<p>Blairt this is where the NYC privates rank according to Peterson's. #1 Collegiate, #2 Trinity, #4 Brearley, #5 St.Ann's, #6 Chapin/Spence, #9 Dalton</p>
<p>you said , They used "objective data" such as % to ivies.. NO, any economist would tell you this is not OBJECTIVE data.
Most of these schools have a smaller graduating class than say, andover, exeter or choate, they have graduating class of 300+. Chapin's graduating class is 35. If you take economics, there's something called the law of marginal diminishing return. It's not a supply side thing. It's a demand side thing. Harvard might take 3 kids from trinity (why not? it's a good school). But in order for andover to maintain the same % from harvard, they need to get 30 in. Even tho harvard knows all those 30 kids are equally qualified compared to the 3 kids at Chapin, why would they admit all of them? They want diversity. they dont want freaking 30 kids from one school!! In other words, They need extra incentive for the next kid they accept
% of ivy matrics favor small schools, which most of the school you listed are.</p>
<p>Just make it easier for you, a school with only 2 kids. both get 2400 on the SATs and got into harvard. Is it valid for the school to say, oh well, our average SAT score's 2400 and harvard matric rate is 100%..we are better than horace Mann, exeter and all those top schools in the nation? heck no
or if you start a school with 100000 people, and provide them all with the same quality of education one would get at andover, do you actually think 30000 of them would get into ivies? no only there arent even 30000 spots in the ivies, ivies dont want to take 30000 from the same school anyway.... i just magnified the cases to show you the economics behind </p>
<p>in conclusion: using percentage of ivy matric and average SAT scores strongly favor small schools...any economic analyst or statistician could easily point that out</p>
<p>Trinity: Graduating class of 105
Collegiate: Graduating class of 119
brearley: Graduating class of 56
Chapin: Graduating class of 35
spence: Graduating class of 42
Dalton: Graduating class of 111</p>
<p>and now, the boarding schools
Andover: Graduating class of 309
Exeter: Graduating class of 330
Choate: Graduating class of 241
Hotchkiss: Graduating class of 157 (180 this year we overenrolled)</p>
<p>Yeah, yeah, yeah...but if you are attending one of those NYC schools the bottom line is simple: you have a higher % shot at an Ivy.</p>
<p>In fact, we often talk about the legacies, hooks and children of faculty at the BS taking up all (or very many) of the available slots for many Ivies...up to that artificial demand-side ceiling you accurately describe. But if you're at a small school with no such ceiling, you've got a shot even if there are other people in your class with hooks, etc.</p>
<p>I agree that it's not a fair way to rate how well schools educate people because of the ceiling that the top boarding schools hit up against. On the other hand, if one is obsessed with the Ivy matric stats, then the bottom line is simple...and the ranking is accurate...you've got a better shot at an Ivy from the NYC day schools than you do from a top BS.</p>
<p>It's all just silly bickering over facts that don't even approach revealing the important answer to the better question of "Which school is best for me (or my child)?" But if we must play Ivyopoly, I think your argument about the artificial ceiling only helps make the case that playing the NYC prep school token is more likely to give you the equivalent of the "Take A Walk On The Boardwalk" card.</p>
<p>bearcats, you crack me up. It is what it is. The fact that these schools are so selective and desirable and don't accept over 300 students means that the students who do get the opportunity to attend are exceptional. Like I said in an earlier post it's easier to get admitted to Harvard than one of these schools. What are the odds of getting admitted to a top boarding school? For a tt NYC private the odds are 20:1! </p>
<p>Looking at your list, Hotchkiss's graduating class is in the same ballpark as Trinity, Collegiate, and Dalton. Yet, Hotchkiss isn't close to any of these schools in matriculation to the elite colleges. One of these boarding schools did crack the top ten. So, maybe that one is just simply better than the rest.</p>
<p>Lastly, academic excellence has nothing to do with class size. There are many other 2nd and 3rd tier privates in NYC with the same small class sizes, but they aren't close in SAT scores and Matriculation to the elite universities. This schools are world renowned and coveted by the elite universities, because of their academic excellence.</p>
<p>Very interesting discussion. I think it would also be interesting to see how competative some of these NYC day schools are to get into. My guess, and it is just a guess, is that places like Dalton, Spence, etc take a smaller % of kids that apply than Andover/Exeter/Deerfield. However, having said that, I think trying to compare these schools to BS really is an apples to oranges comparison. Schools like Spence, Chapin, Collegiate, Dalton, etc. are significantly smaller than an Andover or an Exeter, don't have nearly the course, selection, sports, extracurricular activities, diversity of student population or facilities that the BS have.</p>
<p>Also, you need to be very careful comparing ivy league admit rates between the two. Although BS certainly have their share of very wealthy, legacy and even child of celebrity students, the private day schools in NYC are even more heavily skewed towards these type of kids. For example, I went to one of these schools in the early 70's (it only went through 8th grade) but it is very comparable to Dalton, Chapin, etc. Of the 34 kids in my class, we had children of some of the wealthiest and most prestigious families in NY. (Still not sure what I was doing there). One was the son of a Greek shipping magnate. Another's father was head of a famous publishing house. A third was a direct decendent of John Winthrop and a 7th generation legacy at Harvard. Every kid in my class went away to BS. I think about 1/2 of our class ended up at either Andover, Exeter, Choate, Deerfield, or SP or Hotchkiss.</p>
<p>For better or worse, admission to the Ivy League is not based solely on merit and having those kind of connections behind you certainly doesn't hurt your chances.</p>
