<p>I would like to point out that none of these issues are unique to NYU, or NYC, or even a BFA theater major. Big dreams carry big risk… </p>
<p>I’m one who doesn’t care what my kids major in. Many worry about theater majors not being practical, etc. (not really this crowd on the MT Major forum so much, LOL). I figure the kids get a college education and that can equip them for many sorts of jobs and so what their major is will not be the determining factor. Granted, if they hope and want to work in theater, it is difficult, but so are many fields. With a degree, they still can get many sorts of jobs and it is not only about being cast in a show. </p>
<p>I agree that this discussion isn’t truly unique to NYU or theater majors or NYC. </p>
<p>But there are subtle things in those areas that might add to the “chancy” odds of making a go of it…</p>
<p>One is that NYC is an expensive place to live, though I have seen my kid live there on a pretty low income and so it is doable.</p>
<p>One is that NYU is a very expensive college, but either some parents can afford it, some get a nice FA package (as did the girl in the article) or some parents have loans or some students have loans. Students with loans have a more challenging road, but this is not specific to NYU. </p>
<p>Theater majors, IF they are hoping to perform, well, it is different than other careers in that most jobs are very short term and very competitive. But it is not easy for many other fields of course. </p>
<p>"As long as my daughter is doing all she can to secure work in her field and I have the ability to help her out, I don’t have any qualms about giving her whatever assistance I can. "</p>
<p>That gets old when things aren’t working out and it’s been awhile even if the person is doing all s/he can to secure work in the field and the parent has the ability to help out. It can become a tense situation when the parents who felt that way on the onset begins to get tired of this and/or begins to believe this is not good for their children either. </p>
<p>And yes, none of these issues are unique to the arts or specific location, however, the arts and NYC seem to be particularly intense. I have one child who could not turn on dime, jump on an opportunity, make the connections like my actor son, but he has a STEM degree and is very successful in his field, already making close to 6 figures at a young age. He has talents that are sought after in his field but wouldn’t work in the arts. The fact of the matter is that there is an acute shortage of those who have the ability and want to go into STEM fields, and a huge surplus of those wanting to go into theatre or any other form of the arts. </p>
<p>There are some folks my age out there still living on their parents’ money; some of them are finding themselves in dire straits and fearing the future as they are used to living well, but the end of the line is coming. THeir parent’s funds have run out and they, themselves are getting old and they never got self sufficient because they did not have to do so. When you come from a truly wealthy family, it’s one thing, but when there is a bottom to the money bag that does not fit your life span, it can be a serious problem. </p>
<p>My one friend whose daughter spent 8 years trying to break into the theater scene into a cycle of self sufficiency and did not still is very upset about having to withdraw the support and force her DD into something where she could make a living wage without much supplementation from the parents. It just did not work out for her, and though the parents could have carried her for while longer, there came that time. </p>
<p>I 'd have loved to have supported my son more. In truth, he carried us in his choice of college which was relatively low cost and required no loans, and in his ability to find jobs to meet his expenses. I wish I could buy him a place in the city so he didn’t have the monthly rent to meet each month, which I know has not always been easy for him to meet. Oh, how I wish. And I wish I had connections and contacts, that could make all of the difference. So I well know that those parents who have the means, whether through money or contacts, often will give, and those kids, if they have the same gumption and talent are going to be that much ahead in this very competitive arena. </p>
<p>It’s nice that each family can do what they feel comfortable doing with respects to their children. I will never be able to buy an apartment for my child, but if there is a family that can and wants to, then bless them for being willing and able to provide such wonderful gift. I hope I will always be in a position to share my good fortune with my child/grandchildren/parents etc if they ever need my help. </p>
<p>So do I, Bisouu, as I said in my above post. Wish I could do more, oh, how I so wish. There is a balance one does have to strike with help and encouragement too, however, in that if it impedes in the process of standing on one own two feet or looking for other venues after a point. And there is no such point for everyone. It varies. Sometimes going part way is not the best thing for anyone concerned. I see this with a number of people my age, again, as I said .</p>
