<p>Actually, my D's GC at Interlochen hardly helped her at all. He told her how pleased he was that she took care of everything on her own, and he put the stuff in the mail. He had his hands full with less organized kids. She was very good at organizing the process and only freaked out when she had multiple audition trips and was missing class and getting behind. She got in to college because she is a gifted singer and had top grades, SATs, APs etc. On the other hand, the GCs at my son's school seem to be amazing. They are like "agents" for the kids and DO have important contacts through the northeast. Thank God.<br>
Karen</p>
<p>Karen,
It may be, then, that your daughter is also getting lots of good info from the other students at her school, since it's an arts school. The self select in getting into such a school may also mean that the students are more knowledgeable and organized than they would be at most schools.</p>
<p>I went to an Ivy, and in general my friends and I figured out the grad/professional school process without having to run to the graduate placement office the way that I saw students doing at the third tier college where I used to teach. We didn't need to have staff tell us how to do our resumes or remind us to take the GREs, LSATs, etc. the way that students needed at a university where few students were going to grad or professional school.</p>
<p>The "Panicked Parents Guide to College Admissions" is published by Peterson's and you have to dig to the inside title page to find that the author is CC's very own Sally Rubenstone (one of the owners of CC) along with Sidonia Dalby. Sally is a former admissions officer at Smith but, as this book annoyingly has no author's blurbs--it seems as if Petersons would prefer that there <em>be</em> no authors at all--I don't know about Dalby. (I think it's listed under Petersons on bookstore databases.)</p>
<p>It's not a bad tour d'horizon of admissions but by the time I got it I had spent a year here on CC and knew about most things in greater depth than the book could cover. Plus <cough> Sally was kind enough to let me pick her brain about Smith and in the process she dealt with at least half of my neurotic assumptions. </cough></p>
<p>Roby and IDad have it right: there are lots of variables and some suggestions about parental non-involvement are clearly implausible. </p>
<p>I have seen some parents post on CC who I would personally consider to be "over-involved" but I know that some posters considered the same of me.</p>
<p>Things that I see in-bounds for parents: </p>
<p>1) Clerical/administrative. In my D's case, she hand wrote out her applications and I transcribed them on-line. She proofed. I did not re-write. I did copy edit for spelling and punctuation, calling them to her attention during her proofing run. On her essays, I queried 3-4 word choices and on early drafts engaged in dialogues about structure and what she was trying to accomplish. In some cases I called the colleges with queries...time zones and schedule made it problematic for her; in some cases, the question was as a nature where I insisted that she make the call, which required her to be up and coherent even earlier than usual. (Like myself, D is not a morning person and getting up at 6am after staying up with homework until 12:30 or 1:00am takes a toll.)</p>
<p>2) Finances. Laid out what we could do but what her long-term financial burdens would be. Wrote all the application checks (duh).</p>
<p>3) Arranged itinerary for college trips. She ID'd the colleges, I did the logistics. Duh again...I'm the one with the credit card and the time to deal with airline schedules, hotel reservations, etc. She e-mailed the profs, students, etc. that she was to meet on the trip...I e-mailed FinAid when necessary.</p>
<p>4) Sounding board on trips. Sometimes we sat together for info sessions, sometimes not. Sometimes she asked questions, sometimes I asked different questions. (I got applause from audience and a hard duck from the Harvard admissions officer when I probed for admissions rates for non-athletes, non-legacy, non-URM students...something I wouldn't have thought to have asked before spending months on CC.) </p>
<p>More importantly, it was very useful having three sets of eyes/ears on a trip. "Did you see...?" or "Did you hear when...?", all cross-referencing impressions in a debriefing over a meal afterwards when everything was still fresh. This part of it was very collaborative...I saw some parent/student combos that were clearly adversarial, like the student with crossed arms at NYU whose father was asking all the questions or my D's favorite, the Jewish mom at Georgetown expressing dismay at the crucifixes in the classrooms and her daughter saying, "Shut up, mother, I'm going here...not you."</p>
<p>There were two points in the process where I exerted pressure. First, on getting the frigging essays <em>done</em>. I don't think I could think of an issue in 17 years of parenting that raised the household temperature more. Six weeks went by with nil being accomplished...turns out D didn't have a clue about a couple of different issues and didn't want to ask...a 10-minute discussion when she finally did uncorked a logjam that I reallly wish had been uncorked earlier. (Can dissect my part in this: my efforts were to get them done, staying out of the doing and bending over backwards from saying "What's the problem?") Second part was to have some sort of ranking among the colleges applied to: I've seen too many clients dither when confronting more than three choices and tried to get D to at least come up with her top three...without success. Closest she got was Yale over Harvard and Stanford for EA, Skidmore was the Safety. Where H & S were relative to each other and to Smith, Wellesley, and Barnard I hadn't a clue...but more to the point, I don't think she did either. With rejections from H & S, the job got a lot easier but if she had been accepted into either one, I think she might have been in a horrible panic come April: she could give pros and cons for each but couldn't bring herself to rank in any way.</p>
