take my word for it, use the college's own data - 58% of white students binge drink; 52% of all students. This is the uncorrected number (as per previous posts) - actual is probably around 20% higher. It is higher for males, and for first years; much, much lower for African-Americans (around half). If you look at those numbers, and then assume a normal quotient of total abstainers, you pretty much find that there are no (or very few) moderate drinkers. Whether this is excessive drinking, you can decide for yourself. Best thing to do is to do an overnight on a Thursday night.</p>
<p>49% of white students are varsity athletes. It is higher among males. This does not include junior varsity, intercollege club sports, or intramurals.</p>
<p>As noted, Williams is not in any way unique in this regard. There are probably a couple of hundred colleges and universities in similar territory. But it is, statitiscally, well above the national average in this regard, and the College Pres is very concerned. You can check out the Williams Record for further information, or the college's diversity report, or ask for data related to emergency room stays or overnights in the campus infirmary related to alcohol poisoning (though the latter is now closed for overnights due to liability concerns from same.)</p>
<p>I agree that an overnight is the best way to get a feel for Williams. My daughter thought seriously about applying ED a few years ago, but she really did get a sense on her overnite that the drinking/jock culture there was not for her.</p>
<p>Kat,
It would truly be a shame if Mini's irresponsible hyperbole caused yet another family to scratch Williams College from their list of prospective schools. I've linked below to one of the many earlier threads illustrating this strange obsession (which he shares with InterestedDad) with emphasizing and exaggerating drinking at Williams, and gives you some idea of where this malignant tag team of doomsayers is coming from. It's become quite tedious to respond to this pair of one-note johnnies, but I've received enough private thank-you messages from lurkers or others who, like you, were on the verge of writing Williams off--on the say-so of a pair of paleo-alumni who by their own admission didn't fit in when they were there, and apparently have never gotten over it--that I feel obliged to continue. </p>
<p>We're talking late 60s and early 70s grads, who are peripherally involved alumni at best. Mini lives 3000 miles away, never visits, but seems to enjoy the aura of expertise he creates by posting clips from the Williams web site and the pseudo-study by a discredited researcher made famous on Good Morning America and the like many years ago. ID is the well-known purveyor of factoids told to him by his daughter, who heard from a high school friend, that "drinking is crazy there." Crazy in what way? Well, he doesn't know. </p>
<p>Mini takes special delight in posting and reposting an article in the Record from several years ago on the news that someone had smeared feces on the wall of the field house. Undeniably gross, but of course, we have no idea who did it. Many many athletes come the the Williams field house, and most of them go down in defeat. Might not it have been one of them? Or even one of the townies who frequent the campus parties? Of course it could, but in the mind of Mini, feces-smearing could only come at the hands of a drunken Williams athlete. I will say this, about the feces-smearing though: It's an apt metaphor for what these two do every time someone tries to get a straight answer about current life at Williams. I would recommend that you pay substantially more attention to the current Williams students and parents, and recent alumni who frequently post here. </p>
<p>Visit, read the college's own data (they are very brave to publish it, and I wish other schools would as well), read the students' own accounts, ask questions, and come to your own conclusions. And this would be true of any school in which you are interested.</p>
<p>
[quote]
49% of white students are varsity athletes. It is higher among males. This does not include junior varsity, intercollege club sports, or intramurals.
[/quote]
Another correction: The actual total percentage of varsity athletes is 34%, further elaborated upon by the College Public Affairs folks, below:
[quote]
Approximately 40 percent of all students participate in intercollegiate sports (34 percent at the varsity level). There are 32 varsity intercollegiate teams (16 men's and 16 women's), 16 JV teams (8 men's and 8 women's), 8 club sport teams, and 11 intramural sports.Compiled by:
Office of Public Affairs
Williams College
P.O. Box 676
Williamstown, MA 01267
(413) 597-4277
<a href="mailto:news@williams.edu">news@williams.edu</a>
[/quote]
</p>
<p>About 40% of white students are varsity athletes, using this data: <a href="http://www.williams.edu/go/alumdiversity/ss_table10%5B/url%5D">http://www.williams.edu/go/alumdiversity/ss_table10</a> (I hope this will accessible by non-Williams families). What it shows is that men comprise 49% of the student body (49% of 1,992 students). It then shows that white students make up 86% of the 648 varsity athletes at the college. Nothing about 49% of white students being varsity athletes,</p>
<p>As non-drinker, my husband developed a somewhat philosophical approach to drinking classmates, possibly because he does have strong stomach. </p>
<p>To the OP, I would be concerned too. However, it is possible to change living situations if things don't shake out well (and remember - it will probably be just fine). Maybe talking with your D about being her own advocate at school in general might be a good thing.</p>
<p>
[quote]
ou mentioned the math issue for your younger son. DS#2 will have completed Calc III/IV (multi/difeq) and then something else (I don't have a clue) by the end of this spring. Would that be a problem at an LAC?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>No. That would not be a problem at any of the top LACs. In fact, most of them have routine placement out of all the Calc stages.</p>
<p>Marite's son was a special case. He had been taking advanced college level math courses for several years. Far beyond the college level basic calc and linear algebra courses. Basically, he was going to run out of college level courses in very short order and need to begin taking grad school level math courses. These types of "protege-level" students need the presence of grad-school curriculum that can only exist in a university setting and, therefore, LACs are probably not the right choice.</p>