<p>I guess you have to know your kid and whether your help will hinder or deter their progress in the business. Our kids are lucky we all are so invested in their success. They better thank us in their Tony acceptance speeches!</p>
<p>Irrespective of support…I wonder… how long do you think is too long to “give it a try”? 8 years (as mentioned above) does seem like a long time. I would love to see statistics on how long most bfa holders (of any type- music/dance/film are tough beats too) try to “make it” before they pursue other venues. It is one of the reasons I feel most strongly about a college degree from a respected institution. </p>
<p>I was just perusing a program from a Broadway show, and yes, Bisouu, there are a number of "thank yous, love yous, to mom and dad. Made me smile and want to hug those parents. </p>
<p>How long is too long? I have no idea and it differs from person to person, both parent and child, and situation and even in time with the same characters. It’s like nailing jello to a tree. I guess the time is when the supporter and or supportee come to that conclusion, in most cases, but in some cases it goes too long, or not long enough. I wish there were a way to tell. Though many of us wouldn’t necessarily believe it anyways. </p>
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<p>I feel the same. But the key word here, in my view, is “NEED” my help. That is different than expecting it and relying on it instead of trying to make it on their own. My kids, even as adults, are my first priority and so if they ever needed anything, I’m there for them. But they were expected to support themselves once they were done with school. It hasn’t been an issue. They also believe that it’s up to them to support themselves. Of course we would not let our kids suffer if they were unable to do this for some reason. But the fact is, they have always found ways to earn money when on their own. They don’t see it as an option to just not work hard and let the parents pay their way. So, even though I agree that I will share my good fortunes with my kids, it will not be instead of their ability and efforts to do so themselves. I may pay for something they can’t afford that is not a necessity so to speak or what not. </p>
<p>As far as how long to give this field a go in NYC…well, I am thinking of this question NOT in relation to one’s parents supporting them in the meantime (because I don’t think that is in the best interests of young adults and they should be working toward independence)…so assuming they are on their own and trying to make a living…I think they need to give it several years. My daughter said this recently as it takes that long to build up networking and build up lesser credits and so on. But again, she is not relying on just getting cast in shows. She has been consistently cast in shows for the past 13 months and will be for the next four months but wasn’t always cast the first four years out of college. But in her case, she is involved in so many different things and various facets of the field and so is not relying on just getting cast in theater productions. Currently, her three careers are going well, but each one has taken several years to build up. She has worked in theatre and music the entire five years since graduating, but some of these jobs were survival jobs and she was not always cast in something. She always was performing, however, because she performs in various capacities for free as well. She says she sees many peers who did not give it enough time (she graduated five years ago) and gave up. But she also thinks some people are waiting for the audition Gods to come through and not taking initiative to create various opportunities for themselves. </p>
<p>I don’t know the specifics of your friend’s D who has been at it for 8+ years and if she has had any work in the field. I suppose if none, she likely should be doing other work and still seeing what she can do on the side. I would not financially support someone who could be earning money but is still waiting for some big break and not working. </p>
<p>I guess everyone’s definition of “need” is different. I was not using it to mean my child would expect me to support her while getting her career started. Like I said, each family is different and their willingness or ability to help is a personal one. I am just stating that I will continue to help for as long as I can and for as long as she needs/ wants it. </p>
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<p>@cptofthehouse, you have over 23K posts and I have not had you on my radar at all until now. I only read things here and in the theatre thread and then dabbled a bit in a few things specific to my non theatre son’s quest this year and that may be why. I find your posts in this thread daunting but also wonderfully refreshing in their honesty. Thanks for jumping in.</p>
<p>As one still in the zone of not knowing when to stop… and my daughter is 20 and still in school, I appreciate being mindful of the path ahead. There is certainly a balance. For example just a few hours ago east coast time, I got a call from theatre daughter who was sitting on a train platform waiting for a train back to the city after opening night and all of the hoopla that went with it. Besides all of the stuff to share about the opening, she was saying that she intended to hail a cab from Penn Station home instead of her normal routine of taking the subway which wouldn’t be running anyway by the time she got in and quote: the creepy factor of who I’d walk by at my normal 1 AM goes up exponentially by 3 AM.</p>