<p>Interesting thread; I have been wondering if it is possible for parents to have some legitimate way of being part of the application process. To be sure, this has inherent obvious difficulties and yet parents might be able to provide important gloss otherwise missing from the application. For example; how can the normal application convey my insistance kids are forced to grow up too fast so I have not pushed my d to spend 23 hrs. a day in EC activities? Or, how can it be explained that I never let my d opt out of PE classes or a tough situation even though the GPA may take a hit. Or that I never let my d take a job outside of babysitting, because I have always felt it is my responsibility to support the family and there would be time enough to work full time in the future. Maybe I should suggest my d write a third essay; titled something like: "You would have to know my dad!"</p>
<p>About the advantages of elite boarding schools:</p>
<p>On the Interlochen website are remarks made by college admissions directors at the school's annual roundtable discussion:</p>
<p>Jo Faulmann Assistant Dean, Undergraduate Studies, University of Miami School of Music</p>
<p>One of the things that I think sets Interlochen apart is that all the performing arts schools know the counseling staff, we know the admissions staff, we know the faculty, so we all feel very free to pick up the phone and talk to one another in a very candid fashion. We share a lot, we visit with these people, we all come for the performing arts fair, many of us come for audition tours and visit the school and get to know the people here. I think its a very unusual relationship.</p>
<hr>
<p>I can assure you that the adcoms at the colleges on my daughter's list didn't know anyone on the guidance staff or faculty at my daughter's school. As far as I can tell, nobody from my daughter's high school had ever applied to Swarthmore before. I don't believe that my daughter's guidance counselor even knew where Swarthmore is located. She did a fine job organizing and mailing transcripts, for which I personally visited her office and thanked her -- of course, my daughter also gave her stamped addressed envelops in the Guidance office starting in October. My daughter's assessment of the counseling was, "they are pretty good at helping kids applying to UMass and Northeastern."</p>
<p>I would guess that in schools with very active college counseling programs, such as the elite private schools or specialty schools there is GC assistance on 2 levels. There is the "in front of the scenes" help, which Karen's daughter seemed to have not needed- but some kids do/will. Then there is the "behind the scenes help" as alluded to in Interesteddad's post....possibly more kids get this sort of help than are aware of it, and most parents assume this sort of help is given. Just a guess.</p>
<p>Here's one parent you will never hear apologize for assisting my D in her college app. efforts. We're a team: she leads, I follow. She asks for advice on certain things; I give her my best input, based on what ADULTS look for (i.e., admissions officers) in applicants. (She wouldn't know that, now, would she?) I did research for her for 2 years, supplying her with info on various colleges -- their curriculum, their size, etc. She did additional, different but complementary, research. She wrote her own essays, asking my opinion on them; I suggested extremely few changes: those were minor, & were suggested for the purposes of clarifying a point in the essay or using a more apt word, etc. Some suggestions she accepted; some she didn't. Even those that she did accept, she worded the change based on her choices. I proposed a format for her attachments; she edited those, too. She filled out all her own forms, chose all her own colleges, but this was definitely a collaborative effort. Folks, she just got admitted early to the Ivy of her choice, with zero hooks. We also have zero influence back east, being from the west coast. (Our GC is not an east-coast insider, trust me.) </p>
<p>I rest my case. Ms. Sanchez lives in a parallel universe not near mine.</p>
<p>There are some great posts here! TheDad, I empathize with the problem of getting your daughter to rank. You had more success than I did in that area, since I got absolutely nowhere. For the most part, I think my daughter enjoyed our working on the application process together. We've certainly worn out our Fiske guide rereading and rereading descriptions to each other. I suppose I applied some pressure in sort of insisting that she keep an open mind about women's colleges, though I never would have insisted she attend one if, after talking to ad coms at college fairs and visiting, she decided that they weren't for her. I just wanted her to keep her options open and not dismiss a whole kind of college out of hand.</p>