<p>However, we are talking about exceptionally advanced students. Very few college math majors would "run out of courses" at a top LAC. It would take a lot more than completing the calc progression and linear algebra in high school. In fact, I would guess that the majority of math majors at a top LAC have completed all the calc in high school.</p>
<p>Interestdad, you are assuming that all math majors have the same interests. There are many, many kids with an interest in either a specific branch of highly theoretical math, or broader interests in applied math, who would not be well served at an LAC. Regardless of how much math they've done by the time they get to HS, many smaller schools don't have enough faculty (or the one you want to study with turns out to be on sabbatical or maternity leave your senior year) to make the math/LAC major a slam dunk for a kid who is oriented that way.</p>
<p>Do all LAC's have enough math for a kid who needs to fulfill premed? Absolutely. But for a math major? I wouldn't go telling a stranger not to worry about it... they need to explore the departmental offerings at every LAC they're interested in. The teaching faculty gets pretty thin at some small schools once you're past the first and second year sequence.</p>
<p>Blossom makes a good point. One of my kids fell in love with an LAC but ultimately didn't apply for this reason, and he had only completed AP Calculus AB by the end of high school. He went to Stanford where he ended up taking graduate level math classes by the end of sophomore year. This allowed him to "co-term" -- work toward the B.S. alongside the M.S. and by the time he graduated after 5 years, he'd knocked off several Ph.D. level math classes which actually become significant factors to his eventual employer. The B.S. was math-related and the M.S. was financial math. None of this would have been possible at the LAC's he looked at. Outside of math and math-related subjects, he's rather a normal student, nothing special really. He wouldn't have been as well served at a LAC as he was at a larger school.</p>
<p>I should think that as a student puts a school onto their list for application that they would have investigated the course cataloge, spoken with the dept. to determine frequency of offerings. As we all know listing a course and offering a course are not the same thing. For students who are math prodigies....this is all old turf. Most of these students have already taken college course work and do have a definite interest.....all one needs is a postdoc math instructor. Any given student doesn't need the course. Independent study with an instructor would do it. ALL of the students from my HS who fit the qualifications of "high level math" knew exactly what departments they were going to because they had already worked with faculty in other programs and had met with them prior to any applications being submitted.</p>
<p>I was answering a very specific question (would taking all of the calc progression and LA in high school automatically rule out LACs?)</p>
<p>I was also answering the question for a specfic group of LACs -- the top LACs (a group that includes Williams).</p>
<p>Placing out of these typical freshmen level math courses is so common at top LACs that it's often a standard policy outlined in the department course of study. Not a rare occurrence at all.</p>
<p>Obviously, a student who has a well-developed interest in a very narrow sub-field is a good candidate for choosing a university over an LAC. But, that is a different issue.</p>
<p>Thank you to Marite and Blossom for pointing me in the right direction regarding the math stuff. Looked at the Williams website, specifically the course catalog for the requirements for a math major at Williams.</p>
<p>Nine courses are required for the major. According to the website he will have completed 5 of the 9 BEFORE entering Williams. The four remaining are offered at alternate years.</p>
<p>I think interesteddad maybe have been referring to testing out of 103/104 by receiving a 4 or 5 on the AP BC calculus test versus a 1 or 2 on the AP AB exam. Son has placed out of that now with 5/5, and will have completed 103/104/106/209/211/stats231. So he would be left with 2 core courses and 2 electives.</p>
<p>Thanks again everyone for pointing us in the right direction. We have always just checked to see if they had majors he was inteested in versus what the actual course requirements were. Big, big difference.</p>
<p>Maybe we live in an area where math isn't that big of a deal in high school. We are in one of the largest districts (student-population) and he was one of maybe 5 taking that much math. Which is why I was taken back by interesteddad's comment that:</p>
<p>"Placing out of these typical freshmen level math courses is so common at top LACs that it's often a standard policy outlined in the department course of study. Not a rare occurrence at all."</p>
<p>Williams has a policy for 103/104 but that's it. I guess I just didn't know that it was such a common occurence to place out of four or more.</p>
<p>Thanks again everyone for all the info. We will defintely use it!!!</p>
<p>Just keep in mind that requirements are the minimal requirements. Students can always take more and more advanced courses. These can be lots more fun! But, hey, if he wants to join my S here, send him over!</p>
<p>Most students I know, NON math majors that is, don't take any math in college because they passed out or had advanced credits. They then take more courses of interest of higher level courses in their interest. This same discussion regards language also....most have tested out of multiple languages. I am glad the discussions here have helped some folks to look into the course offerings and scheduling.....some courses are offered only every 3 years or if the instructor is available.</p>
<p>Kat- glad you found the info helpful. Williams is obviously a fine school, as are the other places Interestdad is referring to, but having had a math kid myself, we were happy when he concluded that large U was the way to go... the smaller schools were falling over themselves trying to make the departments seem bigger than they were, and the lack of grad students as mentors or even friends was problematic to our son. He would not have been interested in a place where theoretically he'd have completed 5 out of 9 requirements for a major in HS, even if there were plenty of electives left.</p>
<p>The issue of professors not being there is a real one if they teach a course you're interested in.... so critical mass in a department is important.</p>