<p>So what did I do? Instead of saying, “good luck with that and be safe” if I was completely bad-ass mom and really stuck in the zone of tough love, I did what I just had to do to sleep tonight and said, “for heaven’s sake… get a cab and not only that I’ve just moved money into your debit card account to handle it tonight and for the rest of the run of your show.” </p>
<p>I’m a softie but one with a practical edge I think. I’m also a softie who is actually letting her daughter sit on a NJ transit platform after 1 AM all by herself and live in an un-air-conditioned room in NYC this summer. I am not sure how this actually translates to my style of parenting as she pushes 30 and nor would I ever judge about that. Ask me then. Meanwhile, my kid is still a student only half way through her BFA degree. I retain the right to adjust as needed and am completely respectful of the choices that people like @cptofthehouse and others that have boldly gone before us felt made sense in them moment as well as the bravery it takes down the line to decide you need to know when to say when. Point well taken and thanks for sharing.</p>
<p>@halflokum if you hadn’t put money in her account I would have! :x </p>
<p>Most parents would have put money in her account. She’s also still a student. My business major kid has needed rent a time or two, as well. </p>
<p>The bigger picture: Give it a try and support yourself in some way at the same time can go on for a very long time. Usually, until marriage and children or an offer of a day job that’s somehow related and too good to turn down. Or, nothing is happening. That’s noticed eventually and they find their place in the world. This happens to the vast majority, btw.</p>
<p>Also, there are lots of non-drama and non-usually gainfully employed twenty-somethings living in NYC apartments on mom and dads dime so that’s not really unique to theater, either </p>
<p>halflokum, as parents, we all worry about their safety and many parents would have jumped in to help with that, as you have. Also, your daughter is still a student. Is she going to be going home at 3 AM every night during the run of her show? Wow, that is late. Whenever I visit my daughter in NYC, it brings me to the reality that she is walking home late at night after her shows and taking the subway to where she lives. When I am far away, I don’t think of it so much but seeing it in person is a scary thought for me. But it is not as late as 3 AM! If she has to go home that late, she will take a taxi. </p>
<p>I feel like the unpleasant truth is being avoided. The girl in this article - the one that went in to debt at NYU - did not just go into debt for filmmaking (a poor major in todays economy, especially at a place like NYU), but for creative writing - a terrible major in todays economy, especially at NYU. </p>
<p>I don’t know too much about theater, so I’ll keep my mouth shut on that one. But screenwriting? And filmmaking? These are both very, very, very poor choices today. The statistics of graduating students with jobs are misleading - many of them could be working in fast food. The reason I feel so sorry for this girl is because the message “college solves all” was probably hammered into her mind from a young age, so much so that she didn’t even think to consider how opting out of college or taking a gap year to pursue her craft could be the smart choice. </p>
<p>Film school today is, largely, obsolete - and for several reasons. Forty years ago when George Lucas went to USC, 35mm film was the only medium available to film with. 35mm cameras are very expensive, heavy, and difficult to maintain/operate, and a reel of 35mm film lasting more than a few minutes of rolling time could (and still does) cost thousands of dollars. Film is also easy to damage. Because of this, 35mm film was exclusively available to the very, very rich, or those in film school. If you wanted to practice real filmmaking, you had to go to film school! There was no choice. Digital camcorders for beginners did not exist. There was no such thing as kindle or nook books on filmmaking, nor were there easy to browse sites like amazon to pick the best instructional guides. Social media didn’t exist, so networking with other young people with similar interests was impossible unless you lived in a film school environment. Lastly, YouTube and the internet did not exist, so online tutorials for cinematography or critique websites and message boards for screenwriting were nonexistent. THESE were the days film school was “worth it”. This was the time the mystical, magical film school myth arose. This was the time when the pool of incoming filmmakers was significantly smaller, almost exclusively limited to prestigious college grads, and therefore kids being turned out of NYU and USC did go straight into the industry. This was the time that film school = fame and fortune. </p>