<p>And now that we're done with the process, her friends are asking her to ask me for suggestions where to apply to. I considered putting a smiley after that sentence, but not when they're asking that at the end of December!</p>
<p>Thanks so much for posting (this and all your other posts!). </p>
<p>My only comment about the mom who was dismayed at the crucifixes at Georgetown ---- uh, how much homework did this woman do? Here's a mom who clearly wasn't involved ENOUGH! Georgetown is an <strong>explicitly</strong> Catholic, Jesuit university whose religious identity is clear everywhere, starting at their homepage!</p>
<p>Actually, nedad, I think that they put those crucifixes in relatively recently. I can't recall the exact year, but I remember reading about it in the Washington Post. Of coures "relatively recently" to me could be any time in the last 15 years...</p>
<p>Epiphany </p>
<p>"I rest my case. Ms. Sanchez lives in a parallel universe not near mine."</p>
<p>I may quote you on this - and welcome to the board!</p>
<p>TheDad,
We (our family - this is a team effort) are at the completing the applications part, and your post about finishing the essays made me smile. My son is working on his UChicago essay - it is a bear, it is hard to get started - but a deadline is a deadline!</p>
<br>
<blockquote> <p>I just wanted her to keep her options open and not dismiss a whole kind of college out of hand.</p> </blockquote>
<br>
<p>I played devil's advocate a lot. For example, regulars here may be surprised to learn that I was the cheerleader for large state universities, right up to the point we returned from visits to UNC-CH and UVa and may daughter said, "They are just too big for me". I had accomplished my goal, which was getting her to give every type of school a fair shake and make informed choices.</p>
<p>We worked hard to make sure that d. DIDN'T rank, at least before the offers came. We knew that financial aid would be a huge part of the process, especially as her likely career path is extremely low-income and uncertain. We also tried to unwrap the names of the schools from their offerings and faculty, and made a point of having her engage faculty she wanted to work with at each of the schools, since the success or failure of where she thinks she is headed has everything to do with good mentoring (and much less to do with the name of the school.)</p>
<p>There were schools that went from reasonable options to not worth applying to based on her visits and interactions (Harvard and Amherst), one school that went from near the top of the list to close to the bottom on the basis of an overnight (Williams), one school that zoomed up the list (Scripps), and one school that made its appearance late and sold itself on the visit and meeting with virtually the entire departmental faculty (Smith). The reality is that any of these and likely 20 other schools would have been just fine.</p>
<p>Searchingavalon, I took the ignorance reflected by the dismay to be more broadly based - I was not referring to the crucifixes per se, but the fact that anyone who knew anything whatsoever about a Jesuit school would be surprised to see <strong>evidence</strong> that it was a Catholic school!</p>
<p>As for this: LOL!
"Of course 'relatively recently to me could be any time in the last 15 years..."</p>
<p>Where my D did get tremendous help at Interlochen was from her voice teacher. He recommended schools for her and was the one who steered her to Rice. He knew the mezzo teacher at Rice very well and knew my D would be a good fit. That rec, the audition and Interlochen's reputation all were key. The other great thing about Interlochen was that the academics were tops. We were afraid academics would be much below the private school D attended in Dallas, but they were almost as good. Not all the Interlochen kids take advantage of them, especially if they are shooting for a conservatory. Karen</p>
<p>"I have been wondering if it is possible for parents to have some legitimate way of being part of the application process. "</p>
<p>Of course parents do this -- by being good parents. Good parents notice their kids natural interests and skills, and encourage kids to participate in and to create organizations that further these interests and skills. Parents don't do this to create wonderful resumes for kids' college applications, but to help kids be the must fulfilled "themselves" that they are capable of being. </p>
<p>Good parents don't let kids spend their time over the summer and on weekends just sitting around playing video games or wandering the malls. Yes, every human being deserves some R&R time. However, no one needs 24/7 of such time. </p>
<p>Young people need to develop some productive hobbies, learn a work ethic, explore the world in some kind of thoughtful way, develop skills that will help them figure out their career path, devote some time to paying the "rent" by doing community service. IMO, the best parents help kids do this.</p>
<p>The best parents also think about what their offspring will do as adults, and the parents realize that making decisions about what to do after h.s. is not something that their offspring can suddenly do senior year unless there has been good groundwork laid for this.</p>
<p>Long before senior year, the parent should be helping the student identify what's important to them in terms of values, interest, and what post h.s. path would make sense. Thus, if college is the path, then the parent should be helping the student figure out which college would best meet the student's academic, emotional and other needs. Far better to do this than to willy-nilly decide that a student should go to the college that is highest on the US News list.</p>