<p>Shannyc - our posts crossed. But one thing to keep in mind is that many of these schools start in 1st grade or kindergarten. So while they may be tremendously competative, how easy is it to differentiate between 5 year olds? What you basically have at these schools is a bunch of kids who showed tremendous promise at fingerpainting, coloring and stacking colored blocks on top of each other; and who had the good sense to be born to very wealthy and powerful parents.</p>
<p>That's a good point, too, prpdd. But doesn't that also speak to how well the school prepares these students...as opposed to cherry-picking the best and the brightest as they go into and through their HS years?</p>
<p>Hasn't anyone figured out that this could go back and forth forever and we'll never reach an objective conclusion? That's fine. I'm in this for fun because it's interesting. I have no dog in this fight, but I hope we're all on the same page that this debate is for sport and that there are no spoils. If anyone is seriously vested in this, I'll bow out as I don't feel the call to alienate anyone over something this meaningless.</p>
<p>This is interesting and fun...and nothing more, agreed?</p>
<p>Don't disagree at all. In fact, I would say the most academically challenging school I went to was my grade school - and I attended a pretty good BS, an Ivy League Univ. and law school.:) </p>
<p>I think ultimately you and I share the same opinion that "the best" boarding school is a meaningless concept. In fact, many characteristics by which a school defines itself are inherently double sided. A small school has certain inherent advantages - and disadvantages. Same for a large school. Single sex/coed. Urban/rural. All possess plusses and minuses. Ultimately its about finding the school that's the best fit for an individual. Nearly all the schools that are being discussed on this thread have committed teachers and will offer a prospective student an excellent education.</p>
<p>D'yer Maker, I couldn't agree with you more, and frankly I would be afraid to at this point even if I did. This debate is totally for sport. </p>
<p>prpdd, did you attend Buckly, St.Bernard's, or Allen Stevenson? Also, I don't know how it was when you attended school in the 70's, but the admission process is very competitive for these 4 year olds. First, the kids have to take the ERB exam. If the child doesn't score a 98 or better that child is already out the running for the tt schools. Then the student has to visit each school where they are observed, tested, and interviewed. Also, the preschool that the student attended has to send a school report to each school. This report is a detail description of the student's aptitude, behavior, and potential. Lastly, the parents have to be interviewed by each school. This interview may not get your child in, but it can certainly keep your child from getting admitted. And, after all this the director of admissions have to choose from many qualified applicants.</p>
<p>and you totally missed my point. Given the existing class size..it's easier for the smaller school to maintain a higher % than the bigger schools. IT's a SIZE BIAS, if you take stats, and it's a function of LAW OF DIMINISHING MARGINAL UTILITY if you take econ. so your point about OBJECTIVE DATA is invalid</p>
<p>and btw i m out of this debate i cant believe i m skipping spanish right now to talk here... but HEY IT's SENIOR SPRING..'</p>
<p>Oops, before I leave, just my last point. Stop obsessing over ivies. I got into Wharton, but i am going to Michigan Ross...DAMN, hotchkiss just lost 0.8% of the ivy matric percentage for next year... I suck</p>
<p>I was talking about the 157 class size you mentioned. This year's class size wouldn't be a factor in determing the Peterson's list I'm referencing.</p>
<p>One point that hasn't been mentioned in this thread is the difference in financial aid levels between the nyc day schools and top boarding schools. It's about 18 to 20 percent for day, 30-35 percent and up for boarding. In my daughter's case this year, that made a big difference. She got into two really good NYC days with zero FA, for example, and got a 70 percent FA package at a top boarding school. The situation with my son was even more marked two years ago. Applying as a FA student, he got waitlisted at a bunch of NYC days, got some money from one NYC day, but got into six boarding schools with FA packages ranging from about 60 to 75 percent. The uphsot is that boarding schools may be more economically diverse. At least that's our experience. </p>
<p>I'm a long-time lurker and first-time poster. Thanks to you all for your wisdom and kindness. I've learned a lot.</p>
<p>"I was talking about the 157 class size you mentioned. This year's class size wouldn't be a factor in determing the Peterson's list I'm referencing."</p>
<p>i swear to god this is my last post...jeez why am i back
anyway
that's stilll more than 30 close to 40% difference. In statistics, a P-Value of0.05 difference is considered statistically significant. that's 5%.</p>
<p>randomnyc, your post is very educational. I had no idea such a difference existed between the two types of schools. Thanks for your input.</p>
<p>bearcats, where do I start with you? Don't you see it's not about class size? Trinity's and Collegiate's class sizes almost triple that of Chapin and they still rank ahead. Dalton is in the top 10, with a class size almost triple that of Chapin. Hotchkiss is closer to T,C,and D than they are to Chapin in class size. Yet, Hotchkiss doesn't rank close to them.</p>
<p>andover
1500 - 5 year period
488 at ivy/stan/mit = 32.5%</p>
<p>Wow, even with so many kids at so few colleges, Andover is maintains the same percentage as a tiny school w/ lots of skewing.</p>
<p>My point is, not only do the top boarding schools offer infinitely more opportunities (archeology dig on a New Mexican reservation, studying local bird species in an ornithology class, famous writers in residence, presidential candidates come to visit each election, writing for a highly respected paper, meeting people from 30 countries and 50 states, every socioeconomic bracket...) than a cloistered NYC day school, but they also send the same % of kids to the most selective colleges, even though it's a huge amount of kids to accommodate! So, no matter what your logic is, if it's the sheer number of opportunities and enrichment or if it's getting into an ivy......the top BS's win.</p>
<p>Blairt, it's silly to suggest that bs offer more opportunities than a nyc day school, they have everything you mentioned, (except the 50 states), and more using NYC as an educational tool. And, you used one bs, probably the one with the best stats. Btw, it still ranks percentage points behind Chapin.</p>