<p>Today, the film industry has expanded. Anyone, absolutely anyone, with a camera can shoot a film. With the advent of digital technology, online rental, and social media websites, you can make a decent, even great quality film for only a few thousand dollars. In essence, you could squeeze out two “Blair witch projects” or four “el mariachi’s” with one years tuition at NYU or USC. </p>
<p>Not to mention that the days film students went straight into the industry are (for the most part) dead and gone. The competition is too steep. Most, if not all, incoming directors will start out in the independent bracket, not the studio bracket, period. Budding screenwriters have a better chance, because selling your work to a studio is easier than convincing a studio to let you direct a major motion picture. Writer/director hybrids (or producer/writer hybrids) are the best off, because they can use leverage with an outstanding script to wiggle their way into a directors chair, assuming they’re talented enough to beat all the odds. The independent film industry today is beginning to sink, and only the economically savvy young people will be able to navigate it. This is a very intriguing (albeit a little sobering) article highlighting these new challenges. Even if it may seem disheartening on the surface, I think it’s information is invaluable: <a href=“http://www.salon.com/2014/02/22/americas_next_wal_mart_the_indie_film_industry/”>http://www.salon.com/2014/02/22/americas_next_wal_mart_the_indie_film_industry/</a></p>
<p>To make it in this kind of environment, you can’t shackle yourself with mounds of debt. I think students should be encouraged to give themselves a brief window where they are completely free of debt and responsibility where they can pursue their dreams full force, 110%, no breaks for classrooms or lectures. Just pure, raw ambition, working from morning till night on getting scripts written or short films made, and eventually forming connections. They need a fair shot to fly. Significant debt kills dreams. Significant debt limits a young persons ability to take risks, particularly in a naturally risky field. </p>
<p>And a final note. While many parents can’t possibly imagine their wonderful son or daughter isn’t “cut out” for the film industry (their usually kind, wonderful personalities and aptitude in traditional high school may make it impossible to doubt their skill level), both parents and their children need to realize and embrace a hard fact: success as a filmmaker or writer is dependent on talent. There are writers out there who sit down and write an Oscar winning screenplay their first try (Diablo Cody anyone?) and there are writers who buy every how-to book and take every writing seminar they can, and they still aren’t good enough. The innate, raw talent isn’t there. This inborn talent can be honed, it can be strengthened, but usually, the kind of talent it takes to really, truly “make it” as a filmmaker or screenwriter (not maintain a lower, but passable, wage) can’t be created from nothing.</p>
<p>I’m not saying any of this to discourage. I just believe parents and students owe it to themselves to test the waters before committing to a school like NYU. You don’t go to NYU right out of the gate to see if this is something for you. You don’t go to NYU to find out if you have talent. There are many, many cheaper ways to find this frightening, but absolutely necessary, information out - post a short clip on YouTube, submit a screenplay to a contest, post part of it online for critique, try to query with it, heck, even get some professional coverage ($200-$600, but far cheaper than some other options). If a kid isn’t really cut out for filmmaking or screenwriting - for whatever reason - they owe it to themselves to get a sense of that BEFORE they dump thousands of dollars into a degree they may not be able to use. I think these kids need to develop a firm, solid backup plan if things don’t work out long in advance. There’s a difference between pessimism and hopelessness, and realism. On the contrary, I think putting large sums of money into film school on the assumption things will either work out for you as a filmmaker or screenwriter - or you’re screwed - can be far more crushing and debilitating than proceeding with the knowledge that you have the power, and there ARE other options lined up for you if things don’t seem to be working.</p>
<p>It’s so much easier to pursue a field like this with confidence and courage if you have a strong safety net below you and a firm assurance of your skill beforehand. Trust me. I just don’t think sending a kid off to a very, very expensive school and waiting to see what happens is the most calculated choice. Yes, there are many, many ways to defeat debt and succeed in spite of everything (it’s ridiculous to say all hope is lost if you’ve already graduated), but it’s always better to prevent these difficulties in advance. </p>
<p>Well, that’s what I pulled from the original article. </p>
<p>abcde,