<p>This is all a collaborative, longterm process.</p>
<p>(Disclaimer: I'm sure there are parents here more educated and involved in the process than mine were, and that's terrific. I'm just sharing my experience and thoughts)</p>
<p>Personally, I would have hated parental involvement in my college application process. </p>
<p>My parents' sole contribution was their credit card and tax forms. I did my own research, chose my own colleges, filled out my own applications and financial aid forms, set up my own interviews, wrote and revised my own essays, etc. They haven't even seen any of the 4 college essays that got me into Princeton. In fact, I didn't even tell them which colleges I was applying to until the applications were sent. </p>
<p>I wouldn't have it any other way. I knew that there are just some things in life that I would have to do by myself; that, in a couple years, there would be nobody out there "holding my hand" and helping me with my decisions in life. </p>
<p>There are times one needs to let go. I'm glad my parents realized that.</p>
<p>Northstarmom, at the risk of sounding AOL-ish, I almost posted here a nearly content-free message to thank you for your post and to agree with you 100%. But I think I'll add some actual content. :-)</p>
<p>My older S finished all his RD apps before we left to visit his grandparents for the holidays. Our involvement, other than doing all that you suggest to enable him to find and follow his passions the past few years, was to listen as he talked about what he thought he wanted in a school and steer him to sources of info on schools that might meet those criteria, to help set up and go with him on the two visits we took last spring (one to the CA schools, one to the northeast), and to read his essays <em>after</em> he had sent them out. (He did not request input.) Oh yeah, and paying the application fees and giving him an accordian folder with calendar so he could organize his materials and plan for important dates. He is waiting for RDs before choosing between his EA school and any others (my prediction: he'll get to choose between his EA school and almost <em>all</em> of the others), so I think our next involvement will be to suggest he make a list of the things he most wants, then a list of the pros/cons of each school and how well it matches his dreams. I will encourage him to take one evening to dream about each of the schools where he is accepted, imagining himself living and studying at them, and see how he feels in the morning.</p>
<p>Family guidance and support, which is what that collaborative process is all about. I don't feel we've been too directive, nor too hands-off: he clearly knew we were interested and available the whole time. But any more involvement than that, and I would have felt we were taking over from him what should mostly be his process. The whole point is, I think, to get the student intimately involved in the process that will lead to their decision. From what I've seen, they benefit from going through it with a safety net, but without a spotter hovering nearby. YMMV.</p>
<p>BY THE WAY: Claudio Sanchez (who did the original NPR piece) is a man.</p>
<p>(PS: Right on, Schwaby! Your post came while I was composing mine. I am certain my S feels exactly the way you do.)</p>
<p>NEDad, I suspected that the mom knew it was Catholic but just thought it was <em>too</em> Catholic. G'town is pretty ecumenical in its approach, both by founding statement and by current execution. And it seems to have a pretty active Hillel, fwiw. </p>
<p>Mini, regarding rankings, we determined what was or wasn't a financial possibility before the application process started. It's a bit unnerving because we are not wealthy and, being self-employed on the scale I am is a bit like being a trapeze artist--you let go of one client/transaction and go flying through the darkness serene in the belief that another will appear and sometimes go for as long six months without anything happening, such is life in Los Angeles-area real estate. (And then there are months where I've closed four transactions in a month.) I've long since learned to sleep with the insecurity but it makes planning for tuition payments to be the devil.</p>
<p>My parental strategy for getting my child to get the college essays done early:</p>
<p>At a College Night meeting at the high school during junior year, the counselors told the parents that the college app process can take as much time in the fall as an extra course. To keep things manageable, they encourage kids to work on their apps during the summer to the extent possible. This can be done as the common app and many others are out by mid-summer.</p>
<p>I told my D that I would pay for whatever apps - including, of course, the essays - she got done by a certain date. The fees for any apps done later would be on her. It worked -- the calendar did the nagging, not me. </p>
<p>One school had waived the app fee to encourage her to apply, and I paid for two.</p>
<p>She paid for the final one, plaintively asking as she completed it, "Do I have to write my own check?" To which I politely responded, "You can see if they'll accept your credit card instead." </p>
<p>I plan to use the same strategy with my S. Saved lots of stress (and a bit of money!)</p>