In the opening to your post, you seem to suggest that majoring in something that is not practical in today’s economy is a poor choice. Do you suggest nobody ever major in music, theater, film, English, or history, for example? I don’t see one’s major as the determinator of one’s possible career or job opportunities. One goes to college to become educated. They major in something that is an interest area. It doesn’t mean that is the only thing they will ever be able to do in terms of a career. Besides that, if nobody majored in these areas, who would then become tomorrow’s artists, writers, etc.? </p>
<p>You also go on to say that anyone can learn to do filmmaking and they don’t need an expensive college program to do it. While that may be true, a college degree often serves one well in life. It can open more doors. Besides, an educated mind is a good thing. </p>
<p>You also say one shouldn’t bother with film school or this type of degree program if they don’t have the talent or what it takes to make it. Well, these programs, such as at Tisch, are extremely selective and competitive for admission and the schools do weigh the artistic talent of the applicants. This is no guarantee that those admitted will eventually be successful in the field, but it is a “cut” of sorts of those who may have the potential to make it. There is a talent cut off at the point of college admission to such selective programs.</p>
<p>I’m not advocating debt, and no matter the major, I am not one who favors students going into much debt (a little perhaps). I am of the value system that education is something one provides for their offspring. But one thing I am not into is tying this debt issue to the college major. I think the debt issue is one for most people, no matter the major. </p>
<p>I, like many parents participating on this Musical Theater Majors forum, fully support my kid majoring in the arts and pursuing it as a career. Paying for her to attend NYU/Tisch was worth it to us and that was our feeling before she even graduated and is earning her living now in this field. I feel we paid for her education, and not simply job training. </p>
<p>I agree completely with @soozievt on this point “I’m one who doesn’t care what my kids major in. Many worry about theater majors not being practical, etc. (not really this crowd on the MT Major forum so much, LOL). I figure the kids get a college education and that can equip them for many sorts of jobs and so what their major is will not be the determining factor. Granted, if they hope and want to work in theater, it is difficult, but so are many fields. With a degree, they still can get many sorts of jobs and it is not only about being cast in a show.”</p>
<p>I also agree that ALL college students should avoid debt if at all possible, no matter what the major is.</p>
<p>I completely disagree with @abcde11 that a college degree is worthless which seems to be his/her main thesis.</p>
<p>Someone asked about the costs for living in NYC for a new graduate. My D graduated a year ago with a musical theatre degree and has been supporting herself for the past year. She is still on our insurance and our family cellphone plan so she doesn’t have these expenses. She lives on the upper upper west side and is only 2 blocks from the subway. The neighborhood she lives in is mostly working class families and a lot of students and new grads in theatre or the arts. </p>
<p>Her rent is $850 a month and she shares a two bedroom with a friend in a 5 floor walkup. My D is a nanny for a family with 2 school aged children on the UWS. She also does babysitting for a toddler in the West Village. D’s share for electric is about $40 a month, but going up to around $60 in the summer when they run the air. Internet is expensive and I think her share is $20 or more per month. They have a tv with an antenna, no cable as this is not something D or her roommate can afford. Monthly subway pass is $112. D is a vegetarian (sometimes vegan) so grocerices which are lots of fresh vegetables, fruits, etc run $50-$60 per week. Personal items (shampoo, cleaning supplies, paper products, etc) I think run about $40 or more per month. This adds up to $1,300, but does not include eating out or money for entertainment. My D does like to eat out occasionally and go out with friends so I would probably add another $40 per week for that as well as doing “pay what you can” yoga 4 times a week which costs another $40 per month. I would add in an additional $100 per month to cover laundry and replacing clothes/shoes only as needed. So I think this all comes to $1,600 per month. I would say this is really the minimum needed to survive. If your kids are willing to share rooms after graduation D has friends that pay rents of $500 or less per month and are living with 4 or more people in 2 bedroom apartments!</p>
<p>My D makes enough to support herself and has even been able to save a bit since she graduated. My D’s afternoon nanny job starts at 3 so she is able to audition some days. D grocery shops and prepares dinner for the kids each evening and tutors the elementary and middle school aged kids. The family that hired her wanted a college graduate that could look after the kids and take them to afterschool activities, run errands, cook, tutor and drive!</p>
<p>Thank you so much @showmom858 this was really helpful to get some concrete details. </p>
<p>@showmom858 yes, thank you! Glad to see entertainment and exercise in the budget! </p>